Faith vs. Works in Christianity: The Problem of the Book of James

originally posted by: stormbringer1701



you do have points but you are missing the fact that as you cannot be a carpenter if you never swing a hammer you cannot be a Christian if you do not heed his teachings. (heeding his teachings or commands is doing his works even if it is as simple as loving everyone else as you love yourself.) And if you are not a christian then you cannot rightly claim his blood to cover your sins. or perhaps more apt; he will not advocate for you before the judge.

I think you are saying "you cannot be a Christian unless you act like one" and I am saying "if you are a Christian you will act like one." It sounds like two sides of the same coin, but I am saying if your faith is genuine you will be motivated to do the will of God and perform good works. It sounds like you are saying that unless those good works are present then you cannot claim to be a Christian.

originally posted by: DrogoTheNorman

originally posted by: stormbringer1701



you do have points but you are missing the fact that as you cannot be a carpenter if you never swing a hammer you cannot be a Christian if you do not heed his teachings. (heeding his teachings or commands is doing his works even if it is as simple as loving everyone else as you love yourself.) And if you are not a christian then you cannot rightly claim his blood to cover your sins. or perhaps more apt; he will not advocate for you before the judge.

I think you are saying "you cannot be a Christian unless you act like one" and I am saying "if you are a Christian you will act like one." It sounds like two sides of the same coin, but I am saying if your faith is genuine you will be motivated to do the will of God and perform good works. It sounds like you are saying that unless those good works are present then you cannot claim to be a Christian.

faith alone does not insure you even know what the works of Jesus are. all well and good. but you could sin gravely and not even know you were transgressing. put it this way Falwell, Baker and a host of others (who most assuredly knew Jesus's word) were not prevented from sin by their faith. They failed at least for a time egregiously. The lusts of our flesh are not eliminated by our faith. Our faith motivates our work but our work confirms our faith.

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: DrogoTheNorman

originally posted by: stormbringer1701



you do have points but you are missing the fact that as you cannot be a carpenter if you never swing a hammer you cannot be a Christian if you do not heed his teachings. (heeding his teachings or commands is doing his works even if it is as simple as loving everyone else as you love yourself.) And if you are not a christian then you cannot rightly claim his blood to cover your sins. or perhaps more apt; he will not advocate for you before the judge.

I think you are saying "you cannot be a Christian unless you act like one" and I am saying "if you are a Christian you will act like one." It sounds like two sides of the same coin, but I am saying if your faith is genuine you will be motivated to do the will of God and perform good works. It sounds like you are saying that unless those good works are present then you cannot claim to be a Christian.

faith alone does not insure you even know what the works of Jesus are. all well and good. but you could sin gravely and not even know you were transgressing. put it this way Falwell, Baker and a host of others (who most assuredly knew Jesus's word) were not prevented from sin by their faith. They failed at least for a time egregiously. The lusts of our flesh are not eliminated by our faith. Our faith motivates our work but our work confirms our faith.

So what are you saying?

I agree that people still sin even though they are in the faith, but I do believe their behavior gradually, over time, conforms more and more to what Jesus wants. If you used to shoplift before becoming a believer, you may still try to do it again after becoming a believer...but this time your conscience will tell you it's a sin, and you will gradually cease doing it.

originally posted by: DrogoTheNorman

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: DrogoTheNorman

originally posted by: stormbringer1701



you do have points but you are missing the fact that as you cannot be a carpenter if you never swing a hammer you cannot be a Christian if you do not heed his teachings. (heeding his teachings or commands is doing his works even if it is as simple as loving everyone else as you love yourself.) And if you are not a christian then you cannot rightly claim his blood to cover your sins. or perhaps more apt; he will not advocate for you before the judge.

I think you are saying "you cannot be a Christian unless you act like one" and I am saying "if you are a Christian you will act like one." It sounds like two sides of the same coin, but I am saying if your faith is genuine you will be motivated to do the will of God and perform good works. It sounds like you are saying that unless those good works are present then you cannot claim to be a Christian.

faith alone does not insure you even know what the works of Jesus are. all well and good. but you could sin gravely and not even know you were transgressing. put it this way Falwell, Baker and a host of others (who most assuredly knew Jesus's word) were not prevented from sin by their faith. They failed at least for a time egregiously. The lusts of our flesh are not eliminated by our faith. Our faith motivates our work but our work confirms our faith.

So what are you saying?

I agree that people still sin even though they are in the faith, but I do believe their behavior gradually, over time, conforms more and more to what Jesus wants. If you used to shoplift before becoming a believer, you may still try to do it again after becoming a believer...but this time your conscience will tell you it's a sin, and you will gradually cease doing it.

concur.

It's common knowledge that lucifer, the demons and the antichrist know and believe in Christ

It's one thing to believe, it's another to serve Christ
Many christians tend to act like Jesus should still be serving them, though clearly we are the Gospel of Christ on the earth, servants to the world

James message is clear, calling yourself a believer comes with a responsibility
Your actions speak your faith

Israel were Gods chosen people, to often they were Jews by law and birth though they worshiped
everything else but God

James is warning the church not to be complacent, don't think that words uttered by your tongue has any value, doing Gods work is the true measure of a Christian

originally posted by: DrogoTheNorman

originally posted by: stormbringer1701



you do have points but you are missing the fact that as you cannot be a carpenter if you never swing a hammer you cannot be a Christian if you do not heed his teachings. (heeding his teachings or commands is doing his works even if it is as simple as loving everyone else as you love yourself.) And if you are not a christian then you cannot rightly claim his blood to cover your sins. or perhaps more apt; he will not advocate for you before the judge.

I think you are saying "you cannot be a Christian unless you act like one" and I am saying "if you are a Christian you will act like one." It sounds like two sides of the same coin, but I am saying if your faith is genuine you will be motivated to do the will of God and perform good works. It sounds like you are saying that unless those good works are present then you cannot claim to be a Christian.

one more shot that i can think of. Jesus and the apostles said that the law of moses/ the commandments could all be apprehended in a single commandment that we love one another as our self. it is further explained that this is because if you love someone you will not deliberately harm them. it is true that if you love someone you will not murder them, bear false witness against them, commit adultery with their spouses and so on. if you love God you won't make idols or have any other god. So it is true that the law can be summarized that way...

But what of fornication? it's hard to see how this deliberately hurts anyone. and bear in mind this is one thing that the apostles made sure to transmit as a command for converted gentiles. I assume that it went with out saying they should obey the whole ten commandments. but refraining from eating strangled meat, consuming blood and fornication were all they specified explicitly in that verse. I think that they said somewhere that fornication defiles the soul but i could be going extra-biblical there.

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
But what of fornication? it's hard to see how this deliberately hurts anyone. and bear in mind this is one thing that the apostles made sure to transmit as a command for converted gentiles.

The way I put it is that the Biblical God takes marriage very personally, as we can see from Jesus quoting Genesis. He doesn't like adultery either.
I've got a thread on the subject prepared for later in the year.

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
from the old testament: insincere sacrifice is an abomination to the lord. the sacrifice of an insincere man makes God feel as if he has just witnessed a man snap a dog's neck or bless an idol.

You're surely not trying to claim to knoe what 'God feels' are You?

Å99

originally posted by: stormbringer1701



But what of fornication? it's hard to see how this deliberately hurts anyone. and bear in mind this is one thing that the apostles made sure to transmit as a command for converted gentiles. I assume that it went with out saying they should obey the whole ten commandments. but refraining from eating strangled meat, consuming blood and fornication were all they specified explicitly in that verse. I think that they said somewhere that fornication defiles the soul but i could be going extra-biblical there.

Jesus said if you lust in your heart you've committed adultery.

a reply to: akushla99
It is the prophet Isaiah who is claiming that knowledge. I recognise the passage, though I would have to look up the exact reference.

a reply to: stormbringer1701

Hormonally speaking, it is next to impossible for a women to have no strings attached sex. The same hormones that create emotional attachments to her offspring are released during sex albeit in smaller amounts. So basically, you are indeed hurting her emotionally if you are simply hooking up with her with no real intent to commit because you mess with her emotions.

There are also studies coming out that suggest the more of these hookups a woman has, the more it messes with her ability to form serious attachments too.

And that's to say nothing of the risks associated with birth control failures, children out of wedlock and all the emotional trauma you can do to a child who grows up to split parents or single parents, STDs, etc.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: akushla99
It is the prophet Isaiah who is claiming that knowledge. I recognise the passage, though I would have to look up the exact reference.

...then it is only a claim, amongst many, in a book of claims...

Å99

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: DrogoTheNorman

If you read the New Testament thoroughly, it would appear that faith in Jesus is sufficient to be "saved"

Answered in one verse...

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Faith alone is not sufficient...

Then what is sufficient? I have read many stories of people receiving stigmata etc and the common theme for those getting closer to Jesus is an increase in physical suffering such as the case of St Gemma Galgani . This has often made me wonder about the meaning of the Gospel of Thomas verse "I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm guarding it until it blazes.".

Perhaps humankind needs to be shaken a little but if the Secret Book of John is true, perhaps the God as defined by western religions, is not the true creator, but one, that believes he is the true creator, a jealous God.

Everyone has to trust their own instinct but I felt suffering was not the road to enlightenment. When I realized Buddhism mirrored that belief, I decided to take that path, but each to their own.

a reply to: Ghost147

your fundamental understanding of Christianity is flawed...firstly, children are not doomed to hell. Althought there are differing beliefs as to what is necessary, hence, early baptism.

It also has ZERO to do with following Christianity. The belief in Jesus is the fundamental factor.

When you have truly accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, the Christian belief is that it becomes more difficult to sin, although you WILL still sin. The idea is to grow in Christ and to be penitent. Sinning the exact same way time and again is NOT being penitent...or walking in Christ.

Jaden

originally posted by: glend

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: DrogoTheNorman

If you read the New Testament thoroughly, it would appear that faith in Jesus is sufficient to be "saved"

Answered in one verse...

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Faith alone is not sufficient...

Then what is sufficient? I have read many stories of people receiving stigmata etc and the common theme for those getting closer to Jesus is an increase in physical suffering such as the case of St Gemma Galgani . This has often made me wonder about the meaning of the Gospel of Thomas verse "I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm guarding it until it blazes.".

Perhaps humankind needs to be shaken a little but if the Secret Book of John is true, perhaps the God as defined by western religions, is not the true creator, but one, that believes he is the true creator, a jealous God.

Everyone has to trust their own instinct but I felt suffering was not the road to enlightenment. When I realized Buddhism mirrored that belief, I decided to take that path, but each to their own.

Well according to Jesus Faith and works are required... This "faith alone" crowd are lost in my opinion

Jesus didn't teach faith alone... so that is Pauls doing...

The very idea is the basis of most churches... and why they are so lost, also why Christians tend to be rather unloving judgemental people from my experience with them.

Personally I think works are just as important, IF not more so then faith...

I can't see God frowning upon a good man who's always loved and helped others in his life... Only to favor a complete asshat that chooses a label for himself

Don't even get me started on the Apocryphon of John... that isn't the topic, and its one of my favorite books

originally posted by: akushla99

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
from the old testament: insincere sacrifice is an abomination to the lord. the sacrifice of an insincere man makes God feel as if he has just witnessed a man snap a dog's neck or bless an idol.

You're surely not trying to claim to knoe what 'God feels' are You?

Å99

no. God makes it clear. like a man who eats pork is like smoke in his eye.

a reply to: stormbringer1701

lol what?

So Im guessing you don't eat pork?

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: DeathSlayer

If you have faith you automatically do works without thinking about it by attempt to live a holy life

Its actually a shame this isn't true

you know the road is narrow

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: stormbringer1701

lol what?

So Im guessing you don't eat pork?

actually i am pretty sure that the passage would be more understandable with (Jewish) before the word man. On the other hand if that is how he feels in general about eating pork then most Christians are in trouble. Mainstream interpretation of Peter's vision not withstanding. For Jews eating pork is a religious law sin. for anyone else it is a health law sin. a sin against one's self. One thing for sure if we are allowed to eat pork it does not stem from Peter's vision but from the fact that Christians are not bound by Jewish ritual cleanliness laws and ordinances because we (most of us) were never Jews and were never bound by that law to begin with.

It's in Isaiah Where God is about to put the beat down on the rebellious Jews:

A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;

5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.