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How exactly was Jesus' crucifixion a sacrifice?

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posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 03:05 PM
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originally posted by: cooperton

We know a migraine will end in a short amount of time... does this mean migraine sufferers do not suffer?


If it was only once and the got to eat ice cream forever after that I think they would suck it up and deal with it.




posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 03:27 PM
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originally posted by: Blue Shift
This has been debated for over a thousand years.

Was Jesus a man playing god, or a god playing a man?
And if he was both man and god, is it possible for other men to be gods?


Much bigger question is, did Jesus exist at all?!

There is no single piece of evidence he ever lived outside of bible, yet somehow he was very important?!

Something just does not make sense...



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 03:27 PM
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originally posted by: Blue Shift
This has been debated for over a thousand years.

Was Jesus a man playing god, or a god playing a man?
And if he was both man and god, is it possible for other men to be gods?
if a church can convince millions of people that god is jesus and a ghost at the same time, they can convince them of other things such as going to war and dying. it hasn't been debated for thousands of years but it has been wrongly trusted without question for thousands. And if you did question it, ironically enough you got crucified. That is not a debate though.



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 03:28 PM
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Ghost, did you really want an answer to your question?
edit on 23-10-2015 by Stormdancer777 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 03:28 PM
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originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: Blue Shift
This has been debated for over a thousand years.

Was Jesus a man playing god, or a god playing a man?
And if he was both man and god, is it possible for other men to be gods?


Much bigger question is, did Jesus exist at all?!

There is no single piece of evidence he ever lived outside of bible, yet somehow he was very important?!

Something just does not make sense...
They do have some evidence such as him having a brother James, if you prove James existed you prove Jesus existed and they have ossuaries of the whole family. But that gets buried by the catholic church, Israel, and MSM because they disprove the religious nature of Jesus (why have an ossuary with bones in it if Jesus rose to heaven and the tomb was empty?)



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 03:29 PM
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originally posted by: Stormdancer777
Ghost, did you really want an answer to you question?
do you have an answer that doesn't involve blindly trusting popes?



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 03:31 PM
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originally posted by: HorusChrist

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
Ghost, did you really want an answer to you question?
do you have an answer that doesn't involve blindly trusting popes?


You DO know that half of the Christians in the world aren't Catholic, right?



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 03:34 PM
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originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: cooperton
Because he still felt all the pain.


Big deal. He still knew it would all end in a relatively short amount of time.


We know a migraine will end in a short amount of time... does this mean migraine sufferers do not suffer?


A migraine is an inconvenience, not a sacrifice. Not only that but in the grand scope of your life (80 years or so)? how much difference did that migraine make?


originally posted by: hudsonhawk69
a reply to: Ghost147


Yeah dude it's called the nature of christ.

For Jesus crucifixion to be truly a sacrifice he must have taken human form and not known all of that other god stuff. That way not only is it truly a sacrifice but perfection becomes an attainable goal for all people as well...


I understand that in order for a god to be crucified they need to be in human form, but you can't really he had no knowledge of that other 'god stuff'. Unless I am mistaken, Jesus was completely aware of heaven and Hell, so on and so forth, both during the time on Earth as well as before hand.



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 03:36 PM
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originally posted by: cooperton
originally posted by: vethumanbeing


cooperton: This is the crux of the matter... He had to die as an atonement for the sins of mankind, and thus lift the curse established by Adam and Eve... or as they say it in the bible "the veil was apart" (The veil in the OT disallowed complete communion with God). This is why I said he was a karmic sponge... he died to atone for the sins of humankind, and the gates to paradise were re-opened once the curse was lifted.


Who was in charge that allowed 'knowledge' to be given to the human? What is the secret metaphor regarding enlightenment. At this same moment the human lost its ability to commune telepathically with a higher source. When did this happen; the "adama eva" myth explains this circumstance in a fairy tale childish fashion. This tale actually references our genetic manipulation.
edit on 23-10-2015 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 03:40 PM
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originally posted by: Stormdancer777
Ghost, did you really want an answer to your question?


Yes, absolutely. Unlike Theists, Atheists would actually really enjoy be proven wrong about the lack of evidence towards a deity. It would be a tremendous find to actually know empirically that Heaven exists. I don't think any Atheists defends their lack of faith to the extent that they would reject reality. If there is actual, definitive proof that god exists, there wouldn't be any atheists.

On the other hand, there is mounds and mounds of evidence that suggests the total opposite, and that Nature is the reason for the things we see around us, not a mystical being. Theists, regardless of the simplicity of the topic, and the amount of evidence, however, will time after time reject information that doesn't perceivable support their own preconceived mythical stories about the universe.


edit on 23/10/15 by Ghost147 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 04:16 PM
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originally posted by: intrepid
originally posted by: HorusChrist
originally posted by: Stormdancer777
Ghost, did you really want an answer to you question?do you have an answer that doesn't involve blindly trusting popes?


intrepid: You DO know that half of the Christians in the world aren't Catholic, right?

And those catholic numbers are declining in membership (USA) because the culture of this nation is changing. Catholic Rules, (fierce dogmatic enforcement of 1400's AD ideology) do not apply in this modern world of free thinking individuals. I will go further here; the RCC was the equivalent of radical Islam (today existing) within its past greatest influences/barbaric enforcements.
edit on 23-10-2015 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 04:50 PM
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originally posted by: Ghost147
originally posted by: Stormdancer777

Stormdancer777: Ghost, did you really want an answer to your question?



Ghost147: Yes, absolutely. Unlike Theists, Atheists would actually really enjoy be proven wrong about the lack of evidence towards a deity. It would be a tremendous find to actually know empirically that Heaven exists. I don't think any Atheists defends their lack of faith to the extent that they would reject reality. If there is actual, definitive proof that god exists, there wouldn't be any atheists.

You are saying Atheists may have the same blind faith Theists hinge their own precarious belief system upon? There is no evidence of a deity (proclaimed as such evident) unless you look at the beauty of the ecosystems; the impossible mind boggling human DNA genome.


Ghost147: On the other hand, there is mounds and mounds of evidence that suggests the total opposite, and that Nature is the reason for the things we see around us, not a mystical being. Theists, regardless of the simplicity of the topic, and the amount of evidence, however, will time after time reject information that doesn't perceivable support their own preconceived mythical stories about the universe.

There is nothing simple here. This world contains a very complex diverse system of millions of life forms existing together within one ecosystem that if one has common sense; would recognize the shear impossibility of this happening as an "accidental chance occurrence" challenges the sanity of those thinking this "One of a Kind Living Library" has no purpose at all, no thought given to its creation.

edit on 23-10-2015 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 04:52 PM
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From my own perspective ( having had substantial exposure to the bible )....Jesus sacrifice was much more than his crucifixion.... And I don't think that there are too many people on this forum that would volunteer for that alone. I know I wouldn't. His sacrifice was something that effected his entire life here. It is said that he was a man " of sorrows and acquainted with grief " Isa 53:3. Also on the night before his crucifixion..in the garden of Gethsemane when his physical suffering began. The bible says that he was sweating great drops of blood...( maybe you guy's have sweat blood before and it's no big deal for you ). Paul makes reference to this when he says "You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin " Heb 12:4.

Now let me ask those of you that consider yourselves to have an accurate view of "justice" a question. If you are driving to work one day and animal runs out in front of you and you "accidentally" run over it. Now.....you were not speeding or driving recklessly in any way...and yet here is this innocent animal flailing about in the road mortally wounded because of your action. Is it "just" for the animal to pay this price of suffering for your action ? If you determine that it is NOT just for the animal to pay this price...what do you consider to be "just" ? Would it be just for you and the animal to trade places and have the animal in human form "accidentally" run you over ?

The point I am trying to make by the above example is that we have ALL accumulated more debt then we would want to pay for. Now....there is a verse in the bible that says Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world , Rev 13:8. This may not seem to be of much significance to many readers...but when we consider it on a deeper level. We can see it has great significance. The bible says that Jesus was the one that brought the world into being. "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him " Col 1:16 . Now when you put the two together you see that it would have been unethical for Jesus to create a world where the potential for suffering was so great...without making provision for us to be delivered from the debt of it...and by having that provision in place at the very foundation of it's creation. It was by seeing things like this that my faith began to be established more fully in these things.



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 04:55 PM
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originally posted by: vethumanbeing
There is nothing simple about this. This is a very complex diverse system of millions of life forms existing together within one ecosystem that if one has common sense; would recognize the shear impossibility of this happening as an "accidental chance occurrence" .


Who ever said evolution is accidental??

I think you're bit off here...



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 04:58 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: cooperton

We know a migraine will end in a short amount of time... does this mean migraine sufferers do not suffer?


If it was only once and the got to eat ice cream forever after that I think they would suck it up and deal with it.


Yep. That is why true believers are willing to suck it up and deal with it, in this system. Good analogy. Even Paul said:

(Romans 8:18) . . .Consequently I reckon that the sufferings of the present season do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us.

That's how you can distinguish a true Christian from a false. You see, the true one is able to endure until the end. Knowing the outcome. A false one, will not be able too. He has no faith.



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 05:06 PM
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originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
There is nothing simple about this. This is a very complex diverse system of millions of life forms existing together within one ecosystem that if one has common sense; would recognize the shear impossibility of this happening as an "accidental chance occurrence" .


Who ever said evolution is accidental??
I think you're bit off here...

Timing is off. Elephants have been here for 250 million years and the only tool use they've mastered is the original trunk they were born with. Sharks; 350 million years and for some reason are not land mammals (in fact not evolved at all). Why did the human accidently evolve and the simians forget to do so? One would think all specie would evolve at the same rate humans did (within the last 100,000 years) at the same spectacular rate.
edit on 23-10-2015 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 05:26 PM
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originally posted by: vethumanbeing
You are saying Atheists may have the same blind faith Theists hinge their own precarious belief system upon? There is no evidence of a deity (proclaimed as such evident) unless you look at the beauty of the ecosystems; the impossible mind boggling human DNA genome.


No, Atheists don't have a blind faith on anything to do with A Deity (I'm not sure what you're really talking about here). There is no evidence of a deity, but that doesn't mean there is no possibility of one, which is why I stated that it wouldn't be surprising if many atheists would actually enjoy discovering an actual god, definitively.


originally posted by: vethumanbeing
There is nothing simple here. This world contains a very complex diverse system of millions of life forms existing together within one ecosystem that if one has common sense; would recognize the shear impossibility of this happening as an "accidental chance occurrence" challenges the sanity of those thinking this "One of a Kind Living Library" has no purpose at all, no thought given to its creation.


No one said that ecosystems arose to what they are today by 'accidental chance'. When I was talking about simplicity, I was referring to many scientific topics that are otherwise quite easy to understand.


originally posted by: HarryJoy
Now let me ask those of you that consider yourselves to have an accurate view of "justice" a question. If you are driving to work one day and animal runs out in front of you and you "accidentally" run over it. Now.....you were not speeding or driving recklessly in any way...and yet here is this innocent animal flailing about in the road mortally wounded because of your action. Is it "just" for the animal to pay this price of suffering for your action ? If you determine that it is NOT just for the animal to pay this price...what do you consider to be "just" ? Would it be just for you and the animal to trade places and have the animal in human form "accidentally" run you over ?


I don't see how this equates to anything on topic. Not all actions require the inference of justice. There is causality in effect, but to claim justice was or should be involved in this particular scenario makes no sense. 'Just' would imply someone did something wrong, and the event that occurred or should have occurred required some sort of moral issue to be resolved. Which there isn't any moral implications of an animal getting run over accidentally, it was simply cause and effect.


originally posted by: HarryJoy
The point I am trying to make by the above example is that we have ALL accumulated more debt then we would want to pay for. Now....there is a verse in the bible that says Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world , Rev 13:8. This may not seem to be of much significance to many readers...but when we consider it on a deeper level. We can see it has great significance. The bible says that Jesus was the one that brought the world into being. "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him " Col 1:16 . Now when you put the two together you see that it would have been unethical for Jesus to create a world where the potential for suffering was so great...without making provision for us to be delivered from the debt of it...and by having that provision in place at the very foundation of it's creation. It was by seeing things like this that my faith began to be established more fully in these things.


But that doesn't answer anything, that just leaves us with more questions. Questions like "If god knows everything in absolutes, then he would have known what would have occurred even before he created the universe." which leads to "If god knew it was going to occur, then his "sacrifice" is even more unnecessary as he could have simply just changed the outcome of the future" so on and so forth.


originally posted by: JackReyes
That's how you can distinguish a true Christian from a false. You see, the true one is able to endure until the end. Knowing the outcome. A false one, will not be able too. He has no faith.


Except for they don't really "know" anything. Their faith is only based on the assumption that what they believe in is true. Which they cannot possible know for certain until they die.


originally posted by: vethumanbeing
Timing is off. Elephants have been here for 250 million years and the only tool use they've mastered is the original trunk they were born with. Sharks; 350 million years and for some reason are not land mammals (in fact not evolved at all). Why did the human accidently evolve and the simians forget to do so? One would think all specie would evolve at the same rate humans did (within the last 100,000 years) at the same spectacular rate.


I think your perception of evolution is extremely obscure; not to mention very Off-Topic. If you'd like I can address those concerns in a topic that relates to it. Care to make one with those same points?



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 06:38 PM
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a reply to: Ghost147
You allowed the thread to drift. I think Jesus was an "Inserted Idea Form" to undermine Roman Rule paganism (in cahoots with the overlord Pharisee Hebrew priests) creating the new idea "the kingdom of heaven is within us" (individualized) as we ourselves without religious dogmatic indoctrination can regain the lost connection to our creator.


edit on 23-10-2015 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 06:53 PM
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originally posted by: vethumanbeing
a reply to: Ghost147
You allowed the thread to drift. I think Jesus was an "Inserted Idea Form" to undermine Roman Rule paganism (in cahoots with the overlord Pharisee Hebrew priests) creating the idea "the kingdom of heaven is within us".



I know, but if you did want an explanation on how those concepts were inaccurate, then it wood certainly be more than thread drifting.

I would say that is a highly likely reason that Jesus was written about. It makes that conclusion ever more likely considering there isn't any authors who wrote the gospels that were even alive during the supposed years that Jesus was alive. Which makes supposed personal account sections in the bible very questionable.



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 07:19 PM
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originally posted by: Ghost147

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
a reply to: Ghost147
You allowed the thread to drift. I think Jesus was an "Inserted Idea Form" to undermine Roman Rule paganism (in cahoots with the overlord Pharisee Hebrew priests) creating the idea "the kingdom of heaven is within us".



I know, but if you did want an explanation on how those concepts were inaccurate, then it wood certainly be more than thread drifting.
I would say that is a highly likely reason that Jesus was written about. It makes that conclusion ever more likely considering there isn't any authors who wrote the gospels that were even alive during the supposed years that Jesus was alive. Which makes supposed personal account sections in the bible very questionable.

More inaccuracies? NO! Magic flying carpets do not exist (of course they do, misinterpreted). Speaking of authors; the first five books of the old testament were borrowed ideas by Moses (channeled from Abraham); from the much older Akkadian/Sumerian Mythtruths. Its all a FAKEOUT; because the origin of the initial information has yet to disclose itself.
edit on 23-10-2015 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)




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