How exactly was Jesus' crucifixion a sacrifice?

originally posted by: troubleshooter
Animal sacrifices were a prophetic symbol of what Jesus would do and not the other way around...

Jesus died to defeat death by resurrection...so resurrection was the goal.
The thing about resurrection is that you must be dead first.

This was illustrated with the two goats on the Day of Atonement...one died one lived.

So where is the sacrifice, if he came back to life?

originally posted by: Jobeycool
Enormous difference between me and you.You think mankind existed longer than I do.I believe the bible is true with the Adam and Eve story either through creation or evolution.

Finally someone who believe in bible as written, so please let me ask you few questions.

If there were 2 people in begging, who did make their kids babies with?? Incest??

Same with Noah's family after big flush??? Incest and lots of it, apparently... but if we here only short time as you believe, how do you explain that there is so many of us different, and how come we have evidence of humans living before your Adam and Eve??

Please, explain that to me, and while you at it, is incest considered sin or not??

originally posted by: Jobeycool
Enormous difference between me and you.You think mankind existed longer than I do.I believe the bible is true with the Adam and Eve story either through creation or evolution.

creation or evolution?
Anyway no need for belief when it comes to fossils, the truth is there for all to see!
Belief is for religion, Mankind history is not a matter of belief, it's science... chaotic difference between those two

originally posted by: SuperFrog

If there were 2 people in begging, who did make their kids babies with?? Incest??

Hahaha...
Adam had two sons, to whom they got married?

originally posted by: Dr1Akula

originally posted by: troubleshooter
Animal sacrifices were a prophetic symbol of what Jesus would do and not the other way around...

Jesus died to defeat death by resurrection...so resurrection was the goal.
The thing about resurrection is that you must be dead first.

This was illustrated with the two goats on the Day of Atonement...one died one lived.

So where is the sacrifice, if he came back to life?

The animal sacrifices were an illustration of what would happen to Jesus...that's all.

Jesus allowed Himself to be killed so that He could defeat death for all who believe.

The animal 'sacrifices' were already called that so His playing out this rehearsal called 'sacrifice' is what happened to Him.

originally posted by: Dr1Akula
since no human ever lived was completely without sins except Jesus,
and since even the human body, desires, thoughts, nature lead us to sin everyday,
hasn't God failed with his creation?
We speak about the whole humanity here...
If he wanted us to be perfect why didn't he made us perfect?
But instead he wants us to be something against our nature.

God did not make us. God made Adam. And God made Adam perfect.
I already answered your question. By sinning, Adam made himself unable to produce progeny that was sinless.
But this was not God's doing. It was a consequence of Adam's actions.

originally posted by: Dr1Akula
He understood that too late for a omniscient God, how many poor souls died cursed for Adam's sin, before Jesus?
Too much pain for an apple...

The question raised by the OP was but one problem caused by the events that happened during the Fall of Eden.
To put it in simple human terms, you are asking God to 'put the cart before the horse'. Many things had to be done - and many are still to do - to solve all the issues that arose of such event, and the sacrifice of Jesus was merely one piece among others.

originally posted by: Dr1Akula
That sounds satanic, injustice and cruel... are your sure we are still talking about the all loving god?

You are entitled to your opinion. I beg to differ.

originally posted by: Dr1Akula
The ''curse was lifted'' but the world didn't change a bit... there was even more ignorance, wars, misery, torture, pain, darkness and suffering after Jesus, than before, and his followers brought the dark ages destroyed science and took the world 2000 years behind. Was that because the curse was lifted?

As I said, this was but one problem to be solved. Yes, the world did not change. The process is still ongoing.

originally posted by: Dr1Akula
Anyway the point is that the body of Christ was resurrected, so he wasn't sacrificed at all, ''he returned to his Throne in Heaven at the right side of God''

The point was for him to die sinless. As he did. His resurrection pertains to another question, unrelated to the OP's question.

originally posted by: Dr1Akula
IF God is omnipotent and omniscient, why couldn't he lift the curse you are talking about without all this drama.
He created the whole universe just by saying ''let there be...'' and he couldn't lift up a curse in a more convenient way?

Yes and no. Is He able to do it, yes. Whether He should do it or not is the real issue. You see, God is called "supreme judge" for a reason. He makes the rules. But all coins have two sides. In order to legitimately be the ruler of the universe, He also has to obey them. He could have said, "the penalty for sin is a free kick for the other team." He didn't. But once He declared that penalty for sin is death, such is set in stone, and He Himself also has to follow such rules, if He is to keep His legitimacy.

As I said in my previous answer, this is not Christianity 101. I do not expect it to make sense in 140 characters or less, and neither should you.

First, we have to understand the concept of "sacrifice" as it pertained to the Israelites. Remember, Jesus said "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel". That was His primary mission. It later extended to the rest of the world, but we need this context in order for the sacrificial component of His life to make sense.

God's covenant with Israel had a yearly "day of atonement" and it involved the sacrifice of specific animals for the atonement of sin. See Leviticus 16 for a complete understanding of the process. Blood sacrifice was needed to cover sin.

Jesus was the "Lamb of God who was slain before the foundations of the world". In other words, God dealt with the problem of sin before it even happened. He knew the end before the beginning.

In addition, we need to look at the following:

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

We (all of humanity that was, is, or is to come) was justified by His blood at the cross. "Justified" in the Greek can be likened to "just as if" it never happened. That was the work of His blood in the crucifixion. However, we are ultimately "saved by His life". That is where the reconciliation occurred. John 2:2 explains it perfectly: "He is the propitiation for our sins, but not for our sins only, but for the sins of the world".

Justified by His blood and saved by His life.

Sacrifices were used in the ancient world to seal contracts/covenants/agreements.

This sort of 'sacrifice' contract was the way the covenant with Abraham was established.

"And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
8 And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.
11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
(Gen 15:7-11 KJV)

The promise of a 'seed' had a messianic focus that Jesus fulfilled...

originally posted by: Leahn

God did not make us. God made Adam. And God made Adam perfect. I already answered your question. By sinning, Adam made himself unable to produce progeny that was sinless. But this was not God's doing. It was a consequence of Adam's actions.

But Adam wasn't perfect, if he was he wouldn't sin,
And since God is omniscient he already knew that adam would sin, and all mankind would be cursed.
God knew all this before creating Adam.

The question raised by the OP was but one problem caused by the events that happened during the Fall of Eden. To put it in simple human terms, you are asking God to 'put the cart before the horse'. Many things had to be done - and many are still to do - to solve all the issues that arose of such event, and the sacrifice of Jesus was merely one piece among others.

I would never imagine that multitasking or short time would be an issue for God.

You are entitled to your opinion. I beg to differ.

What I am supposed to think when I hear about ''blood must be spilled to save from sins, even if it's not yours'', death, and sacrifices?
Doesn't this sound satanic to you?

As I said, this was but one problem to be solved. Yes, the world did not change. The process is still ongoing

.

An omnipotent God wouldn't take so much time, while so many innocents suffer everyday...

The point was for him to die sinless. As he did. His resurrection pertains to another question, unrelated to the OP's question.

But he didn't died, death is permanent. We can't call it death, that's our main discussion, and so God didn't sacrificed his own son since He still has him by His side.

Yes and no. Is He able to do it, yes. Whether He should do it or not is the real issue. You see, God is called "supreme judge" for a reason. He makes the rules. But all coins have two sides. In order to legitimately be the ruler of the universe, He also has to obey them. He could have said, "the penalty for sin is a free kick for the other team." He didn't. But once He declared that penalty for sin is death, such is set in stone, and He Himself also has to follow such rules, if He is to keep His legitimacy.

But the people who die because of sin stay dead, He didn't, so he didn't exactly followed his own rules.

As I said in my previous answer, this is not Christianity 101. I do not expect it to make sense in 140 characters or less, and neither should you.

I agree on that but imo it's not a matter of characters for Christianity to make sense, it rather needs some hard mental gymnastics to define logic and accept dogmatism, if you are not born and raised to be part of it.

a reply to: troubleshooter
You are making sense... Although the animals never come back to life, and since Jesus could defeat death he wasn't really killed and he had nothing to lose.

As I understand it, sacrifice ''at least the pagan one'' was about giving something back to nature
People would miss some of their own food and goods (animals, fruits, wine, milk, herbs, incense etc.) to give something back to nature.
They were sacrificing some of their conveniences to pay respect and give something back to the giver, the provider nature!
And that's were fasting and monasticism comes from, which are also forms of sacrifice,
missing conveniences and delights in life for spirituality.

Even as an atheist this makes sense to me. but the case of Jesus is very confusing.

originally posted by: Dr1Akula
a reply to: troubleshooter
You are making sense... Although the animals never come back to life, and since Jesus could defeat death he wasn't really killed and he had nothing to lose.

As I understand it, sacrifice ''at least the pagan one'' was about giving something back to nature
People would miss some of their own food and goods (animals, fruits, wine, milk, herbs, incense etc.) to give something back to nature.
They were sacrificing some of their conveniences to pay respect and give something back to the giver, the provider nature!
And that's were fasting and monasticism comes from, which are also forms of sacrifice,
missing conveniences and delights in life for spirituality.

Even as an atheist this makes sense to me. but the case of Jesus is very confusing.

Jesus death was not like a pagan sacrifice as appeasement or giving something back.

It was like the Passover lamb that was killed and it's blood painted on door posts. This sacrifice was the final plague that effected the release of Israel and its birth as a nation.

Jesus death was this same kind of 'sacrifice' that was of value to those who were protected by the blood on the doors and death to those that didn't.

a reply to: Dr1Akula
The two goats on the Day of Atonement were a single 'sacrifice' in which one died and one lived...here is a good example of death and resurrection.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Humanity is barbaric. Humanity destroys its children everyday. So, God says, "Let me save them by sacrificing my own perfect Son". How can that bother you when millions of other innocents die by the hand of the irresponsible and selfish who do it to gain their own freedom?

It's a sacrifice. He didn't have to do it. He simply knew that He had to. Think. There was no reason for Him to be tempted at all if it was not to be by His own choice. And the reward was not for Him. He did not have to leave Heaven. He did not have to come to us and suffer and die. It is our right to die. He chose to do it for us so that we may live because He did it for us. It is an arrogant child that says to their Father, "Your going to work for me is your job. It's not a sacrifice you do for me, you fictional sky fairy."

Self-respect is pointless. Can you shake hands with yourself and feel good? Will you greet yourself in the mirror and scorn any passerby? Will you build up your own talents and forego recognizing a good spirit in another? What good is self-respect? Even this society is against you, for everyone knows that humility is greater than self-respect.

Independence is good in context. It's also wrong in context. If it is beneficial to others for you to function in a group and you choose to go your own way which gives you no benefit at all, that's delinquency. But if being independent means that you're not relying on others for those things which you have been granted power over, then yes, it's good. This seems obvious.

And finally, God isn't hocus pocus. He doesn't do tricks. He owns and created the mechanism of existence. He can do what He wants. Why is this so absolutely difficult for people?

Because of sin. People think if they put their hands over their eyes and say, "I can't see God, He's not there" and stick their fingers in their ears, then they can do whatever they want without having to report to anyone.

Here's a merciful secret: I almost guarantee that the only mistake other people are making any different than me on a daily basis is rejecting the only One who can save them. None of you are in prison, I don't think. Most of you seem lucid, I think. Therefore, I think I am no better than any of you. How silly of anyone to be so ironically selfish as to ignore the only One who actually has the power to help them.

It's like the child that refuses to take the medicine because it smells strange or tastes funny. It's like the person who is afraid to get their tooth removed or replaced at the dentist. It is like the person who is afraid to research and think in order to learn. It is like the cat that rejects the bath. It is like the paranoid investor. It is like a procrastinating author. No, it's much easier than even all of these things. It's like the person who cannot turn off the television. It's like the person who will starve before expending the energy necessary to even order a pizza. It is like the person who won't wake up to the alarm even after 6 hours of sleep. It is like the chess player that refuses to make a move because of all of the possible moves, being neglectful that there are many more possible combinations to overcome most circumstances - and also is afraid to fail, which is necessary.

It is like a person who says that businesses don't exist because they're too afraid to draw up the advertisement and go out for their own.

It is like a person who is too lazy to shower because they might be clean and then what would they do?

It is like a person who, when it snows deep, they keep trying to pull the car out, but neglect the shovel, sticks, and chains and curse the snow for existing and all the suffering it causes to those for whom it gets in the way of their daily business.

It is like a person who would rather hold their urine rather than to simply go relieve themselves, even when the bathroom is free.

It is like a person who is driving on the highway when traffic is backed up, and when coming upon an exit, the person stays in the traffic in spite of the exit out of anger for the injustice of their inconvenience.

It is like a person who, when a plane is going down, is offered a parachute and responds, "It will malfunction anyway."

It is like a person that becomes impatient with the doctor when he is spelling out plainly how the disease works with many examples after the patient has already refused the diagnosis and the cure.

a reply to: Dr1Akula

By reading and accepting the bible as truth, you are trusting some mysterious unknown people of the desert that lived in times when ignorance, and superstitions flourished tell the truth... the only truth

The very first verse of the Bible demonstrates your ignorance of the
topic completely and with out doubt.



I hope you realise how shallow you are?

originally posted by: randyvs
The very first verse of the Bible demonstrates your ignorance of the
topic completely and with out doubt.

....

I hope you realise how shallow you are?

Please... don't you think you're reaching a bit too much with that correlation? You might as well say that in Genesis 30:39 when Jacob places his flock in front of different shapes to make the offspring of the flock have stripes or spots, that it really is describing evolution and adaptation to the surrounding environment of the organism.

Care to address all the other claims in the bible that we now know, as common knowledge, to be inaccurate. Bats are birds, whales are fish, so on and so forth?

a reply to: TarzanBeta
The problem with humanity is disease and death.

So Jesus goes though death and out the other side and invites all who will believe to follow in their turn and to do good to everyone even their enemies until their turn comes.

originally posted by: SuperFrog
If there were 2 people in begging, who did make their kids babies with?? Incest??

Same with Noah's family after big flush??? Incest and lots of it, apparently...

Yes.

originally posted by: SuperFrog
but if we here only short time as you believe, how do you explain that there is so many of us different,

I do not understand your question.

originally posted by: SuperFrog
and how come we have evidence of humans living before your Adam and Eve??

We don't. Radioactive dating is based on faulty assumptions, and the results are cherry-picked to suit whatever finding they want to find.

originally posted by: SuperFrog
Please, explain that to me, and while you at it, is incest considered sin or not??

Something is only a sin if and while it is declared to be so by God.

originally posted by: Dr1Akula
Hahaha... Adam had two sons, to whom they got married?

"3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters."

Genesis 5:3-4

a reply to: SuperFrog

Incest is a modern taboo. It's actually quite common throughout history, for various reasons.

Remember, Sarah was Abraham's half-sister. Yes, that Abraham, "the father of the faithful." They had the same dad. Eeew! It's not usually wise to view the ancient past with modern spectacles.

originally posted by: Dr1Akula
But Adam wasn't perfect, if he was he wouldn't sin,

Being perfect does not mean one is unable to sin. It only means that one is not naturally inclined to do so.

originally posted by: Dr1Akula
And since God is omniscient he already knew that adam would sin, and all mankind would be cursed.
God knew all this before creating Adam.

No. You are misrepresenting God's omniscience. Not meaning to be rude, but finding it to be unavoidable, you are a person that believes that Adam only had two sons. Such belief does not even raise to the level of Theology 101. Do you really think that you are qualified to discuss topics that would require you to have read people like Aquinas to have a chance at grasping them?

originally posted by: Dr1Akula
I would never imagine that multitasking or short time would be an issue for God.

The issue is not on God's side. It is on everyone else's.

originally posted by: Dr1Akula
What I am supposed to think when I hear about ''blood must be spilled to save from sins, even if it's not yours'', death, and sacrifices? Doesn't this sound satanic to you?

No.

originally posted by: Dr1Akula
An omnipotent God wouldn't take so much time, while so many innocents suffer everyday...

Again, you are entitled to your opinion. I beg to differ.

originally posted by: Dr1Akula
But he didn't die, death is permanent. We can't call it death, that's our main discussion, and so God didn't sacrificed his own son since He still has him by His side.

the people who die because of sin stay dead, He didn't, so he didn't exactly follow his own rules.

No, the main discussion is how was it a sacrifice. Who told you death is permanent when there are so many different reports of resurrections in the Bible, both in the OT and in the NT?

originally posted by: Dr1Akula
I agree on that but imo it's not a matter of characters for Christianity to make sense, it rather needs some hard mental gymnastics to define logic and accept dogmatism, if you are not born and raised to be part of it.

It simply requires effort, like any other discipline that requires effort in order to be fully understood. To put it in simple human terms, you are attempting to tackle a subject of Quantum Physics with the knowledge you remember having studied of Newtonian Physics in high school and finding that nothing is making much sense. Which really won't, in this case.

originally posted by: Ghost147
Care to address all the other claims in the bible that we now know, as common knowledge, to be inaccurate. Bats are birds, whales are fish, so on and so forth?

Sure. Linnaeus decided to classify animals in a way. The people who wrote the Bible disagreed with his methods of classification and followed a different method. Or didn't you know that all those classifications are purely arbitrary?