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Russia didn't give downed jet's flight plan to U.S.: U.S. officials

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posted on Nov, 29 2015 @ 01:17 PM
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a reply to: PublicOpinion

Turkish aircraft didnt enter Syrian space. The radar tracks prove that.

They fired from inside Turkish airspace at a Russian jet inside Turkish airspace. It hit the Russian jet inside Syrian airspace. The article you tried to use, which undermined your argument, says the same thing.
edit on 29-11-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 29 2015 @ 01:37 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

Aha. You use Erdogans definition of Turkish borders?


The United States believes that the Russian jet shot down by Turkey on Tuesday was hit inside Syrian airspace after a brief incursion into Turkish airspace, a U.S. official told Reuters, speaking on condition of anonymity.

www.reuters.com...

Anonymity is our running gag here, eh?
Anyway... care to support your argument?



They fired from inside Turkish airspace at a Russian jet inside Turkish airspace.


Sure. Not.



posted on Nov, 29 2015 @ 01:45 PM
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originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: Xcathdra

Aha. You use Erdogans definition of Turkish borders?


The United States believes that the Russian jet shot down by Turkey on Tuesday was hit inside Syrian airspace after a brief incursion into Turkish airspace, a U.S. official told Reuters, speaking on condition of anonymity.

www.reuters.com...

Anonymity is our running gag here, eh?
Anyway... care to support your argument?



They fired from inside Turkish airspace at a Russian jet inside Turkish airspace.


Sure. Not.


You like to deny reality a lot don't you? The Russians went into Turkish airspace the radar track showed this unlike the the flight plan released by russia. A flight plan which is a lie by the way. Military commanders do not make pilots fly a flight plan when I saw that I was shocked Russia tried to pull that one off.



posted on Nov, 29 2015 @ 01:46 PM
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a reply to: PublicOpinion

No im using the same border as everyone else. They ignored warnings and then violated turkish airspace. If this were the first time russia did this then sure, its an over reaction. Since it wasnt their first time, and since russia was told what would happen, russia has no one to blame but themselves.



posted on Nov, 29 2015 @ 02:15 PM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Mastronaut

If Russian soldiers arent being killed in E. Ukraine / Syria does Russia need a law that makes military deaths in peacetime classified?

* - Russian Defense Ministry Denies Russian Soldiers Killed In Syria

Parents receive body of first Russian to die in Syria, doubt suicide

If Russia didnt violate turkish airspace why are they trying to blame the US. Putin has no credibility. Why do you think he took control of the media.


Do you even read this stuff before you post it, or do you just use the headline to justify a predetermined bias?

Here is what the article says on the suicide soldier


After the family saw the body, Vadim's younger sister Katya, 14, told Reuters the corpse appeared undamaged and it was unclear if he was strangled or had hanged himself.


See that right there? Strangled or hanged? This was no battlefield wound. The parents want to believe strangulation because it is easier to accept that suicide.

And


"According to preliminary information, in particular the analysis of text messages in his phone, the reason for the death of the contract serviceman is problems in his personal relationship with a girl," the source said.


It's quite normal for a family to no be able to believe their son would commit suicide - it's a lot for them to bear and understand. The girlfriend would not respond when contacted by the news agency either. Further admission by silence that she may have dumped him.

As for the 'No military deaths thing, that story has no credibility either


Rami Abdulrahman, head of the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, which monitors the conflict, told Reuters that his sources in the area had confirmed the deaths of Russians, but did not have a figure. He said he believed they were not regular Russian forces but volunteers.


So, your claim that Putin has no credibility is as shaky as these stories. Like everyone else in Syria he is being subjected to propaganda attacks. Which means one needs to read everything carefully, because like I have just shown, the headline might not be the actual truth.






edit on 29-11-2015 by markosity1973 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 29 2015 @ 02:23 PM
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a reply to: markosity1973

Do you bother to read the posts before responding? If russia is not hiding anything why are soldiers deaths classified during peacetime. It was a counter challenge to his logic which is if they, US officials not authorized to speak to the media, are anonymous then they are hiding something. That then applies to russia if they are going to classify how soldiers died - what are they hiding?

If you did bother to read then your bias towards me wouldnt be so obvious or embarrassing for you.
edit on 29-11-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 29 2015 @ 02:36 PM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: markosity1973

Do you bother to read the posts before responding? If russia is not hiding anything why are soldiers deaths classified during peacetime. It was a counter challenge to his logic which is if they, US officials not authorized to speak to the media, are anonymous then they are hiding something. That then applies to russia if they are going to classify how soldiers died - what are they hiding?

If you did bother to read then your bias towards me wouldnt be so obvious or embarrassing for you.


Okay, you're muddling two different conflicts and two very different motivating factors here.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Ukraine = BAD Putin. He created that classification law to hide the fact he was popping soliders across the border into Ukraine. Here, I'll even give you a really good Vice News video that shows very strong evidence Putin had troops over there and was going to extraordinary lengths to hide it.

news.vice.com...

Syria is new and different. It's a war Russia was invited to join, nothing is being hidden because there is no need to. He needs the support of the Russian people for this one. And he has over 70% public support for it so far.

Watch RT and you will see a new Syria story every 10 minutes almost. The Ukraine conflict by comparison was quite low key because 'he wasn't involved' Which we all know is a lie.



posted on Nov, 29 2015 @ 02:45 PM
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a reply to: markosity1973

No im pointing out the flaws in his logic. Like I said in another thread. I dont mind people calling out the US. Its hypocrisy and selective memory I have issue with.
edit on 29-11-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 29 2015 @ 03:10 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

The problem is that both Russia and America are inconsistent and prone to going rogue.

This means the logic used in one situation doesn't apply to the next.

As Russia has proved in Syria, the only logic you can rely on is to predetermined ideas in one's head being completely unreliable because the 'bad guy' on one day can turn around and become the 'good guy' the next.
edit on 29-11-2015 by markosity1973 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 29 2015 @ 03:16 PM
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Long Time, ATS. I'd like to ask the proponents of the official Turkey/US claims to share their thoughts on the following discrepancies based on facts uncovered presented by all players:

The Su-24 has a cruising speed of about 615 miles per hour (990 kmph). The crossing point indicated by the Turkish flight path is at most 1.7 miles wide. At this speed and geographic point the crossing would take the Su-24's 9.95 seconds to traverse (Turkey reported 17 seconds which suggests they were flying at 360 mph).

Turkey claim they warned the jets "10 times over 5 minutes". If we take the average operational speeds into account, as the crow flies, these jets would have been 50 miles away from the peninsular when Turkey began issuing warnings. Even if the jets were flying at 360mph - an unlikely scenario during active operations over a war zone - they would have been 30 miles from the peninsular when warnings began. Either way, given the manoeuvrability of the Su-24 it is impossible to say where it may be heading in 5 minutes time, whether 50 or 30 miles away.

My own thoughts on this topic:

I find it difficult to believe that the Russians would not share basic operational information with the US given they both maintain an aerial presence in the area and have agreed to work with a degree of cooperation. Neither want to become embattled with each other - at least not yet - therefore it makes no sense for the Russians to not play by the book. They have played every move with extreme care thus far which leads me to doubt they would be so nonchalant as to withhold information that could prevent a potential superpower skirmish.

Would the US share such intel with their NATO ally Turkey? Its plausible. Whether or not they intended it to be used against the Russians is another topic. The question of who is lying - and with the 2 wildly differing stories its obvious; somebody is - is where I feel some have pieced too few of the facts to base such resolute opinions on.



posted on Nov, 29 2015 @ 03:25 PM
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a reply to: Pr0t0

You've just shown what we're all questioning.

Neither side is telling the truth. Occamsrazor introduced a compelling theory, that if true explains everything perfectly.

Their theory is basically that Turkey realised that Russia was about to bomb some rebels they are sponsoring and Russia trued to sneak a shortcut across Turkish airspace to get to the target area. Turkey felt it had a case to strike and protect their rebels. So it did.

Everyone is lying because Turkey won't openly admit it is supporting a rebel group that is opposed to the Assad government and Russia won't admit it's pilots went rogue and tried to sneak in a shortcut.

Both countries are in the wrong if this theory is true. And both are lying to preserve national pride.
edit on 29-11-2015 by markosity1973 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 29 2015 @ 03:51 PM
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a reply to: markosity1973

A solid argument. And, of course, where both players have something to hide the truth lies somewhere in between. It was certainly Turkmen territory, who had their phones and weaponry at the ready - could they have been given the "heads up"? Perhaps the same could be said of the intercepting Turkish F-16's?

Muddy are the waters on this one. Do you think an escalation was intended by those involved, or other players, or that the situation was an accidental, in some ways for everyone, opportune, series of events?



posted on Nov, 29 2015 @ 06:06 PM
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in an earlier post I told yall about the Russian aircraft being targeted so as to draw the Russian top-secret weapon that knocks-out all communications & missile programming/GPS on targeted nato weapons systems...

the story came from a 13 or so minute audio feed by DR Paul Craig Roberts on a KWN website....here:


kingworldnews.com...

(the story/explaination starts at around the 6:00 minute mark)


just to prove I am not creating stuff out of thin air~~~ thank you all
edit on th30144884223729102015 by St Udio because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 29 2015 @ 07:29 PM
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a reply to: Pr0t0

I'm going for accidental here.

I can't see Putin really wanting to take and Turkey and the rest of NATO over a single downed jet.

Understandably he is not happy, so we'll see a bit of obligatory chest beating to look like he is earning his position as the President of Russia but little more than that at this point.



posted on Nov, 29 2015 @ 08:09 PM
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originally posted by: Flatcoat
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Because there's still conjecture as to whether they flew in to Turkey, or in to Turkey's 5 mile "buffer" zone. The navigator of the aircraft still maintains that they did not enter Turkish airspace.

No, there is not. Russia said they can prove it, and then never released any information that proves it. Turkey released the information that proved Russia lied, and Russia did nothing to counter it. Russia then moved the goalpost from "we did not go into Turkey" to "The US knew we were going there". There is no conjecture.



posted on Nov, 29 2015 @ 08:09 PM
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originally posted by: Nikola014
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

You're funny.

Russia is in Syria assisting legal government against not only terrorist known in the west as the "moderate" freedom fighters ( LOL ), but ISIS as well.

It wouldn't be a problem if the west just stop engaging anyone to hurt Assad, the problem is they are assisting/creating/arming/training terrorists.

Enjoy

And how does that give the the right to invade Turkey's airspace again?



posted on Nov, 29 2015 @ 08:22 PM
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originally posted by: Patriotsrevenge
a reply to: Xcathdra

Sorry, I do not believe a dam thing that comes out of the Obama administration mouths! Putin has been shown over and over to be NOT LYING.

Russia said they NEVER entered Turkey at all, and now admit they did but say oh yeah we had permission?

So which is true, they NEVER entered Turkey, or they did and had permission? Why would they inform the USA they were flying into Turkey if they never intended to fly into Turkey?

Then you have Putin saying the US "leaked" the flight path to Turkey. So is Putin saying they intended to fly into Turkey (since he said they had a flight path planned) and without Turkey knowing? Putin said that would never happen again after they violated Turkey's airspace in October.

So which of these multiple stories that contradict each other make Putin out to be honest here?



posted on Nov, 29 2015 @ 08:26 PM
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originally posted by: markosity1973
And both are lying to preserve national pride.

When it comes to the conflict in Syria you can tell someone is lying because their mouth is open and sounds are coming out.



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