FOX News: Transgender girl drops class after 200 protest for and against her.

a reply to: redhorse

couple things.
it is in the dsm....bottom line
i will not admit i am wrong cause i am not. these are my feelings. it is how i feel about this issue.
wrong for you? looks like it
wrong for me? nope

in the end, i dont care of 'they' come out tomorrow take it out of the dsm and 'prove' it is not an illness.
i will still think they are crazy. it is my opinion

in my opinion, religious people are mentally ill too

i am allowed to think people are crazy or ill or whatever you want to call it for whatever reason i see fit
most people think i am crazy

the difference between me and most people is i really dont care.
not about what you think not about what anyone thinks.
i dont care what the people that are on the same page as me think.

this is how i wind down from work. i read and post about social issues
then i go to bed
then i do it again tomorrow

a reply to: Kojiro

I can't even agree with a lot of other things they place in that book. However, redhorse has more than eloquently explained the reasoning of why it's in there. I cannot really agree with the choice to place it in there, but it is a condition that does require diagnosis and treatment and psychology is the best science available to recognize its presence aside from an outright brain scan. So, ultimately, it had to be placed somewhere.

I think people wish to refrain calling it a "mental disorder" because of the stigma around mental disorders. The layman seems to connect "mental disorder" to psychopathy or schizophrenia, as opposed to anorexia and anxiety disorders.

Personally, I believe anything within the realm of biological possibility is quite natural. We should obviously remove the stigma.

a reply to: Mugly

Out of curiosity, do you think homosexuals are mentally ill?

a reply to: hounddoghowlie

So sad that they realized too late that you cannot change chromosomes. No matter what they "feel" like they are.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: Mugly

Out of curiosity, do you think homosexuals are mentally ill?

nope.
matter of fact, gay rights is the single biggest social issue i advocate for

why does it matter?

a reply to: Mugly

why does it matter?

Because homosexuality was considered a mental illness and was included in the DSM for quite a while.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: Mugly

why does it matter?

Because homosexuality was considered a mental illness and was included in DSM for quite some time.

fair enough.

a reply to: Annee

There's fat kid camps, too... doesn't mean that the existence of such facilities changes the reality. I've said this several times, and I'm not moving off of it: This is being driven by little more than politics and pandering. The biochemical difference in brain function mentioned multiple times in this thread is actually counter-productive to your argument because some (socially acceptable to call them what they are) mental disorders produce them as well.
Schizophrenia produces abnormal brain waves: news.mit.edu...
Schizophrenia and biochemical abnormalities: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

The change away from decades of classification of GID as a mental disorder or disease has been driven by political activists. The disorder had to be normalized as being a biological issue for two reasons:
1. If it's a simple choice, then employers and businesses are under zero laws to accommodate these people in any special manner. If I run into a store and declare "I believe I am a fish! I need water to move through your store, so you shall provide me with a stream!" I get thrown out on my ass. Conversely, those with GID want the ability to declare "I am a woman, so you must allow me to use the women's restroom" without also being shown the door.
2. If it's a mental illness, again it is not protected. Psychiatric conditions, for the most part, aren't covered under ADA rules. A person who rages at the sight of neon lights, for example, cannot demand that those lights be removed from their employment or places they go. They either learn to deal or they change... simple as that. This puts a huge crimp into the GID folks because they are the ones demanding everyone else change to accommodate them, so the mental disorder classification is disadvantageous to their demands for special treatment.

I wish that we could add "Separation of politics and science" to the Constitution and end this horsecrap once and for all. We're seeing WAAAAYYY to often examples of political pressure not only trumping scientific findings, but forcing those scientific findings to divert from pragmatism and logic and apply emotionallity to their decisions. Emotions aren't science. Science should not and cannot give a flip if Lil' Jimmy's feelings are hurt or if the International Wind Farm's profit margins are destroyed... all they should care about is "What do our decades of research tell us?"

What I see happening is the choice to remove GID from the list of mental illness was made before an actual scientific justification was determined to warrant the removal. This is why all of the literature to support the decision is worded with lines like "May be biological" and "Could relate to hormonal imbalances." These throw 'em against the wall in hopes of finding one that tests accurately suppositions they're using replaced past repeatable tests which concluded "GID is a mental disorder..."

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Opinion, belief --- does not trump the knowledge and experience of an actual person who lives it.

Science backing them up is a bonus.

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Opinion, belief --- does not trump the knowledge and experience of an actual person who lives it.

...so GID differs from Clinical Zoanthropy in what way, then? Those poor folks honestly and truly believe they're animals. All they lack is the backing of a powerful and influential antidefamation league to put pressure on politicians, who in turn pressure medical associations to change policies and findings (then worry about any scientific basis for those changes later.)

a reply to: burdman30ott6

LOL werewolves. Perhaps one day as science and technology advance they can actually transform.

a reply to: burdman30ott6
You're not getting it. Emotional testimony supersedes facts and hard science.

You have to feel the magic.
Maybe psychadelics could help.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Opinion, belief --- does not trump the knowledge and experience of an actual person who lives it.

Those poor folks honestly and truly believe they're animals.

We are animal. Human is animal.

We are on the evolution tree just as all the other animals are.

Science says we pass along memory cells. Who really knows for sure which memory cells got past along in an individual.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Opinion, belief --- does not trump the knowledge and experience of an actual person who lives it.

Those poor folks honestly and truly believe they're animals.

We are animal. Human is animal.

We are on the evolution tree just as all the other animals are.

Science says we pass along memory cells. Who really knows for sure which memory cells got past along in an individual.

Well then, let's bring it right back around to a previous question I had. If Lil' Jimmy believes he's a Shetland Sheep Dog, should he be allowed to take a leak in the school playground, wear nothing but a dog collar, and expect kibble be provided at the school cafeteria? After all, equality, right?

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Opinion, belief --- does not trump the knowledge and experience of an actual person who lives it.

Those poor folks honestly and truly believe they're animals.

We are animal. Human is animal.

We are on the evolution tree just as all the other animals are.

Science says we pass along memory cells. Who really knows for sure which memory cells got past along in an individual.

Well then, let's bring it right back around to a previous question I had. If Lil' Jimmy believes he's a Shetland Sheep Dog, should he be allowed to take a leak in the school playground, wear nothing but a dog collar, and expect kibble be provided at the school cafeteria? After all, equality, right?

I am not going to disrespect the Transgenders on ATS with your idiocy.

First of all I want to apologize to the dozen or so transgender people who are out on ATS as well as those who are not out as well as their families and loved ones who may read this thread. I did not think it would become the tire fire it has become at times.

It has not exactly painted the ATS community in the most enlightened, intelligent, well-reasoned light.

I now see that in this community discussion of this topic can become a magnet for bigots, bullies and trolls. I am very familiar with all three types. I am not sure how old they are but their mentality and their hostility reminds me of high school and the luckily few extremely negative interactions I had there.

One thing this thread has provided me with is a broad view of the ATS community and how it tends to skew. It also has continued to confirm that I have done the right thing by not being out as having been born different in my life outside of ATS.

People's opinions of you change and around ATS it seems plenty change for worse. In revealing some very personal details of my childhood I went from being a respected member of this community to one which could have insults thrown at her to dehumanize and de-feminize her.

I went from female to "freak" in some eyes.

And from person to problem or worse: piranha.

I've been lucky to grow up in the part of the country I live in and have had relatively few negative experiences from the point at which I was allowed to live my truth and be myself. My family accepted and loved me once they understood that what I was born with effectively was a birth defect: the physical and neurological structure of a region of my brain which determines gender being that of a girl rather than a boy.

The Girls Scouts accepted me and I was welcomed with no objections.

Schools accepted me with only one set of parents formally objecting and eventually withdrawing their objection after meeting my parents and I and learning more about us.

I now see just how lucky I have been.

I realize that topics such as this one can become quite heated as emotions boil over in negative emotional reactions. I am human and thus, not immune to that as well.

However….

Look to the left and right of this post.

What does it say vertically in large, blue letters?

"DENY IGNORANCE"

Carl Sagan once said famously that sciences is like a candle in the dark. Perhaps topics such as this might be better served with that as a guide?

That will certainly be my approach in responding to this thread from here out. So with that I'll begin with three other quotes from Dr. Sagan:

“Avoidable human misery is more often caused not so much by stupidity as by ignorance, particularly our ignorance about ourselves.”

“But nature is always more subtle, more intricate, more elegant than what we are able to imagine.”

"The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance”

I still believe that ATS, you are better than that.

a reply to: Annee

Opinion, belief --- does not trump the knowledge and experience of an actual person who lives it.

On a side note, you should read the book "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat" by neurologist Oliver Sacks. The guy who mistook his wife for a hat had some rare visual data disorder, and when about to put his hat on, reached for his wife's head instead and attempted to lift it off like her body was a hat rack. He mistook his foot for his shoe and his shoes for his foot and couldn't decide which one to put on the other. There was another guy who didn't believe his leg was his. Great stories and great read. Point being, people's experiences are often delusional.

a reply to: Annee
When in doubt, dodge and deflect!

a reply to: JadeStar

I'd be careful. By definition, your post is bigotry. I don't think anyone is trying to make light of your experience.

a reply to: OpenMindedRealist

Nah. Comparing transgender people with people who believe and act like animals is an insult. Someone in this thread compared transgender people to sociopaths who cut off dogs and cats heads.