Faith vs. Works in Christianity: The Problem of the Book of James

a reply to: Xenogears
None of these other religions prophesies about the future are going to happen, when bibles do, then what ?

Your points are irrelevant to the totality of the discussion on faith and works toward the God that asks for them.

In the future every human needs to be astute in observing how world events are relating to bible based prophesy unfolding right before them, if they think it's all a fairy tail and just an amazing coincidence because now they see it with there own eyes, but relegate it to "well even a broken clock is correct twice a day", that type of reasoning will cost people there lives when judgement arrives. Thus the point of switching gears with spontaneous faith with works being extremely difficult with the modern mindset that is so ingrained with doubt and ridicule.

a reply to: ketsuko

No see you are misunderstanding the definition of the word "unconditional". If you don't love the people who hate you, you are putting a condition on your love. Loving unconditionally means that you love someone, anyone regardless of the circumstances surrounding that person. This has nothing to do with discipline. I didn't say you can't love someone and not discipline them (though I can argue that god takes it a bit too far and into the abusive parent territory), but not loving someone because they hate you is a condition on the love you are giving out.

If god is true to his word about loving unconditionally, then god must also love satan just as much as he loves jesus, which should be just as much as you or even me as an agnostic. THAT is unconditional love.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Nearly right
You ignore justice
Justice must be served

Unconditional love is an accurate statement but justice must be undertaken

Gods love is unconditional but it must be accepted, deny it and you don't receive it

You say it is unconditional and then deny it

Twilight stuff

a reply to: Raggedyman

Gods love is unconditional but it must be accepted, deny it and you don't receive it

Then it violates the definition of "unconditional" and is hence not unconditional love. When you start adding "if... then" statements to your love then you are adding conditions. "if... then" statements are known as conditional statements. The definition of unconditional is NO conditions.

Your statement is such:
"if you don't love god and reject him, then god doesn't return love." That is a condition. You can try to rationalize around this all you want, but definitions are definitions. And that's what unconditional means. I know you want to fit a narrative of "justice must be served" where we can rationalize violence into a peace loving philosophy but that is hypocritical. Though only you can come to terms with this. If you don't want to believe me here, there is nothing I can say to make you change your mind since I'm using the dictionary definition of unconditional and all.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Salvation is given only to those who serve God
Faith is the seed, works are the evidence, just believing is not enough

It's not faith vs works, it's faith and works, they go hand in hand
Demons believe in the one God, their works are the evidence of their salvation.

Believing is not enough, Christians must show the evidence of their salvation

First faith then works, they a pair. One is spiritual the other the evidence.
The OPs assumption is false, they don't contend with each other, they are not at odds

No doubt an atheist will call the no true Scotsman argument, fortunately it's invalid as their opinion is irrelevant to Gods judgement

Yet Jesus told the thief on the cross "You will be with Me in paradise this day." That person never had time to do any works. So I guess he must have been saved by faith alone?

a reply to: DrogoTheNorman

Perhaps he was saved because He spoke to Jesus directly... he asked Jesus to remember him...

And HE knew all men's hearts...

Thus, that would be repentance... Not Faith

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: DrogoTheNorman

Perhaps he was saved because He spoke to Jesus directly... he asked Jesus to remember him...

And HE knew all men's hearts...

Thus, that would be repentance... Not Faith

One has to have faith in order to repent. Plus, if you believe, then you believe you can speak to Jesus in your spirit and He will hear you.

a reply to: DrogoTheNorman

So an atheist can not repent?

I think you best take that up with one of them... pretty sure theres a few on this thread

Its a condition of the heart... not faith in God

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: DrogoTheNorman

So an atheist can not repent?

I think you best take that up with one of them... pretty sure there's a few on this thread

Its a condition of the heart... not faith in God

The thread is Faith vs Works in Christianity.
So no, in context to the topic of the thread "Faith vs. Works in CHRISTIANITY" an atheist cannot in fact repent and still be an atheist.
Context is King.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: DrogoTheNorman

So an atheist can not repent?

I think you best take that up with one of them... pretty sure theres a few on this thread

Its a condition of the heart... not faith in God

If one is an atheist then repentance is undefined. Repentance implies that there is someone to repent TO.

a reply to: DrogoTheNorman

Yeah...

that would be the person said atheist wronged

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Raggedyman

Gods love is unconditional but it must be accepted, deny it and you don't receive it

Then it violates the definition of "unconditional" and is hence not unconditional love. When you start adding "if... then" statements to your love then you are adding conditions. "if... then" statements are known as conditional statements. The definition of unconditional is NO conditions.

Your statement is such:
"if you don't love god and reject him, then god doesn't return love." That is a condition. You can try to rationalize around this all you want, but definitions are definitions. And that's what unconditional means. I know you want to fit a narrative of "justice must be served" where we can rationalize violence into a peace loving philosophy but that is hypocritical. Though only you can come to terms with this. If you don't want to believe me here, there is nothing I can say to make you change your mind since I'm using the dictionary definition of unconditional and all.

As you understand it
God is a God of justice, justice must be carried out

God has unconditional love, if you reject it, unconditional love won't force itself

Your argument is not unconditional love, it's force

I offer you money to pay a debt, you hate me so refuse the help.
Is it unconditional love to impose myself my money on you unconditional love
to leave you alone, accept your bitterness

Your argument is valid to you, just doesn't make it valid to everyone.

You say violence, is hanging a murderer violence or justice?

You chose your own morals

a reply to: DrogoTheNorman

You have taken one exception, yes the thief did repent and was saved

Did the thief have the chance to show his works.
The argument is invalid

a reply to: Raggedyman

Some folks demand that God impose his himself... a "cuddle with a struggle" so to speak.
I am always hesitant to invest the time to articulate the idea of God, being a God of Love, a God of Justice and a Holy God to people who really have no intention of understanding anyway.

Mark 4:7-12
7. And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
8. And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.
9. And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10. And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12. That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Jesus talks of carrying our own cross
Jesus stated we must lose our lives to gain it in Him.
Effectively a reorientation of our lives

We are called to deny earthly reward, risk pain, uncomfortable even death.
The works are real.
Read the Fruit of the Spirit, they are the works Christians must undertake, must submit to

Repentance must come with a change of heart, love where hate once grew, compassion instead of turning away, peace stead of anger
Yes works prove salvation

The message of Jesus was faith WITHOUT works is dead. He gave us two rules to follow, Love God... Love your neighbors as yourself. If Christianity confuses you its because of that false prophet (confirmed by Jesus) Saul the Pharisee. Thomas Jefferson said that Jesus Christ was the greatest moral teacher in history. He wasn't even a Christian. He also said the first corruptor of the teachings of Jesus was Saul the Pharisee. Wise man. I didn't notice this until I read the bible cover to cover and studied it daily over a year. Even my notes suggest it took me a while to figure out. Anyone interested ther is a website called problemswithpaul and its on point. I do my own writings on him. There can only be 12 Apostles, if you pay attention. 12 is a sacred number. Even when joseph split into Ephraim and Mannassah they were only half tribes. 12 represents governmental perfection. Notice Jesus makes an odd reference to Balaam in Revelation? That's Saul hes referring to, and he wont even use his name. Remember what Saulsaid at sanhedrin? I am a PPharisee. He was telling the truth for onve.

Anyone who thinks God sends people to hell for choosing the wrong religion is borderline insane and insulting God by calling him evil. God doesn't punish good people.

a reply to: Akragon

Atheists don't have to repent. God doesn't show his face so how is that an atheists fault

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

No he is right. The bible is a lesson in ancient philosophy, but it is not a history book about things that really happened. The Israelites were never enslaved in Egypt and even they admit it.YYou don't sspend 400 years in Egypt and not write about the pyramids, its unbelievable. The details of the arks and Solomon's mythical temple but not a word on the most fascinating thing ever built? Yeah right.

originally posted by: Gnosisisfaith
a reply to: Akragon

Atheists don't have to repent. God doesn't show his face so how is that an atheists fault

Yes He did, Jesus came