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How exactly was Jesus' crucifixion a sacrifice?

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posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 09:58 PM
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The cross has as much to do with Christianity as the Swastika has to do with Nazis, which is very little, compared to all of history.
Nazi skins also later tried to assimilate the "Fred Perry" wear of the Mods for it's laurel wreath, and overall style.
Gangs will shoot a bike messenger because he rolls his pant leg up on the right so not to get caught in the chain. They think it means they are in another gang.
People who don't understand symbolism, yet attempt to use it, most often find themselves feeling confused and looking rather silly.
Or find themselves serving a long term for killing someone over a shirt or pant leg roll, because they not only don't understand how to correctly identify their "enemy" based on these false understandings of symbology, but also don't understand the rest of the world doesn't give a crap about their tiny little narrow minded world and doesn't even have "enemies."
In my opinion, that tiny little cell suits them well.
edit on 23-10-2015 by KAOStheory because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 11:00 PM
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originally posted by: vethumanbeing
More inaccuracies? NO! Magic flying carpets do not exist (of course they do, misinterpreted).


So, not denying ignorance then? Got it. (unless I just completely misread your sarcasm)



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 11:05 PM
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originally posted by: Ghost147

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
More inaccuracies? NO! Magic flying carpets do not exist (of course they do, misinterpreted).


So, not denying ignorance then? Got it. (unless I just completely misread your sarcasm)




This is ATS.
You are required to prove that flying carpets DON'T exist.



posted on Oct, 24 2015 @ 01:35 AM
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originally posted by: KAOStheory
This is ATS.
You are required to prove that flying carpets DON'T exist.



Here we go again....
Who ever said magic carpet does not exist?!

It exists in fairy tales and mythology, movies... just the same like rest of bible stories...


a reply to: vethumanbeing

Just as Ghost suggested, open topic about this and we can discuss it... Let's not derail this discussion...



posted on Oct, 24 2015 @ 02:11 AM
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a reply to: vethumanbeing

I tend to believe these older pagan religions and mythfacts were probably closest to the truth than what we have now with the bible and such.



posted on Oct, 24 2015 @ 04:54 AM
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a reply to: Ghost147




It would be meaningful if he was an actual human who didn't know what was going to become of him if he were to take that path, but he did know.


Do you know any humans who would have done what Jesus did?




posted on Oct, 24 2015 @ 05:08 AM
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originally posted by: Ghost147
Crucifixion has been a part of ancient civilization for thousands of years (it even occurs to this day, at much lower numbers, sometimes willingly). Tens of thousands, if not 100's of thousands of people have been crucified, and it makes me wonder, just how is the story of Jesus a sacrifice in the first place?

The way Jesus eventually was killed isn't the main issue though. The biggest flaw in the story is that Jesus was sent to earth, from an eternal realm, which means his 30ish years on earth really weren't anything at all, and since he is god (or part of him or what have you, depending on your beliefs) he would have already known that he was going to be killed, and sent right back up to heaven.

Is this not an issue in the eyes of all Christians? 30 years out of infinite is very minuscule, and he would have suffered for a very, very short period of time, all along knowing that he'd be right back up in heaven. Where is the sacrifice in that?

To me, it would make a lot more sense Jesus went down to Earth, did his thing and spreed his message, and then eternally went to Hell afterwards. Would that not be an infinitely more powerful and moving sacrifice. Knowing that he would spend the rest of eternity in Hell, rather than knowing he'd be right back to super-perfect heaven?

Just something that was on my mind. Could someone please explain to me how his "sacrifice" was really a sacrifice?


it was a sacrifice of flesh to prove to us that the spirit can live on and be lifted up by God after death in a world where people did not know and still dont know enough to believe and do as instructed. without wincing or whining, he did what he had to do, and when it was time to die, and the jews feel like they were going to do him something and silence him once and for all. but they were wrong, and they dont understand how they were wrong. they killed his skin suit. but not him.

his sacrifice was a message, to say, stop killing eachother, ur wasting time and keeping ur own selves down. you kill someone else skin suit to slow them down and you ensure that your spiritual life will be snuffed out. the real death. second death. jesus message is to stop clinging and killing eachother in the "fight for survival of the fittest". we are better than that. smarter than that. we are capable of functioning and thinking beyond animal level.

he demonstrated the poise of a spiritual immortal. there would be no war, no murder, no crime, if everyone knew that they wouldnt die. it is because everyone is afraid that "nothing comes after death" is why you live the way you do. if you really knew and believed in the after life. the life of the spirit which houses itself in a skin suit, then youd be totally different people. which is why God made this place. the ones who make the ultimate sacrifice in full faith of the spiritual life promised by God, will be given eternal life in that spiritual form. and all the nuances of physical existence will no longer set limits on their spiritual freedom.
edit on 24-10-2015 by John333 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 24 2015 @ 05:23 AM
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a reply to: randyvs

Do you know any humans who would have done what Jesus did?

What?

Do you not understand his points??

The entire idea is that he wasn't human. That's kinda the point. He was god, or a demigod. Either way he was apparently cognizant of his divinity and his place in the Heavens. In eternal life.

So your question makes very little sense!

Your question:

"Do you know any humans who would have done what Jesus did?"

Umm no we don't. We don't know any human that would sacrifice themselves knowing full well with certainty that they are god.
edit on 24-10-2015 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 24 2015 @ 08:06 AM
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originally posted by: JackReyes

Yep. That is why true believers are willing to suck it up and deal with it, in this system. Good analogy. Even Paul said:

(Romans 8:18) . . .Consequently I reckon that the sufferings of the present season do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us.

That's how you can distinguish a true Christian from a false. You see, the true one is able to endure until the end. Knowing the outcome. A false one, will not be able too. He has no faith.


Sorry, not seeing the sacrifice. He hung around for a day then went to Forever-Ice-Cream Land. He knew the eventual outcome and therefore it was not much of a sacrifice in my opinion.

If the myth was he would roast in hell for all eternity, then that there is a real sacrifice.



posted on Oct, 24 2015 @ 08:07 AM
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originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy

Umm no we don't. We don't know any human that would sacrifice themselves knowing full well with certainty that they are god.


And more importantly, would not die.



posted on Oct, 24 2015 @ 09:37 AM
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originally posted by: toktaylor
a reply to: cooperton

Wasn't this accomplish by the flood?? I thought mankind got a reboot by wiping out everything (via the flood) and starting over with the sacred family of Noah.


The flood was the first reboot, if you will, but, Noah's lineage was not perfect either. The perfect sacrifice was still required to atone for humankind's blunders.


How come nothing has changed since...SIN is still rampant...people still dies, sickness, suffering etc....Where is the evidence that the curse has been lifted???


We still have free will, so people can still sin. For those who repent (meaning to change your mind), and follow truth (the opposite of sin) in every sense of the word, there is a surprise waiting; read the Gospel of John if you are actually interested. Until the final day, people will still be able to sin. On the final day, the second coming, everything will be resolved and the weeds will be pulled out.

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”



posted on Oct, 24 2015 @ 10:30 AM
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This is the central flaw in the Christian story.

What is? The simple fact that Jesus was crucified.

This was Roman-occupied Judaea, the style of execution was Roman, ergo he was put to death by the Romans...not by the Jews.

I don't know what he did to deserve it but I'm pretty sure it wasn't falsely claiming to be the son of God, as the gospels insist.

The Romans were a brutal bunch but I don't believe that was a crucifiable offence, even in their eyes. And especially not as a favour for the Jewish pharisees.



posted on Oct, 24 2015 @ 10:34 AM
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a reply to: Ghost147


The only thing is, he is immortal, so he didn't really die in the first place, and there was no threat what so ever that he may in fact go to hell (like there supposedly is for all of us). He already knew he was going right back to heaven, after what wouldn't even be considered a single nanosecond of his existence

You are assuming that Jesus was immortal but He was not immortal. In His preexistence as the Word He was immortal but the sacrifice was that He became mortal (Jesus the man) with the same doubts that you and I have today. All that He accomplished was done through fasting and prayer and not through Himself.

He was not certain that He could or would be restored. He said as much as He was dying.

Matthew_27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mark_15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

He prayed in the Garden that He would not have to die which proves His humanity.

Mark 14:34-36
(34) And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
(35) And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
(36) And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

His entire existence as a a human was through faith that His Father could pull this off. God never expects of you and I what His Son has not done Himself. This is why the scriptures tell us that we can do as He did and even greater than what what He did if we can master the faith to do it.

Simply because Jesus forgave a person their particular sin was in no way a pass in getting out of a judgment after death. The sacrifice was that He made a way out of Sheol into eternal celestial life as He descended into Sheol and led the sanctified captives out of captivity. Without His sacrifice all would still be in Sheol till the end of the world and then be annihilated with the universe. The Word took a chance and through faith became Jesus to accomplish exactly that. Was Jesus scared? Did Jesus fear death and pain? Did Jesus have doubts? I think He did.



posted on Oct, 24 2015 @ 10:52 AM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: JackReyes

Yep. That is why true believers are willing to suck it up and deal with it, in this system. Good analogy. Even Paul said:

(Romans 8:18) . . .Consequently I reckon that the sufferings of the present season do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us.

That's how you can distinguish a true Christian from a false. You see, the true one is able to endure until the end. Knowing the outcome. A false one, will not be able too. He has no faith.


Sorry, not seeing the sacrifice. He hung around for a day then went to Forever-Ice-Cream Land. He knew the eventual outcome and therefore it was not much of a sacrifice in my opinion.

If the myth was he would roast in hell for all eternity, then that there is a real sacrifice.


you gotta get the whole picture. man im gonna do u and many a solid here...

so like God created man with free will and stuff. and then the very frst rule he set on his first creation they broke the rule as soon as he turned his back. no biggy.. God knew they would, he created them with free will so he brought them into being with the personal option to disobey external commands if they chose to. anyway.. it was all a setup. because before he made us he knew we was gonna break the rule in our "innocent ignorance". he knew he had created Gods who didnt graduate through the ranks. but were born Gods. but like all children and growing things.. requires training, practice and learning.

so he created this place. a place full of rules so we could get used to the idea. and free will allows us a choice always in RULE-WORLD. he sent us here, and placed heavy restrictions on our Godly powers encasing us in flesh. US in this case being figuratively (adam and eve). so adam and eve went and made kids down here because thats the rule here. no magic power childmaking.. straight sex and painful labour to get it done. so they are born into this world with nothing but the stories from their parents. they also made children who only had the stories of their grandparents, being tod by parents and so on and so on. naturally.. many used their free will to stray from the instructions and teaching in the story. but one held rigid to it. and he taught his children. but only one of his children held rigid to it. and so it went down to noah. everyone else used their free will for pure enjoyment and personal pleasure. having no time for God or the purpose of their existence. so God..using history to make a story that would live on for eons, wiped out all the bad eggs(as planned) and allowed the one Good egg to escape unscatrhed with his family, to begin propogation again from a divine bloodline. but this time, thall their children are born into a world where they know.. God will wipe you out if u not serving purpose and save the ones serving purpose.

so the teachings went on and God rose all his prophets to kingship to lead and teach the people in all the regions of the earth the path of divinity which allows them to have God on speed dial. so like everyone wanted to have God on speed dial too, having seen both his destructive and saving power. and from the story of their history and coming to be which carried with it the teaching of "how to make God proud of you". these people who followed the teachings were considered "Jews". not the religious sect known today as Jews. Jews in this case, were people of all races in all regions. anyone who chose to believe and aspire to please their Creator in the way that he instructed both directly and through the prophets. this is a Jew(ancient Jew).

but anyway, among those Jews, the people would eventually through their freedom of choice, mislead themselves away from the teachings of the prophets for various reasons. so God. would again use them as a historical example and teaching as a moral for future generations to live by. once favoured highly by God, once they turned against God, God then turned against them. demonstrating his neutrality and justness in judgement.

now that he has created those two historical examples that would make up the history of man and the entire old testament. God would now, send his already spiritually born "Son" through the gate of physical birth so he can join us and live among us. Jesus, was guided and comforted from day one by God's spirit while in his fleshly existence. he perfectly adhered to the will of the spirit, just as he would in Heaven, even though he was in this impure world of imperfection and restriction. this was a major accomplishment in setting of example. reminding us again, that it is faith that makes us strong to forgive our enemy and bring peace. the spirit teaches us that faith and belief is Trusting in God.

and so, it is this faith, . this unshakable, paramount faith, which Jesus had as a God given a spiritual body to inhabit. taking a physical body to as high synchronicity and purity of spirit as is possible on earth. demonstrating not only that we should not fear death, but also.. even with all Jesus power which he could stop the madness and wipe them all out with a thought, he didnt. because his objective wasnt to wipe us out. his objective was to demonstrate. he demonstrated death, a lack of fear of death, and as the story goes, conquered death, descended into hell, and came out of his own volition(and that of God).

the moral is pure and the story is true. so an already knowing of the afterlife came to earth to die and show us its no big deal. that way, those who have faith would stop seeking punishment through murder of their enemies. and many things which can be forgiven by man, through understanding freedom. like adultery etc. once a man would be allowed to kill his wife for adultery. and now.. we are asked to remember this was never supposed to be, that we are supposed to learn to forgive and not mete out harsh punishments for others' failings especially since, we fail too, yet seem to avoid punishment. they are the jews/hebrews that became christians. all over north south east and west europe, asia and africa.

with the new details on moral behaviur and on pleasing God, came an upgrade in our legal system, and allowed us to now pursue.. "SELF GOVERNANCE" through a thing called democracy. yes many do not know.. but democracy, the very democracy they utilize to bring down christianity, was created by christianity, to allow them freedom of expression to do so without seeking to kill them. as would have happened in another time.

so God even protects the atheists, all of his creation from tyranny and the whims of man on a power trip. for centuries, while we work it all out. i want to say alot more but im trying to stay on topic.

anyway.. so now u Got all that, Jesus made many sacrifices to bring you the message of death and life.

1st. left his heavenly abode to come and live amongt the cretins
2nd. didnt kill us all even with all the power he had in self defense. or use it to rule the world
3rd died just to show us that even wtith all his power and his great life, killing us all to save his own body wasnt worth it. to demonstrate that the body, was soooo low and trivial, in all the talents of a God.



posted on Oct, 24 2015 @ 11:03 AM
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a reply to: TarzanBeta

One, its barbaric to worship an instrument of torture. I don't care why you do it. It's also barbaric to make sacrifices to sun gods, or to do it using "blood magic".

Two, that's still not a sacrifice. He did his job and got paid for it. We do it every day, to a greater or lesser degree.

Thirdly, self-respect is not arrogance anymore than independence is delinquency.

Fourthly, and perhaps most importantly: hocus pocus isn't real.
edit on 24-10-2015 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 24 2015 @ 11:08 AM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy

Umm no we don't. We don't know any human that would sacrifice themselves knowing full well with certainty that they are god.


And more importantly, would not die.


continued..

so his sacrifice was a sacrifice of flesh, of his physical body, together with all the desires of physicality. power, money etc. he said, this is how you become a God. died and left like a sunday stroll in the park. cuz thats just how Gods roll.

if we were smart though, we wouldve asked him to rule us instead of trying to take his head. and then everything would be magical for everyone today. thered be no war or suffering etc. i reckon 6 out of 7bn ppl would be enlightened and the rest on their way. but we didnt. we got jealous and tried tempt God to give us some special attention(the negative time) by saying "ok you're the son of God, so if we try to kill you God will save you right?". but that wasnt the plan. instead it was God who already knew and tempted us to do that very thing. and when the Jews killed Jesus, they would suffer for a loooong time to come. the kings of the earth were stripped of their power and democracy installed.. globally. the missionaries were sent even into the jungles to spread the news that the redeemer had come and that it was time for them to join the modern world God planned for his followers under Christianity(the new/real Jews"true followers of God and the prophets)"). slaves were taken from all pagan races/tribes and spread across the earth continuing the mixbreeding efforts that were encouraged since the time of moses and God declaring incest no longer acceptable. tthese many primitive tribes people would be guided away from there pagan ways into the world of new understanding and greater detail of understanding God. they live in america, uk, india and well everywhere else today.

such has been the effort of the mix breeding and co-mingling program that humans have yet to pass. co-exist!



posted on Oct, 24 2015 @ 11:11 AM
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a reply to: John333

How can something immortal die?



posted on Oct, 24 2015 @ 11:21 AM
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a reply to: John333

So Jesus would trick you into letting him rule the world by allowing you to use him as a magic generator? Sounds like gluttony all around. Pretty funny actually.



posted on Oct, 24 2015 @ 11:27 AM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: John333

How can something immortal die?



through the looking glass

from physical reality side, u believe life is the body. thus when the body dies u believe you have died.

from the spiritual side. the spirit is the body and the life. the physical body is just a temporary allocation that was formed by the spirit.

so a spiritually awakened being like jesus, can apper to die from this side of the looking glass.. the physical side. but from the spiritual side he just lost a container. if it ould even be considered "lost". what is truly lost to a God that has power and ownership over everything?

if ur talking about physically immortal human being? maybe it just means they can live forever without aging but their container can still get messed up to the point where they have to depart from it. but if theyre spiritual they could probably just repair it or build a new one with a thought lol.



posted on Oct, 24 2015 @ 11:30 AM
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a reply to: John333

How can Jesus die if he is immortal? The myth claims he sent himself here, got crucified and now sits next to himself. Is he dead?

No. So therefore, no sacrifice.




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