FOX News: Transgender girl drops class after 200 protest for and against her.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

So when science finds a way to make that fantasy a reality, we'll also see an accompaniment of expectations for society to accommodate those unique individuals?

I'm sorry, but I'm not on board with the constant changes expected in the masses to accommodate extremely discrete percentages of special needs people. Obviously some expectation of accommodation is warranted and just... but wholesale revisions to the core of our culture and traditions aren't acceptable.

a reply to: Deaf Alien
And there's no way gender dysphoria could possibly be associated with schizophrenia...?

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: babybunnies
She may have not chosen the lifestyle (something still VERY much debatable),

Not in science. That debate was over about 15 years ago.

The only debate is among people ignorant of the science or that fact.

This is ignorance about the nature of science. Science is nothing but questioning, debate, and updating.

Psycho-babble however is another story.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: burdman30ott6

From a purely pragmatic approach (which is what science is all about) why is the zoanthropy comparison not appropriate?

For one it is so rare. How many people do you know of that believe they are animals and act like animals? Besides isn't it a part of schizophrenia?

Yes, it is... it remains classified as such because of the absence of a zoanthropic organization with the political and financial clout required to force an emotions based shift in medical categorization of ailments.

a reply to: Teikiatsu

I have a 5 year old who identifies as (in no particular order) Iron Man, a turtle, and a monster truck.

His identity does not lead me to implant an electromagnet on his chest, or superglue a shell on his back, or bolt his wrists and ankles to wheels. I do however pat him on the head and say "That's nice."

I don't understand why people would make such a comparison. First of all it is illegal to give a sex reassignment surgery to children, rightly so. Secondly, children image themselves to be different kinds of things. That's normal. Those are called phases. Even if they consistently identify themselves as opposite sex, puberty will decide that permanently.

a reply to: OpenMindedRealist

And there's no way gender dysphoria could possibly be associated with schizophrenia...?

By the same logic, you are saying that gay people are psychotic.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: OpenMindedRealist

As someone pointed out, it's pretty rare to come across these people.

Also, wearing cat ears to placate someone in the workplace is a distraction. Wearing unscented deodorant isn't a distraction.

What is expecting a locker room full of teen girls to accommodate the presence of a male with a penis? Placation? Distraction? Not a distraction?

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: DrakeINFERNO

Good job it isn't a mental disorder then isn't it....

Dude grows up in a male body. Dude has all the male equipment. After 13 years in this body, dude suddenly thinks he's not a dude and is in the wrong body.

Sounds like the dude is denying reality.

No but you are. The reality is some girls grow up in male bodies before they can change them. You know... unless they kill themselves.

No, they don't. We all grow up in our own bodies. It is up to us to accept the reality of the body we were born with.

Some people can't accept the reality and think they are supposed to be someone or something else. Some people kill themselves because they can't handle that truth.

a reply to: Teikiatsu
But other kids might bully him if your kid still thinks he's a turtle when he's in high school! Better get that artifical shell implanted pronto if you want him to be happy.

Or you could just be a parent and help the kid figure out that he is a human and not a turtle when the time comes. I don't figure you for the species reassignment type of parent.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

What is expecting a locker room full of teen girls to accommodate the presence of a male with a penis? Placation? Distraction? Not a distraction?

I do understand. I do understand and agree with both sides. GASP!

[edit] BTW Lila herself said that she would never expose herself to others.

a reply to: Deaf Alien
Lila also said:

There’s a lot of ignorance, they are claiming that they’re uncomfortable. I don’t believe for a second that they are. I think this is pure and simple bigotry.

He doesn't seem very considerate of the other students. Can't say I trust that he would make a real effort not to make those girls uncomfortable in the showers.

originally posted by: WhiteHat
What a person thinks it is in his head it doesn't make it so in reality, no matter how hard the person believes it.

That is an opinion, one which is at odds with what is known to be scientifically true.

Sciences has known for as long as I have been alive that what a transgender person thinks in their head is determined by physical differences in structures in their brain which are completely normal for the gender they say they are but not for the body that brain inhabits.

The first study to conclude this was back in 1995, the year I was born. SEE: Study Links Brain to Transsexuality - New York Times, Nov, 1995.

Excerpt:

The discovery is the first detection of a difference in transsexual brains and could at least partly explain why such individuals describe themselves as "women trapped in men's bodies."

The finding may also cast light on the larger issue of sexual identity, of what makes a person feel comfortable -- or tormented -- in the skin of a man or a woman.

Significantly, the region of the hypothalamus does not differ in size between gay and straight men, and so it cannot be said to play a role in male sexual orientation. Other recent studies have focused on identifying minor brain discrepancies between homosexual and heterosexual men, in general reporting that gay brains appeared comparatively feminine. Such findings, which remain deeply contested, have troubled many people for the simple reason that gay men overwhelmingly think of themselves as men, not as abnormal women. But genetic men who undergo sex reassignment often claim that they felt like girls from early childhood on.

More recent studies confirmed the initial work…

In the 1990s, scientists began to compare these sexually dimorphic regions in the brains of transsexuals and the rest of humanity. Early work in this area required the examination of brains postmortem; recent studies use images of the living brain.

The results show that when individuals of Sex A—despite having the chromosomes, gonads and sex hormones of that sex—insist that they're really Sex B, the gender-affected parts of the brain typically more closely resemble what's usually seen with Sex B.

Consider an obscure brain region called the forceps minor (part of the corpus callosum, a mass of fibers that connect the brain's two hemispheres). On average, among nontranssexuals, the forceps minor of males contains parallel nerve fibers of higher density than in females. But the density in female-to-male transsexuals is equivalent to that in typical males.

- Wall Street Journal - Dec 6, 2013

So, again let that sink in: Our brains determine who and what gender we are.

And PLEASE LISTEN: All of you who believe this is a "mental disorder" it is not a mental disorder just a physical difference in our brain which we are born with.

From The American Psychiatric Association:

Access to medical care (both medical and surgical) positively impacts the mental health of transgender and gender variant individuals.

Being transgender or gender variant implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities; however, these individuals often experience discrimination due to a lack of civil rights protections for their gender identity or expression. Transgender and gender variant persons are frequently harassed and discriminated against when seeking housing or applying for jobs or schools, are often victims of violent hate crimes, and face challenges in marriage, adoption, and parenting rights.

Discrimination and lack of equal civil rights is damaging to the mental health of transgender and gender variant individuals. For example, gender-based discrimination and victimization were found to be independently associated with attempted suicide in a population of transgender individuals, 32% of whom had histories of trying to kill themselves, and in the largest survey to date of gender variant and transgender people 41% reported attempting suicide.

The APA joins other organizations, including the American Medical Association and the American Psychological Association, in endorsing strong policy statements deploring the discrimination experienced by gender variant and transgender individuals and calling for laws to protect their civil rights.

– The American Psychiatric Association, 8/16/12, Release No. 12-36


My brain's hypothalamus has a female neuron-count and structure. Its been that way since before birth.

For more information see: Transgender kids show consistent gender identity across measures - Psychological Science - The Journal of the Association for Psychological Science.

Excerpt:

A study with 32 transgender children, ages 5 to 12, indicates that the gender identity of these children is deeply held and is not the result of confusion about gender identity or pretense. The study, led by psychological scientist Kristina Olson of the University of Washington, is one of the first to explore gender identity in transgender children using implicit measures that operate outside conscious awareness and are, therefore, less susceptible to modification than self-report measures.

-Medicalxpress.com - January 2015

For the rest of us what we see is reality; we see a male body - that's it, is a male, in every sense and meaning of the word.

And in her case much of what you see is what happens when there is not the kind of early medical treatment which I received in the form of testosterone blockers at 12 and estrogen at 14. However if she is truly trans her brain structure in the region outlined above would appear say that she was female.

And THIS is why transgender people are not "pretending to be" something else. They already are however their body might develop in a way opposite of their brain's anatomy if nothing is done to prevent that from happening.

I am not pretending to be a girl. I always was and I used to have nightmares that I might go through a male puberty which thankfully did not happen but not everyone is so lucky so I guess I just have some sympathy for Lilla.

The issue is not about transgenders, but those, that are not, Perhaps cloths causes more sexual frustrations than they were designed to avoid. Perhaps we should try remember when nudity was a non issue for us.

a reply to: JadeStar
Are you saying brain abnormalities and mental disorders are mutually exclusive?

Before continuing i'd like to address what someone said about me "looking like a man" because of my face's jawline or something? I have to say I laughed at that because that is the first time anyone ever told me I looked like a man. And until I outed myself on ATS no one ever did either. I mostly just got compliments.

So to that person:



I am 5' 7" and wear a size 7 shoe (red or not). No one ever mistakes me for a guy. As for female faces and chins…






...they vary so idk what they were getting at. And red shoes? Your point? I wore red shoes to go with my red handbag (i was a "goth chick" and wore a lot of combinations of red and black) plus it was at MY BIRTHDAY party. If i wanted to wear a sweatsuit or a tutu and tiara I should be allowed.


Now… continuing...

originally posted by: WhiteHat
Someone born with a healthy body, with full functioning genitalias which correctly define its gender,

But the genitalia do not correctly define gender in certain cases. i.e: intersex and transgender people

In other words sex is in the brain because it is a biological fact that we develop our brains before our sex organs. Everyone born was once a female fetus. Some of those female embryos turn into males in body and brain, some of them remain female in body and brain and in some rare instances the brain does not match the body because the process which causes a differentiation is not 100 percent. Some people are born transgender other people are born intersexed.

but in its heads feels like a different gender, it's exactly that: a person with a problem in its head.

And since that problem is a structural one which is "hard coded' into the brains morphology perhaps you're in favor of brain transplants for trans people?

And until corrected by the means the science and medicine offer today, like transition and surgery and so on, at least pretend to respect the rest of the world who may or may not get "your head" and the social rules we all live by.

Social rules change over time as people learn to accept people not exactly like them.

At one time the social rules stated that the people on my moms side of the family down in Louisiana could not drink out of the same fountain as people on my dads side of the family.

Guess everyone should have just accepted that stupidity right?

So as long as a person have a male body it should definitely use the same facility as the rest of the male bodies

My body was not a male body though. I had curves and breasts and it was determined by my high school that it would have been more disruptive for me to use the boys room than the girls room.

That's the reason I posted that photo. I *thought* people would look and say, "oh, yeah bad idea for her to use a bathroom with 16 year old boys and their raging hormones."

If that boy would had had a birth malformation,

Which if that trans girl if she is trans would have in the form of a brain/body mismatch.

let's say programmed for surgery at a later age, would he be so eager to make a fuss about it, or it would have gladly accepted a separate facility?

But hey, having a penis and pretending to be a female is on the trend right now,

No one who is really trans is pretending to be anything by living as their preferred gender but a lot of people around here want them to pretend to be the one that matches their genitals perhaps to the person's detriment and death due to ignorance.

so why not draw some attention then blame the rest of the world for not seeing the oh, so obvious female side of his penis. Let's get real.

I can tell you that in my case I didn't want ANY attention to my difference. Had I had to use a separate bathroom, say in a teachers lounge or something every time I had to go I'd have drawn attention to my difference.

That possibility was actually brought up by the two parents who initially objected to me using the girls room and my principal showed them the letters from my psychologist and endocrinologist which advised them against that. The psychologist on the grounds that it would continue to draw attention to me difference rather than allow me to develop socially normal.

Kids are mean enough. I didn't need that.

And it turns out my doctors were right because like for 90% of the school my difference didn't matter after the first year. I was not going to ever be miss popularity but I also wasn't pointed and stared at much after that either other than by the occasional bullies or bitches. And even that pretty stopped after I met and started dating my boyfriend.

And yeah, no intend to disrespect but if that girl in that picture is sleeping, I am queen of Sheba....

I was but not soundly. She caught me in the process of turning over to sleep facing the wall. So maybe I was half asleep but I don't remember turning over, just being exhausted and waking up.

edit on 3-9-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)

edit on 3-9-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
a reply to: JadeStar
Are you saying brain abnormalities and mental disorders are mutually exclusive?

Are you saying they are NEVER mutually exclusive?

We can see some physical brain abnormalities in certain mental disorders like schizophrenia. But that's not the kind of brain anomalies we are seeing with transgender males and females.

a reply to: kaylaluv
Abnormalities none the less.

a reply to: JadeStar
You have my sincere sympathy. I know life can be rough and people incredibly cruel.

The boy in the OP is in high school and only now deciding he is transgender. This thread has gone pretty far off the rails but the topic is this kid's choice to drop the class and whether he has a right to demand that others adjust to make him more comfortable.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: WeRpeons

He didn't...

She did.

Gender identity is, as you have rightly pointed out, different to sexuality. However, what you need to understand, is that first, we have no idea what this young ladies sexual preferences are, and that second, they are not nearly relevant.

Do lesbians change in the men's bathroom? Do homosexual males change in the ladies? Do they have their own separate facility? No they do not, because that would not be inclusive or sensible, now would it? The fact that this individual is not being allowed to operate the facilities appropriate to their gender (female), means that by the same reasoning, there should be no lesbians, or homosexuals, or even people who have a deep seated and unspoken question about their sexuality, changing in any facility, for any reason. There is no difference what so ever, save of course for staggering ignorance on the part of many, about the very scientific nature of the situation that transgendered persons find themselves in, and the issue of gender and sexuality as two very separate, and not at all similar or related subjects.

Gender identity is different than gender. They can have their feelings all they want, it does not change what genitals you were born with.

Gender is an observation a doctor makes at birth. It is literally that simple. You are male, you are female, or another option rare enough it needs not be mentioned here but essentially you got a combo platter, in that case call yourself whatever you want i wont argue with you.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MUH FEELS. It is an observation of an actual physical truth, you were born X or Y, it is literally genetics man. I'm so sick of this pc crap, it literally has people arguing against some pretty concrete science because they want to be able to call themselves "civilized" and look down their REALLY LONG noses at people, and the other crowd you're looking at views you as completely bat# insane so .. Come the hell off it, you guys arent winning this one.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Opinion, belief --- does not trump the knowledge and experience of an actual person who lives it.

Those poor folks honestly and truly believe they're animals.

We are animal. Human is animal.

We are on the evolution tree just as all the other animals are.

Science says we pass along memory cells. Who really knows for sure which memory cells got past along in an individual.

Well then, let's bring it right back around to a previous question I had. If Lil' Jimmy believes he's a Shetland Sheep Dog, should he be allowed to take a leak in the school playground, wear nothing but a dog collar, and expect kibble be provided at the school cafeteria? After all, equality, right?

When there's decades of brain dissections and FMRI scans showing people like Lil' Jimmy have brains closer to the average canine brain than the average human brain then it'd be comparable. See that's a thing here, Transgender has been studied for almost a century now. There's strong evidence of biological causation. There's strong evidence against it being a mental illness because attempts to treat it the way mental illness is successfully treated fail.

Even people who were raised by non-human animals (wolves being the famous ones but there's been quite a few different examples) and so when found behaved like those animals and saw themselves as such have been quite successfully helped to see themselves as people. The attempt after the botched circumcision to turn David Reimer into a girl failed. They couldn't manage it even though from a baby David was raised as a girl and not told of the tragedy, still he rejected being told he was a girl. And attempts to treat Transgender people to 'cure' them have a dismal 'success' rate and instead like gay 'cures' appears just to repress them leading to 'side effects' like alcoholism drug dependency and suicide with eventual return to being Trans or Gay in many many cases.