Most homosexuality is a choice

originally posted by: amazing

That attraction was already hardwired into my brain. How? Not sure really, but...It was most definitely NOT a choice.

Right.

And I also support the sliding scale. I think there are those on each end that no amount of nurturing will affect or change their hard wired sexual orientation.

Seriously, ya don't think those in countries with death sentences wouldn't change their hard wiring if it was possible?

But, I also think some people fall somewhere in the middle. I think "sexually fluid" is a good term. I think those in the middle could be affected/influenced by their environment.

Maybe those in the middle should have their own "label". Their orientation is neither heterosexual or homosexual.

They are instead defined by their actions.

Influence of genetic factors on human sexual orientation. [Review]
Rodríguez-Larralde A1, Paradisi I.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
Abstract

Human sexual orientation is a complex trait, influenced by several genes, experiential and sociocultural factors. These elements interact and produce a typical pattern of sexual orientation towards the opposite sex. Some exceptions exist, like bisexuality and homosexuality, which seem to be more frequent in males than females.

Traditional methods for the genetic study of behavior multifactorial characteristics consist in detecting the presence of familial aggregation. In order to identify the importance of genetic and environmental factors in this aggregation, the concordance of the trait for monozygotic and dizygotic twins and for adopted sibs, reared together and apart, is compared. These types of studies have shown that familial aggregation is stronger for male than for female homosexuality. Based on the threshold method for multifactorial traits, and varying the frequency of homosexuality in the population between 4 and 10%, heritability estimates between 0.27 and 0.76 have been obtained.

From six studies (2000-2011): if an identical twin has same-sex attraction the chances that the co-twin has it too are only about 11% for men and
14% for women. This means that factors the twins have in common, such as genes and upbringing are mostly not responsible – individual
and idiosyncratic responses to random events and to common factors predominate.

All sexual interests appear to originate in the same part of the brain.

They are not "equal" per se, but most are concerned with any genetic maladjustment that causes someone to have an interest that does not procreate a species.

Of course, most people should realize that the genetic predisposition is only one of several factors.

Human sexual orientation is a complex trait, influenced in part by genes, experiential and sociocultural (including environmental and psychological) factors that play a causal role in the development of homosexuality.

There is also little doubt that certain pathways are established in the neurochemistry of the brain based on our experiences. Your first sexual experiences will trigger responses in your physical body that will become part of your sexual framework in the future.

There is still much to be known about the genetics of human homosexuality.

"If homosexuality is caused by genetics or prenatal conditions and one twin is gay, the co-twin should also be gay. Because they have identical DNA, it ought to be 100%.”

Because it is not 100 percent, genes are not the primary influence for gayness. Anyone who denies that there are non-genetic influences at play must refuse to learn the truth.

We also know that human sexuality and sexual interests may begin in pre-adolescence, but that they are typically fully formed (or ingrained) by late teens, and are a result of the first sexual experiences engaged in.

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Recent findings of nonshared environmental epigenetic causes (genetic expression influenced by the environment) lead again to a conclusion that the genetic influence has possibly been overstated. Nor is deliberate choice of orientation significant; even for adult sexual choice (e.g., heterosexual mate selection), chance predominates. For the development of sexual orientation (ten being the mean age of first attraction), deliberate choice must be a very unusual event.

It has been shown through the evidence of detailed study and analysis that any deep-seated sexual interests, whether acceptable or not, can likely not be changed and even the most deviant interests can never be "cured", however any behavior CAN be controlled.

originally posted by: flammadraco
a reply to: Skyfloating

You need to understand that after several thousand pages on LGBT issues, folk become defensive.

Yes, I can feel the heat from both sides.

People are also used to discussing this issue from a right/wrong perspective. I`m more interested in the fluid or non-fluid nature of homosexuality. Then again...I`m not THAT into the subject either. I`ll post on it again in another 10 years just to check whether the debate has calmed down.

originally posted by: Skyfloating
I believe that most homosexuality is a choice and most were not "born that way". I say this based neither on science nor religion but on personal experience. I find it unsettling that this view is deemed "controversial" and "unscientific". Usually when I share it, the responses are more angry than calm. And when people get all emotional in defending their views, it casts doubt on how valid those views are.

You said that this is nor based on science but wonder why this is not considered "scientific". That's because it's the opinion/experience of one.

My personal experience comes from sexual relationships I've had with two lesbians within the last 20 years. I`m a heterosexual male. Neither of the women claimed to be bisexual, both insisted they were lesbian. When questioned about this, the first one looked puzzled and said "I don't know". And the second one stopped being a lesbian after our relationship. I share this not to elicit jokes or brag, but simply to demonstrate, from personal experiences, that the "I am a homosexual" - self-definition is not quite as fixed and solid as is generally claimed.

OK, now we're up to 3 people. Better but were they lesbians? I'd say they weren't. Probably Bi.

You see, when it comes to transgendered people, the LBGT-movement claims that "they are not born that way" and that ones gender is a fluid concept, a "social construct" perhaps. But when it comes to homosexuals they claim "they are born that way and that it's something fixed and unchanging. You see the contradiction in this? What if homosexuality is not fixed and that most people are not "born that way"?

Here's the largest logic flaw. You are equating sexual identification(what sex you identify as) with sexuality(who you are attracted to). Jenner is aa good example. Dude's a chick now but he still is into women. He changed the one that was an issue but he's still into girls. Thus he went from a straight man to a lesbian.

Granted, in nature there seems to be a small percentage of humans as well as animals who are actually born with a disposition to desire the same sex. But I`d suggest that their number is much smaller than generally stated. More like 0.1% instead of 3%-5% (some have even suggested that up to 25% of the population are born homosexual).

There's a much larger portion of the populous that can't accept people as they are.

The other reason I think that most homosexuality is a choice is because, as humans, we can subdue, change or manipulate our desires. Before marriage my sexual desire was all over the place. After marriage I deliberately subdued it to a point where I felt no desire for other women whatsoever. Prior to marriage I could also increase or decrease sexual and romantic desire for certain types of people at will. I realized that while we do have natural inborn preferences, at least half of it is determined by ones own will, life experiences, upbringing and the information one has been fed from early childhood.

As humans we can subdue many urges. IDK how many times I've choked down the urge to throttle someone. Has nothing to do with sexuality. Has everything to do with avoiding bad consequences.

a reply to: Anonymous007

Homosexuality is neither natural, nor is it normal.

When gays and their supporters answer that their behavior is completely natural and normal, ask them what is the definition of 'natural' and 'normal' they use to convolute their answer to the question.

They might argue that the behavior is predominate in the animal kingdom.

Many animals also commit infanticide. Is that then "natural and normal" and should we therefore allow it?

Just because gayness exists, in and of itself, is not proof of normalcy. The only thing that can be considered "normal" is that it is a behavior that seems to persist, at the margins, over time. This meaning, when all is said and done, is the only potential way the perversion could be considered normal under any definition by these groups.

I do not hate gay people. However I do not agree with their behavior or with the normalization of it that has been occurring since the sexual revolution in the 1970s. I have witnessed first hand the progression from the gays simply "wanting to be accepted" to now wanting to get married and adopt children.

They are now in schools promoting their behavior and lifestyle.

Following their agenda, they fight hard to try to "normalize" their lifestyle in everyone's minds, and they are starting in preschool to reach our vulnerable children.

[A "Day of Silence" in schools - you are not supposed to talk outside of class that day in honor of homosexuality. The Day of Silence is the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network's (GLSEN) annual day of action to protest the bullying and harassment of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) students and their supporters. Students take a day-long vow of silence to symbolically represent the silencing of LGBT students and their supporters.The not-so-subtle message that homosexuals are giving to kids: 'Be open-minded - you can love BOTH sexes - try out a bit of homosexuality like kissing your friend to see how you like it. You may be pleasantly surprised.

If gayness were actually normal, children would not have to be convinced. Pro-gay groups have learned that once children will naturally find the behavior and the underlying idea vulgar and gross, they will not be able to magically adopt a favorable stance.

Therefore, the groups have to get to the children and younger and younger of ages.

Tests for Normalcy

Behaviors that are normal have to be considered in light of a few tests.


Here is the first and most simple test. It is similar to tests of morality and ethical conducts.

Q: What would happen if everyone in the world engaged exclusively in the behavior?

A: The human species would not continue to exist.

You see, rectal intercourse does not produce off spring. There is NO KNOWN benefit or reason for the penis to engage with the anus. Think about this fact: Semen coming into contact with feces does not cause procreation.

Therefore, biologically, the behavior is NOT NORMAL, regardless of its persistence in society.

Here is another test:

To be NORMAL, the behavior must be one that ALL people have a propensity to experience within their life.

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Murderers exist. Are they normal?

Child molesters exist. Are they normal?

Children are born blind and deaf. Is that normal?

The term "normal" is difficult to define. Edmond A Murphy (1972, 1973, 1979) lists seven distinct uses of the word "normal" in medical literature. In one sense, it is used statistically (as in a normal distribution). Normal can also mean "most representative of its class" in which the terms "average," "median," or "modal," might be more accurate. Normal can also mean "that which is most commonly encountered" (such as "Humans normally have two eyes.") In genetics, normal is often used to indicate "wild-type" and "that most suited to survival and reproduction." Clinical medicine often defines normal as "carrying no penalty" which might be translated as "innocuous" or "harmless." This usually refers to function. In sociology and politics, "normal" is often used instead of "conventional," and in aesthetics, "normal can also mean "the most perfect of its class" or "ideal."

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After they are beaten down on the word "natural", gays invariably switch to the use of the word NATURAL in order to deflect their lost cause. They, again, use it without any definition, asserting that their behavior is completely Natural.

There are many things that happen "naturally" like alcoholism or heart disease.

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I am not a hater of gays, but I also do not think gayness should have been "normalized".

The fact they they persist in societies (at under two percent) indicates that they will never go away.

But neither will alcoholism or many other behaviors and mental affects that do not benefit society.

originally posted by: Skyfloating
I believe that most homosexuality is a choice and most were not "born that way".

...

I`m a heterosexual male.

You could have just left it there..

BTW - Knowing a couple sexually confused girls does not qualify as credible evidence that Homosexuality is a choice any more than knowing a bi-racial person qualifies as credible evidence that race is a choice.

And yes...they fell in the middle of the natural spectrum vs. fully homosexual. If they were fully homosexual, they would not have entertained a physical relationship with you. I have known both full lesbians and those in the middle. Spectrum.

Why again are you invested in whether or not strangers identify as gay by nature or not?

Could it be that condemning a "choice" is more morally comfortable than condemning nature or God's creation?

Just curious..

a reply to: Indigo5

Even though I know you will not contemplate the information I have provided and simoly label me a "homophobe", it would do your mental health good to remain open-minded.

You guys again posting this stuff.

Posting stuff from the bible doesn't fly because i'm not a Christian. Ancient middle eastern texts don't concern me. Just like if you were a Muslim posting stuff against homosexuality from ancient Islamic texts.

Now on to the real question again. Did you chose to be heterosexual today? The answer NO. You didn't make that choice. For me, that negates all of your other postings. It's not a choice to be heterosexual or homosexual.

a reply to: Anonymous007

I really don't put faith in any sexual study that is more then 10 years old.

Too much has been learned since then.

a reply to: Anonymous007

I have 2 problems with that. 1- Equating a natural desire, yes it is, with murder is beyond ridiculous. 2- The procreation crap again? You don't know straight people that don't want kids. I know many. Secondly, anal sex isn't just for gay men. That's a part of many straight people sex lives as well. The outrage seems to only come when it's 2 gay men though.

Why does this even matter?

If someone is gay through choice or gay through genetics that person is gay, big deal, they get treated the same as everyone else so is this whole debate not kind of pointless.

a reply to: amazing

I don't see where everyone is bringing religion into the issue.

That is an easy way for your to dismiss alternative viewpoints, isn't it?

Perhaps you can ask the alcoholic if they chose to have a medical/mental condition?

Or ask the blind person when they were asked to be blind...

a reply to: Anonymous007

Such a big man aren't you?? Created your anonymous handle just to respond in this thread.

You're trolling and not man/woman enough to use your main handle to spout such nonsensical rhetoric.

a reply to: intrepid

When asked, while many admit to having experimented with it, VERY few hetero couples admit to regularly engaging in anal sex.

Many admit that it "feels" wrong and is not natural.

a reply to: flammadraco

ACTUALLY --- I created this account a long time ago.

But thanks for playing along.

originally posted by: Anonymous007
a reply to: intrepid

When asked, while many admit to having experimented with it, VERY few hetero couples admit to regularly engaging in anal sex.

Many admit that it "feels" wrong and is not natural.

I'd like to see some stats on that. I mean REAL ones, not from some religious site.