Community rallies behind 6-year-old transgender girl

a reply to: Freija

Then how come the Karolinska institute says that post transition transsexuals are at the highest risk of self harm? It kind of contradicts what you just said. I mean yours is nothing but anecdotal "testimonies" so they are essentially nothing. Amazing you somehow know the inner workings of every gender dysphoric child and the working of their household. What color shirt am I wearing?

originally posted by: pompel9
Strange, you are calling me friend in the first paragraph and then goes on to personal attack in the second paragraph. Friends do not attack each other.

Transitioning is not taking on clothes of the opposite gender. That is cross-dressing.
Nowhere in the OP does it state that the girl (according to you now, still a boy) is still a boy. You wrote that the boy has transitioned to a girl, which obviously means surgery. Now you are saying that the girl has not received any surgery, making him still a boy.
That is why I asked you to clarify your OP, instead of doing so you attacked me.

I apologize if you took what I said or my tone as an attack. It was more frustration than anything because your equating the word transition with surgery is simply not how that word is used or what it means and you've been kind of stubbornly been sticking to a nit-picky point without listening to how others have tried to explain it to you.

This child has made a social transition. She is known by a different name, identity and is referred to as a she and not a him. I'm not sure how to make this any more clear?

originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: Anosognosia
a reply to: kaylaluv

Regarding the suicide thing, are you saying that there are a lot of cases with 6 year old's committing suicide? Or committing suicide due to gender identity issues?

Excuse me for stepping in here if I may? Suicide, or the potential of it even in young children is what usually finally gets a parent motivated enough to seek professional assistance and take seriously what their children are telling them. Not many details are provided about the child in the OP, which is good thing for reasons of privacy but it was noticed by teachers and parents she was exhibiting signs of depression and anxiety at least a year prior to her transition. When you think that a young child that age would be depressed enough to even think about dying or suicide or self-harm, you can darn well believe this issue is deeply fundamental to their existence.

Childhood is supposed to be a happy time but many of these children would rather be dead than to be something they don't feel themselves to be. I don't have actual numbers or statistics, which would be discredited by some anyway, but do know the stories, histories and testimony of some of the parents of these children who all feel this is a very serious matter and self-harm or suicide is one of their biggest fears.

Fair enough, and I totally agree that childhood should be a happy time.

At that age though, I wonder if some of that anxiety/depression is being caused by the parents themselves? Not in all cases, but it does concern me a bit.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: Annee

You missed my point entirely. This just gets back into a circular discussion about protections. Should the residents of states vote for protections for bakers etc? Anyways bit of a tangent and like I said you missed how your logic is faulty.

I'm an atheist and major supporter of separation of church and state.

My mom was a polio victim in the 51/52 epidemic. I was 5 years old. The disabled were discriminated against like any minority group businesses did not want to serve.

Prior to the Disability Act my mom was refused service and kicked out of businesses by owners/managers who did not want "her kind" in their store.

I think it's pretty clear where I stand.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: Freija

Then how come the Karolinska institute says that post transition transsexuals are at the highest risk of self harm?

Do you really not see the issue of that conclusion? They are comparing post-op transfolk with cisgender people. The suicide rate is still higher than cis people but faaaaaar lower than the entirety of the transgender demographic.

It would be like taking a group of cancer patients and a group of people without cancer. The people with cancer have a high mortality rate but you introduce them to a new treatment that lowers that mortality rate. Then you compare the test group to the people without cancer and say "See? These cancer patients with the treatment die from cancer more than people who don't have cancer"

It's a silly conclusion.

originally posted by: Anosognosia
At that age though, I wonder if some of that anxiety/depression is being caused by the parents themselves? Not in all cases, but it does concern me a bit.

Your concern is warranted. This is a massively difficult and very troubling thing to have to deal with. Parents are often very conflicted or unsure what the right thing to really do is or if they are making the right decisions that will help their child. In a family dynamic, some of this could naturally trickle into a child's perception. The decision to let their child transition, as you can imagine, makes for some tough questions and sleepless nights.

Parents have many of their own issues accepting their child could be transgender. Religious or conservative political beliefs are often in conflict and the social pressures from extended family members, friends, neighbors, co-workers and even casual acquaintances can be immense. Many parents also feel a great deal of embarrassment and sometimes unjustified self-imposed guilt that they have somehow done something wrong in raising their child. Disagreements among the parents on the best course of action can lead to separation and divorce and having a transgender child can turn into an entire flustercluck for a family.

Fortunately, having a transgender child means the involvement of medical professionals, psychiatrists, psychologists and counselors to help deal with these issues. Parents and siblings are included as part of the process to help with having their own issues addressed. Organizations like GLAAD and Gender Spectrum offer specific support and communities for parents to connect with other parents and talk about their own problems and concerns.

This is not a simple or easy thing for anyone involved.

originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: Anosognosia
At that age though, I wonder if some of that anxiety/depression is being caused by the parents themselves? Not in all cases, but it does concern me a bit.

Your concern is warranted. This is a massively difficult and very troubling thing to have to deal with. Parents are often very conflicted or unsure what the right thing to really do is or if they are making the right decisions that will help their child. In a family dynamic, some of this could naturally trickle into a child's perception. The decision to let their child transition, as you can imagine, makes for some tough questions and sleepless nights.

Parents have many of their own issues accepting their child could be transgender. Religious or conservative political beliefs are often in conflict and the social pressures from extended family members, friends, neighbors, co-workers and even casual acquaintances can be immense. Many parents also feel a great deal of embarrassment and sometimes unjustified self-imposed guilt that they have somehow done something wrong in raising their child. Disagreements among the parents on the best course of action can lead to separation and divorce and having a transgender child can turn into an entire flustercluck for a family.

Fortunately, having a transgender child means the involvement of medical professionals, psychiatrists, psychologists and counselors to help deal with these issues. Parents and siblings are included as part of the process to help with having their own issues addressed. Organizations like GLAAD and Gender Spectrum offer specific support and communities for parents to connect with other parents and talk about their own problems and concerns.

This is not a simple or easy thing for anyone involved.

Definitely not easy at all. I think in the case of a boy wanting to be a girl the issue is magnified 1000X. I wish I had some answers here, as I can see why both sides feel as strongly as they do.

a reply to: Abysha

Do you have anything to back that claim or this more speculative rhetoric? Did you read the study? How do you know who they compared the findings to?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: pompel9

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: pompel9

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: pompel9

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: pompel9

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: 123143
One must question the wisdom of permitting a child to decide its future at so young an age.

At 6 years old, no surgery is performed, no irreversible drugs are taken, so I'm not sure what you are talking about. How about the wisdom of keeping a child from being suicidal? Does that work for ya?

The OP says the child has transitioned (as in surgery). Is the OP false?

Surgery?! Are you serious?

I think that's the major disconnect and confusion here. It seems many of you think that trans kids are getting surgeries and hormones at six. Is that what is going on here? People are actually thinking this?

A transgender child gets nothing but counseling and therapy. When they are in puberty, they take a blocker which does nothing but delay their puberty (again, nothing permanent). When a bit older, they may start taking the corresponding hormone if their physicians determine that this is truly the issue. An actual surgery does not happen until much later, if at all.

I wonder how much of this outrage is because of this misunderstanding.

So the OP is misleading, and the child has not gone trough surgery?

No. What is it about the OP states that she went through a surgery?

Did you notice this sentence in the OP:

Mount Horeb, WI -- Mount Horeb Primary Center, a public elementary school where a 6-year-old student had just transitioned from a boy to a girl.

What part of "transitioned" makes you think surgery? At that age since there aren't any secondary sex characteristics on the body, it is easy to pass off as the opposite gender. Transitioning is as easy as changing clothes in this regard.

That is not transitioning. That is cross-dressing. The boy has not transitioned to a girl, because that requires surgery.

Well that was an over simplification. First off, transitioning is a process that takes years. In the case of a 6 year, it is a process that won't start the physical aspects until they are a teenager or later. But yes, at the age of six the act of transitioning is literally just changing your clothes. Oh and adopting an opposite gender name as well I guess.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. So when I state that it is cross-dressing then it's oversimplified?
You say that transitioning takes years. How can a boy then have transitioned to a girl at age 6?
And then you say in direct contradiction to your earlier statement (in the same post) that all it takes to transition is to put on clothes from the opposite sex and changing the name to fit the new gender?

a reply to: Annee

This has nothing to do with the topic at all. As a matter of fact transgender types were covered under the same act but they don't like the stigma of it being a psychiatric disorder which if you have read any of my post even the people studying this have concluded that their issues are not resolved through gender reassignment and they require a lot of therapy and aftercare like other mental disorders.

originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: pompel9
Strange, you are calling me friend in the first paragraph and then goes on to personal attack in the second paragraph. Friends do not attack each other.

Transitioning is not taking on clothes of the opposite gender. That is cross-dressing.
Nowhere in the OP does it state that the girl (according to you now, still a boy) is still a boy. You wrote that the boy has transitioned to a girl, which obviously means surgery. Now you are saying that the girl has not received any surgery, making him still a boy.
That is why I asked you to clarify your OP, instead of doing so you attacked me.

I apologize if you took what I said or my tone as an attack. It was more frustration than anything because your equating the word transition with surgery is simply not how that word is used or what it means and you've been kind of stubbornly been sticking to a nit-picky point without listening to how others have tried to explain it to you.

This child has made a social transition. She is known by a different name, identity and is referred to as a she and not a him. I'm not sure how to make this any more clear?

Apology accepted.

We just have to agree that we are in disagreement about this.

Just for reference from dictionary: www.thefreedictionary.com...

And here is for cross-dressing: www.thefreedictionary.com...

I have already said my opinion on how I consider this.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: Abysha

Do you have anything to back that claim or this more speculative rhetoric? Did you read the study? How do you know who they compared the findings to?

Because they say so right in the study. I'm not drawing information from anywhere but the study. They are comparing post-op transwomen with a general population of cisgender people. The high suicide rate for transgender people is widely known and agreed upon and the numbers they are reporting in this study for post-op are far lower than that.

McHugh is a very well known anti-trans activist (anti LGBT, in general). It may shed some light to know that Bush appointed him as the lead guy for bioethics. I don't think I need to bring that up but it might give you an idea as to why he concluded the data in the twisted way he did.

a reply to: pompel9

Cross-dressing is when someone doesn't want to permanently change their gender - they just like dressing in the other gender's clothing.

This kid identifies as the other gender completely, but because she is only 6, the transition will be done in stages. First stage: look like the identified gender on the surface with clothing and hair, along with a name change. If she still wants to, the next step at puberty age will be to take the reversible puberty blockers to give her more time to think about it before the irreversible changes of puberty happen. By about 16, if she still wants it, she can take female hormones to enhance her femininity. Then by 18, if she still wants it, she can have the surgery.

Does that make sense?

originally posted by: Anosognosia
Definitely not easy at all. I think in the case of a boy wanting to be a girl the issue is magnified 1000X. I wish I had some answers here, as I can see why both sides feel as strongly as they do.

Thank you. Acknowledging the difficulty and scope of this problem and being able to see both sides with an open mind is really as much as one could ask.

I think the boy wanting to be a girl probably is a bigger challenge than the other way around. A broader range of gender behaviors and expression are tolerated in girls more so than boys and the term "tomboy" is used without overly negative connotation unlike the term for less than masculine acting boys, "sissies".

As was pointed out earlier, being a tomboy or a sissy, girls that play in the mud or boys that play with dollies, does not a transgender child make.

originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: Anosognosia
Definitely not easy at all. I think in the case of a boy wanting to be a girl the issue is magnified 1000X. I wish I had some answers here, as I can see why both sides feel as strongly as they do.

Thank you. Acknowledging the difficulty and scope of this problem and being able to see both sides with an open mind is really as much as one could ask.

I think the boy wanting to be a girl probably is a bigger challenge than the other way around. A broader range of gender behaviors and expression are tolerated in girls more so than boys and the term "tomboy" is used without overly negative connotation unlike the term for less than masculine acting boys, "sissies".

As was pointed out earlier, being a tomboy or a sissy, girls that play in the mud or boys that play with dollies, does not a transgender child make.

Exactly. The girl identifying as a boy could also have a gender neutral name, and there really would be no issues at all. The only real issue arises later in life when it comes to bathrooms/locker rooms. Even then the issue is only really a concern when it is a boy identifying as girl since there would be a penis in the girls locker room. I don't think many people care when those roles are reversed.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: Annee

This has nothing to do with the topic at all. As a matter of fact transgender types were covered under the same act but they don't like the stigma of it being a psychiatric disorder which if you have read any of my post even the people studying this have concluded that their issues are not resolved through gender reassignment and they require a lot of therapy and aftercare like other mental disorders.

I'm aware every time I use polio, physical disability, ---- I'm told it's not the same thing.

Society rejection is exactly the same thing. Whether you want to accept it or not.

I figured it out, all transgenders are Scientologists! How else could you think you were born not a male or female, THE ONLY TERMS that should exist, unless you were something different in a past life.

From here on out, I will refer to you all as Scientologists. I opted out of this thread awhile ago but after coming to this revelation, I think it all makes sense. it all makes sense now. Your all Scientologists and you just haven't admitted it yet.

Please stop converting children to Scientology, it rather a depraved thing to do. I know with confidence at least two out of the three of yall in this thread also takes illicit drugs or abuse pain pills.

oh i cant prove it or care too over a screen, but I dont need too. yall know the truth.

a reply to: AmericanRealist

As sad as it is, that's one of the nicest insults I've heard leveled at transgender folk.

But still, don't call people Scientologist. Not even Scientologists deserve that.

originally posted by: AmericanRealist
I know with confidence at least two out of the three of yall in this thread also takes illicit drugs or abuse pain pills.

I can think of three or four times that many in this thread probably should. Maybe it'd help them chill?

I know I said I wasn't going to respond to the baiting but this part was pretty dang funny and I couldn't help it. So those that support and advocate on trans issues are drug abusers now? And scientologists? Really?

a reply to: AmericanRealist

ROFLMAO! Scientologists!

Scientologists are the least of your worries. Parents should stop forcing religions on their children. THAT is child abuse.

Anyway now that you mentioned past life, there are some people here that do believe in that, including myself. It could influence on who they are today.

Anyway no one is forcing anything on the girl in the article. She is who she is. To force her to be anything other than herself is child abuse.

[edit] - Thanks AR for correcting me. It wasn't about Jazz.


Some people claimed that this is the corruption of a minor. I do not understand why they think that way.