How exactly was Jesus' crucifixion a sacrifice?

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: John333

So Jesus would trick you into letting him rule the world by allowing you to use him as a magic generator? Sounds like gluttony all around. Pretty funny actually.

why is it a trick?

if he demonstrates the wisdom and power of God to an irrefutable degree. why not be led by the smartest guy on earth? couldnt be for any other reason than we're primitive conceited envious beings still.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: John333

How can Jesus die if he is immortal? The myth claims he sent himself here, got crucified and now sits next to himself. Is he dead?

No. So therefore, no sacrifice.

so then i take it you believe in the spirit!?

if so.. i cant disagree with you. as i said its through the looking glass. it would just mean ur seeing it from the spiritual perspective. but from the physical atheist-type perspective.. he died because when the body dies.. tha's it.. ur done. lol

and regarding the beside himself thing. sounds like u need me to explain the trinity. for now ill just be short.

Jesus is not God. Jesus is one with God in Spirit. when Jesus speaks it is the word of God simply because God wouldnt say anything different if we spoke to him ourselves. kinda like an assistant manager who u dont have to question with the boss because he can read his mind and performs exactly what the boss wants.

originally posted by: John333
...
he died because when the body dies.. tha's it.. ur done. lol

But he did not die, the myth says he lives forever in heaven.

Jesus is not God.

That will be news to most Christians I know.

a reply to: John333

why is it a trick?

if he demonstrates the wisdom and power of God to an irrefutable degree. why not be led by the smartest guy on earth? couldnt be for any other reason than we're primitive conceited envious beings still.

please, you arent doing it because of the authority. you said it yourself: everything would be magical. you would live a life of perfect luxury, thats the real prize. its always been the real prize. "eternal life" "riches in paradise" it appeals to human vanity even while decrying human vanity. pretty ironic if you ask me.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Ghost147

It would be meaningful if he was an actual human who didn't know what was going to become of him if he were to take that path, but he did know.

Do you know any humans who would have done what Jesus did?

You do realize the Shroud of Turin has been debunked for quite a long time now.

And yes, I do know of humans that chose to die for the sake of others. The only difference is, in many cases, they suffered FAR greater than Jesus did. You act as if you've never heard of anyone in the world ever sacrificing themselves for the sake of others. You can not possibly be that blind?

Not only did they sacrifice themselves, knowing what pain and suffering they had to endure, but, they did so not knowing what would become of them after they died. Which is far more courageous than Jesus' 'sacrifice'

originally posted by: John333
it was a sacrifice of flesh to prove to us that the spirit can live on and be lifted up by God after death in a world where people did not know and still dont know enough to believe and do as instructed.

Don't you think an all-powerful being could simply convince the global population a bit more sufficiently than what the outcome was? He enlightened a very small portion within one country within the world. Why not show his greatness at a global scale?

And again. It is not a sacrifice to create yourself knowing that you will be killed and then knowing you'll go right back to heaven. That's not a sacrifice, that's a advertisement for your own self interest.

originally posted by: John333
they killed his skin suit. but not him.

Actually, it was the Romans, but I see what your trying to say. And once again, can you not see how killing his "skin suit" but not him, is quite obviously not a sacrifice at all. He had nothing to lose in the first place.

originally posted by: John333
his sacrifice was a message, to say, stop killing eachother, ur wasting time and keeping ur own selves down.

It's funny, because in the previous chapters of the bible (the old testament) he was all for killing each other, even for personal gain. And again, Wouldn't that message be better heard if he had shown his power globally and to everyone, instead of just a select few? Clearly his message didn't go very far, because many romans didn't convert, regardless of his 'power' being shown to them specifically. Which begs to wonder why an all knowing god would do such a thing if he already knew it wasn't going to work in the first place.

a reply to: Ghost147

Well, in order to take away all the sins of the world, The Christ had to become a blood sacrifice (also know as The Lamb). In those days goats, rams, and lambs were sacrificed to cleanse and purify the body/soul from sin. Even if he is immortal and acended, he did suffer greatly because he had an human body and felt the pain and torture. He was hanging and left to die for a long period of time. As for many Christians if they are able to keep 100% faith, hope and patience during the tribulation, must also be ready for a horrible death if it comes their way. When The Christ finally passed on, hell came upon the earth because it became dark for 3 hours.

a reply to: Chargers8181

I understand that he felt some pain, but as said by many before you are viewing it from a perspective of a human. God is supposed to have always existed and to always continue to exist. 30 years is absolutely nothing in comparison to infinity. There for his "sacrifice" means nothing. The pain he felt while in that 6 hours that he was crucified is even less than nothing in comparison to infinity. And knowing that you'd go right back to handy-dandy heaven, means that his action was basically a publicity stunt, rather than a sacrifice. It's a publicity stunt because there was nothing to lose when he did it, and he gained everything (with knowledge with what he was going to accomplish, because he is all-knowing).

If Jesus knew he was going to hell for the rest of eternity, that would be a sacrifice. But no, he spent less than a quarter of a day being hurt and going right back to heaven. That is no sacrifice.

a reply to: Ghost147

He needed to teach the ways of GOD and helped people/sinners find him and inform them about eternal life. I cannot comment on why The Christ was on earth for 30 years if he is infinite. But that was GOD's plan. Christ says he had no say in what the Father planned for him. He did what he was supposed to do. As far as publicity stunts, they are just that, stunts. Christ did not stimulate a crucifixion; he lived it and suffered and as the day and hour got closer to his arrest, the bible mentions that he was nervous and restless knowing he was going to be tortured to death. The blood had to be spilled from him in order to complete his mission. That was the whole point of why he descended to earth

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

So your question makes very little sense!

It makes perfect sense Einstien when applied to what I quoted.

It would be meaningful if he was an actual human who didn't know what was going to become of him if he were to take that path, but he did know.

I don't give one big raspberry about his moot point. The whole reason
for Jesus going to the cross is because no humans blood would be innocent
and no human would see it thru. The price is paid it's done, who paid it
means that much more to the Father whether it means anything to OP
or you or anyone else. All one has to do now is have the brains to accept
what Christ did for us. But oh well, my big question for him is going to be,
how did some people get to be so ignorant, while think'n they had it all
figured out, by listening to other humans. With no more intelligence than
their own and all in a whopping forty to seventy years in most cases. Woo Hoo!

PATHETIC!

a reply to: Ghost147

You do realize the Shroud of Turin has been debunked for quite a long time now.

NEGATIVE!
The image itself dates the cloth.

a reply to: BestinShow

His sacrifice needed to be rewarded...how else would tptb get people to play ball..?

Oh yeah the Illuminati was rampant back then and the books of bible which are in some cases 10,000 years old in some scientist opinions is a diabolical control plan lmao. You people crack me up.

When a Jew or Christian enters a HOLY TEMPLE and performed an animal sacrifice back then it dissolves that persons sin so he can be one with GOD at that time. No person can be with God or in his presence in the heavenly dimension per say until he has dissolved his sin.

Jesus sacrifice was so all on earth could be closer to GOD and be in his presence forever more, just as the person had sacrificed an animal before.

Get it?? He died for all our sins at the same time!!!!!!!

Don't mock GOD or Jesus unless you like being butt raped by Demons for eternity.

a reply to: Akragon
You are welcome.

originally posted by: alkalisunshine
a reply to: vethumanbeing

I tend to believe these older pagan religions and mythfacts were probably closest to the truth than what we have now with the bible and such.

Every written word regarding a creator being comes from someplace, oral history or from very sophisticated written language (Maya, Sumerian). These ideas came from something somewhere. The Old Testament is dated to Moses and Abraham; and that history ends with Yahweh. I don't think so; something told Yahweh "this is how it is". Who might be that being?

originally posted by: Ghost147

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
More inaccuracies? NO! Magic flying carpets do not exist (of course they do, misinterpreted).

So, not denying ignorance then? Got it. (unless I just completely misread your sarcasm)

You did; never ever Sarcasm (to demean another) only Irony, Sardonicism, Satire. Its never about you just the subject at hand.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: TarzanBeta

One, its barbaric to worship an instrument of torture. I don't care why you do it. It's also barbaric to make sacrifices to sun gods, or to do it using "blood magic".

Not actually worshiping the correct instrument of torture device. Crucifixions were performed on a "T" post and beam not a cross. Got it wrong from jump; all of these years spent worshiping an entirely different icon.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: John333

How can something immortal die?

That is the entire point (it doesn't).

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

I don't give one big raspberry about his moot point. The whole reason
for Jesus going to the cross is because no humans blood would be innocent
and no human would see it thru.
The price is paid it's done, who paid it
means that much more to the Father whether it means anything to OP
or you or anyone else.

In other words, God was somehow angry with humans and needed the sacrifice of innocent blood to take the sin away?
And because no human was innocent enough for God he send his own child to be sacrificed instead
But his child was not a human but also a god,1/3 part of the Holy Trinity thus immortal.
So in the end no humans needed to be sacrificed. but neither did Christ since he was immortal to begin with.

To be honest if the body of Christ was found then it would have been a sacrifice. Jesus would have sacrificed his only chance of human life, to serve god. But that is only if Jesus was human and his soul (spirit) immortal just like everyone else

But Since Christians believe he was resurrected then the whole sacrifice thing doesn't make much sense, because then is immortal.

All one has to do now is have the brains to accept what Christ did for us. But oh well, my big question for him is going to be, how did some people get to be so ignorant, while think'n they had it all figured out, by listening to other humans. PATHETIC!

But skeptics do not listen to other humans they just need evidence to believe something , religious people do however listen to other humans,
By reading and accepting the bible as truth, you are trusting some mysterious unknown people of the desert that lived in times when ignorance, and superstitions flourished tell the truth... the only truth

With no more intelligence than their own and all in a whopping forty to seventy years in most cases. Woo Hoo!

Intelligence is something relative in humanity... but if the ''higher'' intelligence that you are referring to, existed...
Then the God-breathed book would be more accurate to the reality and physics of the cosmos and wouldn't claim in Genesis for ex. that the plants predated the sun, and the earth predated the stars...

IF Genesis described the world as we know it today, and guided us through the history and anatomy of earth...
talked about volcano's, tectonics, microbes, dinosaurs, and also described galaxies and black holes and pulsars and the mysteries of life and existence...
then all skeptics would accept the bible as truth, the existence of God and the higher (than human) intelligence.
Then the bible would be the most precious book of all times.

But..., since that didn't happen and bible shares exactly the naive cosmological theories of the people that wrote it ,and no signs of ''higher intelligence'' for its time written, then what is the argument for ''higher intelligence'' excactly?

ps I am not trying to offend your faith, but hope you don't mind analyzing it, and have theological discussions..

originally posted by: Dr1Akula

originally posted by: Jobeycool

You focus way to much on trying to reason this stuff out.According to the bible Jesus did this to show He had real power.He also did it to save man kind from their sin.Jesus did this so mankind can walk in His footprints but they must repent and serve others and love others and love Jesus.
Jesus called real life and death in the after life....Jesus said He would give you eternity life if you followed His ways and said you will get death and torment forever if you do not.So He had to come as flesh to prove Himself to mankind that He loved you more giving you a choice.

Mankind exists since at least 100.000 maybe 200.000 or even more... why did Jesus took so long to come and do the above things you are talking about?
Why this supposed sacrifice to save mankind had to be done only 2000 years ago, how about all those billions poor unsaved souls that lived before that?

Something doesn't add up... don't you smell a scum?

It still is a mystery why God would chose this way of life.My guess is something had God infuriated and it must have been with Lucifer the Angel.Or God felt He gave no purpose to His life and everything was becoming selfish.This stuff is hard to even believe and if you are a christian you will have doubt.However the world is molded exactly as a ongoing battle and war with each other and ones own self control and to forgive and love each other. So as unbelieveable as it sounds,there had to be ongoing struggles and God became furious at what angels where doing before humans where created is how I look at it.God became jealous over it and put a stop to whatever was going on before life was created or evolved,depending how you believe life came about. My own theory is God gave angels the power to do what they wanted before mankind existed and they did stuff he did not like.He may have warned them not to do it.He had the major battle with Lucifer at some point and decided I will show you that I love my creation.Could be God got to the point where He wanted to make purpose for life. Anyways that is my 2 cents worth and my own opinion.

Interesting story but why the omnipotent creator couldn't control his creations (angels)? doesn't make sense...
And how do we know that Lucifer, devil, Satan or whatever name he has... isn't the Hero that tried to save us from the evil dictator God?

After all, according to the bible Satan has killed 10 people and God has killed 2.476.633!

Anyway I don't believe any of these, but I wanted to show you that mythological stories are just stories... and can have any meaning that the prejudged reader wants them to have...

The desert people at that time didn't had, TVs, comforts, newspapers, books, theaters, Ac, education.... nothing
They only had these primitive stories to go by....
No reason in our times to live by these ignorant unnatural superstitious stories, they are just ancient literature.

Enormous difference between me and you.You think mankind existed longer than I do.I believe the bible is true with the Adam and Eve story either through creation or evolution.

a reply to: Ghost147

I confess to not reading all 4 pages of the thread. I read the first one, saw mostly gibberish given that this question is not the usual Christian 101 questions that are asked, and require a little more knowledge of Theology. I assumed that most of the remaining 4 pages would be similar gibberish, but if someone actually did answer your question correctly, I beg your forgiveness for my laziness. It is late and I am tired, but I found the need to not to leave your question unanswered.

Bear with me here, as this is not exactly Christianity 101, and I may unintentionally leave necessary details out. If I do, simply ask and I will fill it out tomorrow morning when I wake up.

The most fundamental aspect you must grasp is that the penalty for sin is death. Human beings are not inherently immortal. Rather, we were given eternal life by God's grace. Eternal life is not the same as immortality. Think of it more like a mortal life that is eternally being extended.

To sin is essentially to fall out of God's grace. God is holy, and being holy means He is ultimately untouched and untouchable by sin. When you sin, He cannot extend His grace to you anymore, and thus you will eventually die, as your life can no longer be infinitely extended by God's grace.

When Adam sinned, he cursed the whole of mankind to be sinners, since as a sinner he could no longer produce a non-sinner progeny in the same way that a bent mold can no longer produce a perfect piece. We are all sinners, we are all out of God's grace, and thus we will all cursed to eventually die.

Understanding that this is not fair to all of mankind to be cursed due to Adam's sin, God thought fitting to provide a means for mankind to be lifted from this curse.

Remember that I said that the penalty for sin is death? It is, was and will always be, but nowhere I said that the penalty for your sin must be your death. "Only by the spilling of blood can sin be forgiven" says the Bible, but nowhere it says that the blood must be yours.

According to God's plan, Jesus came to Earth, and remained sinless for 33 years, and was killed thereafter. When his blood was spilled, there was no sin of his own to pay. Instead, Jesus presented to his father his blood in payment for Adam's sins. Hence, the Bible calls Jesus "a new Adam". With Adam's sins paid by Jesus, mankind's curse was lifted.

This is the essence of Jesus' sacrifice. I am sure that more questions will arise from such brief explanation, so feel free to ask them.

Animal sacrifices were a prophetic symbol of what Jesus would do and not the other way around...

Jesus died to defeat death by resurrection...so resurrection was the goal.
The thing about resurrection is that you must be dead first.

This was illustrated with the two goats on the Day of Atonement...one died one lived.

originally posted by: Leahn
a reply to: Ghost147
To sin is essentially to fall out of God's grace. God is holy, and being holy means He is ultimately untouched and untouchable by sin. When you sin, He cannot extend His grace to you anymore, and thus you will eventually die, as your life can no longer be infinitely extended by God's grace.

since no human ever lived was completely without sins except Jesus,
and since even the human body, desires, thoughts, nature lead us to sin everyday,
hasn't God failed with his creation?
We speak about the whole humanity here...
If he wanted us to be perfect why didn't he made us perfect?
But instead he wants us to be something against our nature.

doesn't make sense

Understanding that this is not fair to all of mankind to be cursed due to Adam's sin, God thought fitting to provide a means for mankind to be lifted from this curse.

He understood that too late for a omniscient God, how many poor souls died cursed for Adam's sin, before Jesus?
Too much pain for an apple...

Again no sense

Remember that I said that the penalty for sin is death? It is, was and will always be, but nowhere I said that the penalty for your sin must be your death. "Only by the spilling of blood can sin be forgiven" says the Bible, but nowhere it says that the blood must be yours.

That sounds satanic, injustice and cruel... are your sure we are still talking about the all loving god?

According to God's plan, Jesus came to Earth, and remained sinless for 33 years, and was killed thereafter. When his blood was spilled, there was no sin of his own to pay. Instead, Jesus presented to his father his blood in payment for Adam's sins. Hence, the Bible calls Jesus "a new Adam". With Adam's sins paid by Jesus, mankind's curse was lifted.

The ''curse was lifted'' but the world didn't change a bit... there was even more ignorance, wars, misery, torture, pain, darkness and suffering after Jesus, than before, and his followers brought the dark ages destroyed science and took the world 2000 years behind. Was that because the curse was lifted?

Anyway the point is that the body of Christ was resurrected, so he wasn't sacrificed at all, ''he returned to his Throne in Heaven at the right side of God''

And another final point,
IF God is omnipotent and omniscient, why couldn't he lift the curse you are talking about without all this drama.
He created the whole universe just by saying ''let there be...'' and he couldn't lift up a curse in a more convenient way?

Doesn't make any sense at all.