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originally posted by: DrogoTheNorman
If you read the New Testament thoroughly, it would appear that faith in Jesus is sufficient to be "saved". But wait...what about the book of James that seems to say that faith is not sufficient, that works also are needed for salvation.
I realize this subject has been debated for centuries. If you wish to comment, please cite evidence for why you believe the way you do.
1 Cor 3:12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
John 15:4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
1 John 1:6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
originally posted by: Ghost147
a reply to: ketsuko
I don't see why anyone who doesn't believe in a god would hate the thing they don't believe in. Do you hate Zeus, Odin, Ra, Krishna, or any other gods you don't believe in?
faith is sufficient to be saved. but if there is time; works are required to prove fidelity.
originally posted by: DrogoTheNorman
If you read the New Testament thoroughly, it would appear that faith in Jesus is sufficient to be "saved". But wait...what about the book of James that seems to say that faith is not sufficient, that works also are needed for salvation.
I realize this subject has been debated for centuries. If you wish to comment, please cite evidence for why you believe the way you do.
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
That goes back to one of the biggest slams on Catholics. They can do anything they want (Think Mafia) and as long as they confess and ask for forgiveness they're going to heaven. Now with a clean slate they can deal in prostitution and drugs and wack a few people and again...next Sunday all will be forgiven. Rinse and repeat until death-see you in Heaven.
If you read the New Testament thoroughly, it would appear that faith in Jesus is sufficient to be "saved"
originally posted by: DISRAELI
An edited version of my own post on the subject (James ch2);
We know from the rest of the letter that James values Faith highly- this was clear from the opening verses.
But this question ("what does it profit?") is not addressed at the man who has Faith.
It is addressed at the man who says he has Faith, which is not the same thing.
So the following question, “Can his Faith save him?”, really means “Can this merely spokenFaith save him?”
In the previous chapter, James was explaining the need to be “doers” of the Word, not hearers only.
It seems to me that he’s making a similar point in this chapter, that we need to be “doers” of the Faith, not speakers only.
He illustrates the difference in the next two verses;
If you want someone to be warm and clothed, the “warming and clothing” which is merely said is completely ineffective- “does not profit”.
The intention isn’t fulfilled until the “warming and clothing” is actively done.
If we follow this analogy through, it leads to the conclusion that merely spoken Faith is ineffective, that Faith needs to be “done”.
So that must be the real meaning of the statement in v17; merely spoken Faith (“Faith by itself”) does not bring life (“is dead”). The only kind of Faith that brings life is the ”done” Faith, the activated Faith which James calls “works”.
V18. which begins with a “But”, is not an objection to the previous verse, but another answer to v14’s “man who says he has Faith”.
“You say that you have Faith, but you don’t have works…
But someone will say…”
… the viewpoint expressed by “someone” is not the logical opposite of v14; he is NOT saying “I have works without Faith”.
His argument really extends to the end of the verse, and it’s taking the form;
“You say that you have Faith-
But I have Faith as well.
The difference between us is that I can prove it, and you can’t”.
The contrast given is between showing Faith without works, and showing Faith by means of works.
So the function of “works” here is to be the evidence for the existence of Faith, and what James is offering is another reason why “saying” should be followed by “doing”.
…
In the rest of the chapter, James claims to show that men are “justified by works”.
Yet the two episodes he quotes to illustrate this point are both cited in Hebrews ch11 as examples of Faith.
How can the same two episodes be examples of “Faith” in Hebrews, and examples of “works” in James?
I think we come back to the point that Faith hinges upon trust.
But “trust” is another quality which needs to be done, not merely said.
The man who walks across a bridge is showing a much more genuine trust than the man who says “I believe that bridge will hold my weight”, and stays where he is.
These two episodes are examples of “trustful action”.
But Hebrews gives them a label (“Faith”) putting emphasis on the fact that “trust is acting”.
While the label used in James gives the emphasis that “trust is acting”.
“Works” is the action of trust, by which Faith is made real and “complete”.
Nevertheless, both writers are making the same point- that genuine trust involves walking across that bridge.
In the middle of his discussion on Abraham’s obedience, James claims (v23) that it fulfilled the scriptural declaration;
“Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (Genesis ch15 v6).
Paul is using the same verse, of course, for his own teaching on Faith and works found in Romans and Galatians.
It’s noteworthy, and notorious, that Paul and James make opposite-sounding statements about this verse.
Paul relies upon it for his claim that Abraham was justified by his Faith.
Yet James is using the same verse as part of his argument that men are justified by their works
However, we mustn’t allow this verbal contradiction to prevent us noticing the extent of their agreement.
They both agree on the importance of that verse.
They both appreciate the significance of the fact that Abraham believed in the promise God made him.
In short, they agree on the starting-point of Abraham’s righteousness.
James is not going to accept that Abraham was justified “by Faith alone”.
Presumably this is because “Faith by itself”, in this discussion, has meant merely spoken Faith, which James has been condemning as insufficient, not the real thing.
His argument has been that genuine Faith needs to be carried forward into action.
But that’s exactly what Abraham has been doing, if we take these two Genesis chapters together.
In ch15, he believed God’s promise, which was the foundation of his righteousness.
In ch22, that belief was carried forward into obedience, in the matter of Isaac. That’s when he “crossed the bridge”.
That’s why James says that Abraham’s obedience “fulfilled” the scripture of the earlier chapter.
That’s when his Faith was actualised, “made complete”.
“Works” is not an alternative to Faith, in this teaching, but the active ingredient of genuine Faith.
I believe that Paul and James are really talking about the same thing, a full commitment of active trust in God.
Paul calls this “justified by Faith”, for fear that works will be made a substitute for Faith.
While James calls it “justified by works”, for fear that works will be left out altogether.
James; Faith and Works