Russia didn't give downed jet's flight plan to U.S.: U.S. officials

originally posted by: Kaifan
a reply to: Xcathdra

Well looks like they actually did, given that "somehow" reporters were already in place to have video of the "event" and somehow they were at the right place at the right time. And still there's no confirming evidence this happened outside of Syria, only words and pretty pictures, and a terrible audio that doesn't have the russian side on it? not good.

Reading through here is funny. Apparently their is about that believe Putins lie. I seriously doubt he told them he would be flying into turkey. Wow really come on people in order to fly into Turkey he would need to notify them directly. As far as the flight plan the only person who knew what it was going to be was the pilot. In a combat situation you send a pilot to an area they don't file flight plans like civilian aviation. Though apparently Putin believes they do.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

ok can I ask

you are protecting Turkmen right to oppose assads regime. so the next question would be comparing this to Ukraine and Donetsk rebels (ethnic Russians) did they have also the right to want to overthrow regime and rebel

would like to know your opinion


it is actually you wanting to discuss Russia
Not fighting Isis enough
What's even the point of this thread???????

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Kaifan
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Are you sure? where are you getting this info from? From what it can be seen so far Turkey has allowed ISIS to exist and even has provided means for them to grow, i'm not sure about all of those things but so far it looks like a completely different thing.

I said nothing about Turkey. Turkmen =/= Turkey. Turkmen are ethnic Turks, living in Syria, that have been severely oppressed by Assad.

Turkmen are fighting ISIS, Russia was cutting through Turkey to bomb Syrian Turkmen, who are fighting ISIS.

I'd actually believe that from the map I saw.

So, what is the name of the group that Russia was bombing?

What is their position on the Assad govt?

That is where the answer to this debacle lays. If they are also attacking Assad troops or have stated their goal is the downfall of the Assad govt, then in Russia's eyes they would be fair game. Obviously Turkey would not agree and yes, it would make sense that they shoot down a Russian plane.

Then the lies would make sense - Turkey has it's own illicit army of Rebels there and it protected them, but won't admit to it because they 'have no part in the war on the ground' and Russia won't admit to trying to take a shortcut to bomb them.

originally posted by: Layaly
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

ok can I ask

you are protecting Turkmen right to oppose assads regime. so the next question would be comparing this to Ukraine and Donetsk rebels (ethnic Russians) did they have also the right to want to overthrow regime and rebel

would like to know your opinion

I am not protecting anything. But since you asked, Russia used that incident to steal land from the Ukraine. Can you show me which part of Syria Turkey has annexed and claimed it as it's own? If you can't find any land, then you can't claim it's the same situation.

Another similarity would be if Turkey sent in bombers to kill Russians in Crimea and sent those bombers through Russian space without asking, and Russia blew the bomber up. Only problem is, Turkey did no such thing.

There really is no comparing what Russia has done.

originally posted by: markosity1973
I'd actually believe that from the map I saw.

So, what is the name of the group that Russia was bombing?

What is their position on the Assad govt?

That is where the answer to this debacle lays. If they are also attacking Assad troops or have stated their goal is the downfall of the Assad govt, then in Russia's eyes they would be fair game. Obviously Turkey would not agree and yes, it would make sense that they shoot down a Russian plane.

Then the lies would make sense - Turkey has it's own illicit army of Rebels there and it protected them, but won't admit to it because they 'have no part in the war on the ground' and Russia won't admit to trying to take a shortcut to bomb them.

Russia was bombing Syrian Turkmen, who live in the mountains near Turkey.

They fight both ISIS and Assad, which is why Russia bombed them. Killing Turkmen helps both Assad and ISIS, it does not hurt ISIS.

In Turkey's eyes Russia is not only slighting them by violating their borders, they are doing so with the intention of killing ethnic Turks. It's a double slap in the face. Had Russia been bombing ISIS or someone else, there would probably me a milder response, but Russia was killing ethnic Turks.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

That post makes the most sense in this thread.

Do you have some verifiable proof of this ?

It could lead to a proxy war between Turkey and Russia if it continues to escalate.

Putin has always stated that supporting the legitimate government of Syria (Assad) is his primary objective. Obviously the Assad govt sees value in re-establishing it's borders and it don't care who is there - if they want Assad gone they are an enemy to be crushed in their eyes.

This is why I really wish everyone interested in fighting ISIS would sit down and talk. Assad is a secondary issue and post war reforms are on the table. Even Assad admits that things need to change.

Everyone needs to stop attacking on two fronts and concentrate on the big evil that is thriving in the mayhem - ISIS.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Flatcoat
a reply to: Xcathdra

Looks like putin once again got caught lying...

Yes, someone's lying, but why does it automatically have to be Putin?

Because Putin has made many accusations in this ordeal, and all of them have been lies. So if he is 5 for 5 on lies, why believe the 6th thing?

And the US government has been caught lying hundreds of times, so I don't get this " Yeah, I know, but this time they're telling the truth...I'm sure of it!". Like a wife going back to her abusive husband again and again saying "He's changed, This time it'll be different."

a reply to: markosity1973

The problem is both the US and Russia use ISIS to legitimize their fighting in Syria, yet neither really cares about ISIS they both focus on Assad. Russia will engage anyone to help Assad, including actual moderate Syrian freedom fighters sick of Assad's rule.

The US will basically stop engaging anyone to hurt Assad, including fanatical religious zealots.

originally posted by: Flatcoat

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Flatcoat
a reply to: Xcathdra

Looks like putin once again got caught lying...

Yes, someone's lying, but why does it automatically have to be Putin?

Because Putin has made many accusations in this ordeal, and all of them have been lies. So if he is 5 for 5 on lies, why believe the 6th thing?

And the US government has been caught lying hundreds of times, so I don't get this " Yeah, I know, but this time they're telling the truth...I'm sure of it!". Like a wife going back to her abusive husband again and again saying "He's changed, This time it'll be different."

Except people are not saying the US is trustworthy. You are saying we should believe Putin. Putin has been caught lying on THIS particular event numerous times. His statement is illogical, not to mention Russia and Turkey were on good terms, so there is no way Russia would notify the US. It's like the US flying over Iran to bomb Iranian/Russian allies and complaining "Russia knew" without showing a single piece of evidence.

Putin is lying, deal with it and move on. Your world will not end, and it won't make Obama trustworthy all of a sudden.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Flatcoat

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Flatcoat
a reply to: Xcathdra

Looks like putin once again got caught lying...

Yes, someone's lying, but why does it automatically have to be Putin?

Because Putin has made many accusations in this ordeal, and all of them have been lies. So if he is 5 for 5 on lies, why believe the 6th thing?

And the US government has been caught lying hundreds of times, so I don't get this " Yeah, I know, but this time they're telling the truth...I'm sure of it!". Like a wife going back to her abusive husband again and again saying "He's changed, This time it'll be different."

Except people are not saying the US is trustworthy. You are saying we should believe Putin. Putin has been caught lying on THIS particular event numerous times. His statement is illogical, not to mention Russia and Turkey were on good terms, so there is no way Russia would notify the US. It's like the US flying over Iran to bomb Iranian/Russian allies and complaining "Russia knew" without showing a single piece of evidence.

Putin is lying, deal with it and move on. Your world will not end, and it won't make Obama trustworthy all of a sudden.

No, I'm afraid Putin has the benefit of the doubt on this occasion as shown by the information provided by Blackmarketeer on the first page. Deal with it and move on.

originally posted by: Flatcoat

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Flatcoat

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Flatcoat
a reply to: Xcathdra

Looks like putin once again got caught lying...

Yes, someone's lying, but why does it automatically have to be Putin?

Because Putin has made many accusations in this ordeal, and all of them have been lies. So if he is 5 for 5 on lies, why believe the 6th thing?

And the US government has been caught lying hundreds of times, so I don't get this " Yeah, I know, but this time they're telling the truth...I'm sure of it!". Like a wife going back to her abusive husband again and again saying "He's changed, This time it'll be different."

Except people are not saying the US is trustworthy. You are saying we should believe Putin. Putin has been caught lying on THIS particular event numerous times. His statement is illogical, not to mention Russia and Turkey were on good terms, so there is no way Russia would notify the US. It's like the US flying over Iran to bomb Iranian/Russian allies and complaining "Russia knew" without showing a single piece of evidence.

Putin is lying, deal with it and move on. Your world will not end, and it won't make Obama trustworthy all of a sudden.

No, I'm afraid Putin has the benefit of the doubt on this occasion as shown by the information provided by Blackmarketeer on the first page. Deal with it and move on.

You mean the guy who wrote a post conveniently leaving out that agreement covered flights in Syria, and Russia flew into Turkey? The poster who ignored Russia said they NEVER entered Turkey at all, and now admit they did but say oh yeah we had permission?

So which is true, they NEVER entered Turkey, or they did and had permission? Why would they inform the USA they were flying into Turkey if they never intended to fly into Turkey?

Then you have Putin saying the US "leaked" the flight path to Turkey. So is Putin saying they intended to fly into Turkey (since he said they had a flight path planned) and without Turkey knowing? Putin said that would never happen again after they violated Turkey's airspace in October.

So which of these multiple stories that contradict each other make Putin out to be honest here?

originally posted by: Xcathdra
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Russia did not inform the U.S. military of its jet's flight plan before Turkey shot it down on Tuesday, despite assertions to the contrary by Russian President Vladimir Putin, two U.S. officials told Reuters on Friday, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Why would they have to speak on condition of anonimity if that's an official version of the story? Why would an official stance need anonymous officials backing? Is the US willing to keep everything quiet while Putin accuses them of cooperating with terrorists? It doesn't make sense, I don't really understand why an X-stars general could just put his name on a quote saying they got no intelligence from russian if this was true.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
Putin is lying, deal with it and move on. Your world will not end, and it won't make Obama trustworthy all of a sudden.

Everyone is lying, possibly including the 2 unnamed officials.

a reply to: Mastronaut

If Russian soldiers arent being killed in E. Ukraine / Syria does Russia need a law that makes military deaths in peacetime classified?

* - Russian Defense Ministry Denies Russian Soldiers Killed In Syria

Parents receive body of first Russian to die in Syria, doubt suicide

If Russia didnt violate turkish airspace why are they trying to blame the US. Putin has no credibility. Why do you think he took control of the media.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Because there's still conjecture as to whether they flew in to Turkey, or in to Turkey's 5 mile "buffer" zone. The navigator of the aircraft still maintains that they did not enter Turkish airspace.

a reply to: Flatcoat

The only ones trying to drag the 5 mile buffer are pro russians. Even turkeys radar track shows the normal border.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

You're funny.

Russia is in Syria assisting legal government against not only terrorist known in the west as the "moderate" freedom fighters ( LOL ), but ISIS as well.

It wouldn't be a problem if the west just stop engaging anyone to hurt Assad, the problem is they are assisting/creating/arming/training terrorists.

Enjoy

a reply to: Xcathdra

But you didn't answer the question, why do they need anonymity? Are they doing this against the will of the official US military and intelligence sources? If so why? Isn't the official position against Russia and wouldn't this claim cater to their interest?
This cast doubts on what the official US military spokemen think about the legal and/or diplomatic value of this event.

a reply to: Mastronaut

Because they are not authorized to speak to the media. The US never got the info Russia is claiming. Secondly Did the russian flight plan show the airspace violation?

The moral of the story is russia was warned numerous times not to violate turkish airspace and they did. Turkey told them they would shoot down any aircraft violating its airspace and they did.

It would not surprise me if the airspace violation was intentional by russia to try and add insult to injury. Attacking non isis forces while violating turkish airspace to do so.

It doesnt cast doubt. Secondly you accept it all the time whenever russia talks about "sources" they never name.

a reply to: Nikola014

Russia is in Syria assisting legal government against not only terrorist known in the west as the "moderate" freedom fighters ( LOL ), but ISIS as well.

And that gives them the right to fly into another country without permission...no I don't think so.

Now let me ask you this...would you be okay if the US government went to East Ukraine and assisted the Ukrainian government with those terrorist in the East fighting the Ukraine government that Russia is backing?

And remember the Ukraine government would be asking for help and allowing them to do the job?

If your not then that just shows you letting your hypocrisy shine like a 10,000,000 watt light bulb.