Community rallies behind 6-year-old transgender girl

a reply to: AmericanRealist

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I do have one final hope for Florida though... GLOBAL WARMING.

a reply to: kaylaluv

I already stated how your question is a loaded one. The "treatment" of minors you speak of is still new. New enough that we don't have enough information regarding the long term effects(most are not even adults yet). However I used examples of countries that tolerate, recognize, and provide for transsexuals for thousands of years. Transsexuals nurtured from childhood to be "who they are" and have shown the results within those societies. It is the same as all transsexual segments. Mental health issues, self harm, sex workers, the list goes on.

I already posted information about studies of untreated minors and how without intervention the majority seem to lose interest. You keep ignoring that. You call the info bias but it was conducted at 2 different prestigious universities and the findings were similar to those of the Karolinska institute. That being that the treatment (reassignment/transition) is not a cure for the condition.

Continue to preach to your choir though. The "hetero females" with the female avatars that insist that they have some insight on this issue. Like anyone is buying you guys closeted BS at this point.

a reply to: Freija

Typical Freija. As soon as he encounters opposition he lets us know how much he wants those people to die off.

I love this place so much sometimes.

People never cease to amaze me. At least it is somewhat entertaining to watch all the mind meltdowns and exploding heads and such and the things people resort to when their little bubble of knowledge is challenged. It is really quite amusing when it comes right down to it. Kinda sad too but you can only do so much, you know?

a reply to: Freija

Aside from clowns what makes me laugh is people who resort to name calling (calling people bigots), wishing for the death of their opponents, and people who cant articulate a logical thought because of their hormone treatments and an overemphasis on "feelings", people who threaten to leave a conversation because of a lack of support, and people who misrepresent themselves while shilling for one single cause. Chuckles all around today.

originally posted by: Freija
I love this place so much sometimes.

People never cease to amaze me. At least it is somewhat entertaining to watch all the mind meltdowns and exploding heads and such and the things people resort to when their little bubble of knowledge is challenged. It is really quite amusing when it comes right down to it. Kinda sad too but you can only do so much, you know?

Yes, and then just keep going, and going, and going like an ignorant train wreck.

There are subject threads I read, but rarely post in --- because I am ignorant (not knowledgeable) of the subject.

It's is interesting to watch the knowledgeable take on the ignorant. And they just keep coming back for more. Strange phenomenon.

----------------------

Back on subject.

Everything I've read from actual Transgenders supports early acceptance. There's noting invasive. Just acceptance.

a reply to: Annee

Well only you can account for your own idiocy and stupidity. If you aren't willing to ever admit wrongness, then you get the discussion we have in this thread. People knowledgeable on the subject getting exasperated and frustrated repeating themselves over and over again while the uninformed claims victory as soon as they leave in frustration.

There's a reason I've toned down posting in this thread and only post every so many pages or so.

a reply to: NihilistSanta

On other subjects, how are you ever convinced to shift your stance? Does it ever happen? Has there ever been a subject you have felt strongly about and allowed yourself to accept evidence that disputes your feelings without automatically dismissing them as having an agenda? When there is a consensus on a view and an accepted authority on the subject agrees with that consensus, do you ever allow that to sway your mind? On anything?

I just can't picture anybody being able to change your mind about anything you felt strongly about. You've already made your feelings on climate change science clear and affirmed my suspicions a few days ago that you approach it the same way you approach transgender topics.

There are no steps beyond giving you examples that counter your point. There are no sources with more authority than the ones you've been shown and promptly rejected. There is nothing that will make you budge.

The truth is that you want to maintain your right to dislike transgender people. Right granted. You've always had that right. You also want the right to be disrespectful about their very core identities. Again, right granted; you've always had it. But what you also seem to want is a moral justification for your attitude towards these people. That moral justification does not exist and that bothers you. You want to be a jerk without having to feel like a jerk.

Haven't you been listening to the news? Trump is all the rage and is legitimizing unjustifiable disrespect and rudeness. Just embrace it. Your kind is starting to see some sort of twisted golden age so roll with it. Stop trying to win an argument by not accepting anything from the authority on the subject and various subject matter experts. Just give us the finger, say "Whatever loonies", and roll on by.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: kaylaluv

I already stated how your question is a loaded one. The "treatment" of minors you speak of is still new. New enough that we don't have enough information regarding the long term effects(most are not even adults yet).

I would agree with that. So, let's keep doing things like what's happening in the OP and see how it goes over the next 20 years or so.

However I used examples of countries that tolerate, recognize, and provide for transsexuals for thousands of years. Transsexuals nurtured from childhood to be "who they are" and have shown the results within those societies. It is the same as all transsexual segments. Mental health issues, self harm, sex workers, the list goes on.

The only example I remember is one that I debunked.

I already posted information about studies of untreated minors and how without intervention the majority seem to lose interest. You keep ignoring that. You call the info bias but it was conducted at 2 different prestigious universities and the findings were similar to those of the Karolinska institute. That being that the treatment (reassignment/transition) is not a cure for the condition.

With or without intervention, many children decide that the transgender route is not for them. That is precisely why the puberty blockers are such a good idea. No harm done if they decide to stop them.

But what about the small number of youth who DO decide to proceed with their transition? What do you propose to do with them? What magical cure have you researched that has actually worked?

And your own link most certainly DID say that the surgery cured the gender dysphoria. Said it in plain English.

Nope, I'm afraid your "proof" was a great big fail.

I have come across an article regarding a research study where the findings are to be published in Psychological Science, a journal of the Association for Psychological Science. I am somewhat hesitant to share this information because without a doubt, some will discredit it as biased and part of some subversive agenda.

Admittedly, the source of the story and interview with the lead scientist about the research is from a less than an impartial origin, however, the research itself and conclusions from an also discussed government report should not be looked at as suspect.

A recent study found that the gender identity of trans children is as implicit as the gender identity of cis children. A study with 32 transgender children, ages 5 to 12, indicates that the gender identity of these children is deeply held and is not the result of confusion about gender identity or pretense.

The study, led by psychological scientist Kristina Olson of the University of Washington, is one of the first to explore gender identity in transgender children using implicit measures that operate outside conscious awareness and are, therefore, less susceptible to modification than self-report measures and older studies by researchers who conflated trans and gender diverse children.

Here is a snipped from the interview:

Olson: We have now used a wide range of measures to assess transgender children’s gender identities. We use some measures—ones we call explicit measures—where we directly ask children about their identities. We also use more indirect measures—what are called ‘implicit’ measures to assess identity. The latter are tests that are hard, if not impossible, for young children to fake. Most of the kids don’t even realize that we are assessing identity, nor that we are measuring their response speed.

These tasks measure children’s associations between their view of themselves and their gender. Using both kinds of measures, we find the same conclusion—the these prepubescent, socially-transitioned, transgender kids who say they are girls, look like girls on all types of measures; the kids who say they are boys, look like boys on all types of measures. Therefore, we can conclude that these kids are not just pretending or playing around (as a child might pretend to be a Superman), rather, deep down, they appear to think of themselves as a girl (or a boy), just as much as any other girl (or boy).

Along with discussion of the metrics used in this study and some of the conclusions and observations, an additional published report from the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA), a branch of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, condemns “conversion” or “reparative” therapies for transgender and gender diverse children is also discussed.

Study: Trans kid’s gender implicit; govt report condemns conversion therapy

There are also some interesting observations noting differences between trans and gender diverse children.

If you are interested in learning more about this study and report, have a look at the information. If you only wish to discredit the story as biased and agenda driven, save yourself the time from reading it and us the time hearing about it if you don't like the facts and conclusions presented.

a reply to: Freija

I have done some research on the study. First I think it may be a bit bias and really flimsy overall. This is just my opinion but the following tells me this may be.

Olson started the research project, partly out of her interest in how children think about social groups, but also because she’d witnessed the challenges of a close friend with a transgender child. “Seeing how little scientific information there was, basically nothing for parents, was hard to watch,” Olson said. “Doctors were saying, ‘We just don’t know,’ so the parents have to make these really big decisions: Should I let my kid go to school as a girl, or should I make my kid go to school as a boy? Should my child be in therapy to try to change what she says she is, or should she be supported?”

Olson and co-authors Nicholas Eaton at Stony Brook University and Aidan Key of Gender Diversity, a Seattle organization that provides training and runs support groups for families of gender-nonconforming children, specifically focused their study on transgender children who were living as their identified gender in all aspects of their lives, who came from supportive home environments, and who had not yet reached puberty. The participants and their cisgender (non-transgender) siblings were recruited through support groups, conferences, and word of mouth.

Association for Psychological Science

I will be interested to read any professional criticisms when they are available. Its interesting Olson states the hard science doctors still say they don't know but her seemingly biased interpretation and that of her co-authors coupled with the subjects chosen may just be more ideologically comprised confirmation bias. The method used measures their reaction time. So it is hardly something concrete and definitely warrants further study but should be conducted in a manner that is less open to bias and interpretation. Even Olson says they need further study and wants to try the same thing with a group of 100 and actually follow some into adulthood.

Again my opinion based on interpreting what is available but this still seems unsubstantiated or inconclusive and I thought others might want to be aware of the people involved in the study. Not to poison the well but when dealing with a subject in the soft sciences like psychology bias can be a bigger issue because of the lack of anything physical

originally posted by: Freija

Admittedly, the source of the story and interview with the lead scientist about the research is from a less than an impartial origin, however, the research itself and conclusions from an also discussed government report should not be looked at as suspect.

And along with these reports I take the testimonies of adult transgenders.

The more real life transgender adults agree with findings --- the closer we are to full understanding.

When researching this stuff, that is what I look for. I look for the response from those the report affects.

Thank you, Santa, for your review and opinion and alternate source of basically the same information in the link that I provided except excluding the information on the government report from SAMSHA. That was nice of you and your tone refreshingly almost civil.

Although you've often accused me of being blind to the biases that may possibly exist, believe it or not I am interested in impartial research and science as much as you are but in the words of the great American poet singer-songwriter, Robert Zimmerman, "I don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows".

The implicit/implied testing model has been fairly widely used for many different kind of things and is not something invented by this researcher. More science, broader datasets and long term follow-ups are indicated but we do have to remember these are kids we're dealing with and not lab rats.

In spite of your suspicions and bias paranoia, I've seen a small glimmer of hope that you've actually read something that at least partially confirms what some of us have been telling you regardless of how inconclusive you feel it is: trans kids are not confused and know what they are. Treating them otherwise is just wrong.

a reply to: Annee

That is basically confirmation bias you are supporting. Real science should be impartial. Obviously it is no surprise you are in favor of biased scientific outcomes.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: Annee

That is basically confirmation bias you are supporting. Real science should be impartial. Obviously it is no surprise you are in favor of biased scientific outcomes.

No it's not.

I have an accumulation of 20+ years of following LGBT research. I took an interest because of a friend.

After awhile, you learn "who's who". You learn who's "straight up" in assessing new info. You learn what/who has been debunked.

However, NO ONE knows what it is to be and experience Transgender except a Transgender.

To say input from a Transgender is bias is a ridiculous position of argument. What it is, is the only accurate source of what it is to be Transgender.

Science still doesn't know exactly why some people are Left Handed. Must be a mental issue.

a reply to: Annee

Maybe this is a generational thing? At one point I thought our red suited friend was 12 but he's old enough at least to think of himself as a weaponized conservative so, there's that?

Once upon a time, dear Santa, people used their experience, intuition and gut to relate to the world and understand others without requiring links, research papers and pics or it didn't happen. Contrary to your previous comments where such subjective things were discarded and without merit, the heart and feelings are equally valid or even superior tools in our evaluations, understanding and acceptance of others.

Maybe it's just us senior folk raised before the digital age are the ones that learned how to know, believe and trust people face-to-face that can take in things when heard straight from the horse's mouth or from those more knowledged or personally experienced than ourselves without searching for holes in their stories or requiring 3rd party proof? In the case of this whole trans thing, like Annee says, who's a higher authority in knowing what this is all about in human terms? Somebody that is trans or a room full of researchers trying to define it.

a reply to: Freija

Back in the golden days when they locked people up and considered it a disease of the mind or worse a deviancy? That is the times when people used intuition to make judgements over now when ideology and political correctness prevent people from seeing the obvious. I am not saying that is what should be done now in regards to transwhatevers but you aren't making any sense and I thought we should clarify.

a reply to: NihilistSanta

So when are these "golden days" you speak of and when did they end? What caused them to end? Political correctness and ideology or scientific discovery and understanding?

How about giving us a history and sociological lesson so we can understand the downfall of civilization?

originally posted by: Freija
a reply to: NihilistSanta

So when are these "golden days" you speak of and when did they end? What caused them to end? Political correctness and ideology or scientific discovery and understanding?

How about giving us a history and sociological lesson so we can understand the downfall of civilization?

Yeah, I'd be really interested in knowing when these "golden days" were.

As I am just shy of 70 - - - my guess is - - - I might have lived them - - - but Santa is only guessing.

a reply to: Freija

It was sarcasm. You were the one hinting at golden days. I have to spell everything out for you apparently.