Can Muslims Answer These Conundrums?

a reply to: peter vlar
The fact he harbours hate ignorance and fear of something he doesn't understand shows that he is a good christian. They are the underlying truths that govern a successful religion. Can't really blame him for being what he set out to be.

a reply to: rossacus

A successful member of the flock? Absolutely. A good Christian? I can't give her that one. There's no love thy neighbor or turning the other cheek here. Just rabid fear and sheer hypocrisy. Jesus would be wicked sad. If he were real.

a reply to: peter vlar

Oh my, the old "Islamaphobic" argument.

Shall we post the entire Quran and point out everything in it? The Muslim can believe what they want to believe, that's up to them, but they do not get the privilege of saying their texts are above any criticism whatsoever.

Am I being prejudiced because we are talking about the Bible verses that were misconstrued and in error found in the Quran? What prevents me from pointing out those errors?

No, this is not a matter of simply being another religion, it is about a religion and a religious leader who misquotes the very text it claims to believe in.

My goodness, it's like we are supposed to bend over and let them kick us in the rear, because we turned that other cheek. Right now, Peter Vlar, there are Muslims who had doubts before they ever read this thread, and there are many Muslims right now who are terrified of thinking that way because if any other Muslim knew what they were thinking, it would mean death for them. Do you realize how serious that is?

We are talking about a fear so great that they live in misery because their lives are in danger if they so breath any criticism of Mohammed. And is that what you find acceptable? Or do you only find it acceptable to place the blame on Christians, that only Christians are supposed to walk in this idealized set of mannerism?

Let me tell you, right now, there are Muslims who want to know the truth, but they can't even ask about it, because they are too afraid. So you think this not "turning the other cheek" is not love? Perhaps let it settle in your heart that there are Muslims who are being killed for leaving Islam because they have been denied the truth.

And don't you think perhaps that maybe you should feel a little more compassion for them? There are Muslims right now who secretly read threads like this and do cry wishing they could get out of it. And you feel it more appropriate for people like me to shut up so they can't hear anything. You call it Islamaphobic. No, the true fear is when you are too afraid to speak against it, you have no fear against saying things to Christians, but the Muslims are off limits...tell us what you fear about them?

a reply to: Seede

My answer is that according to the Word there is no such thing as a gnostic Christian. You may claim that title but have only deceived yourself. You are not a Christ follower (Christian) unless you follow the Christ and there is but one Christ and that is the Word of God (Jesus). Any other way or means is futile and cannot be watered down or mixed with other seeds. That is Christianity and you cannot change it with your own set of rules. You threw the rule book away and now try to write your own with nothing but confusion.

Cool.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Cool.

a reply to: WarminIndy


What peter vlar is rightly pointing out is the hypocrisy. I think the real problem here is the problem of religious fundamentalism. I see Many Christians as believing they are moderates, in this I disagree and see no real distinction. I see religious moderation as an elaborate exercise in self-deception, while you seem to think it is a legitimate and intellectually defensible alternative to fundamentalism.

There is no clear line that separates extremist and moderate religion. Scripture itself is the engine of extremism, both the god of the bible and the Qur’an are far from moderate. If you read your bible more accurately you will find more reasons to live like a proper religious lunatic than you will for being a religious moderate. In fear of a hell, to despise non believers, to deny knowledge, to persecute, etc. Anyone fully committed to these books will indeed view that infidels, apostates and heretics are doomed to be slaughtered in god's loving machinery of justce. But, of course, the Christians think they have a better reason to think they’re more right than the Jews, Muslims, or Hindus do.

Peter, Buster and all critics of this thread please take a number and elaborate where Warminlndy is so wrong in what she has posted on her thread. Instead of all the bashing with out constructive input, let's hear it from the choir. Enlighten us with your intelligence on any one matter and then let's discuss that matter in a sensible way. Let's discuss any part of her thread with honest debate without insulting name calling.

(1) - I understand that in your shahada, you must say this "I testify (witness) that there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his messenger" Just to show you that I present no bias, the shahada is here. So everyone that is Muslim or desiring to convert to Islam must say this, because it is one of the five pillars of faith.

(2) - Here is the conundrum, YOU believer or supposed believer must actually witness that first of all you must say there is no god but Allah. OK, that sounds simple enough, just say Allah is the only god. Fair enough, that's a god you have chosen out of all the gods that have ever been in the world. But you don't stop at that, you then must witness that Mohammed is his messenger. RED FLAG moment right here. HOW do you witness that a man who lived and died 1,400 years ago IS? To witness means that you actually have seen or heard Mohammed when he was here. That means that to logically make sense, then YOU have to WITNESS Mohammed IS a messenger. HOW is this even logically possible? Have you seen Mohammed at any time? What color is his eyes? What color is his hair? Does he have wrinkles now? Is he 1,400 years old and still walking around? The problem here is that you have to take a vow that you actually have witnessed Mohammed.

(3) - We could say ok, you believe in Allah, you can give us all the 99 attributes of Allah, you can say that Allah is a god that has never been seen, however, you also must witness that there are no other gods. Can you do that? Have you actually witnessed that there are no other gods? This is a condundrum and cognitive dissonance. Condundrum noun 1. a riddle, the answer to which involves a pun or play on words, as What is black and white and read all over? A newspaper. 2. anything that puzzles. Cognitive dissonance noun 1. (psychol) an uncomfortable mental state resulting from conflicting cognitions; usually resolved by changing some of the cognitions

(4) - I would like from you truthfully, have you ever actually witnessed that there are no other gods? And have you ever witnessed Mohammed actually being a messenger? And this is why there are condundrums in the Quran regarding this... Surat An-Naĥl (The Bee) 16:51 And Allah has said, "Do not take for yourselves two deities. He is but one God, so fear only Me." Do you see how that logically makes no sense? The speaker here is saying Allah said this, but it is supposed to be a direct quote from Allah, so then WHY would Allah then say in direct quote, HE is but one God so fear ME? Condundrum. IF Allah was speaking, why would Allah not say I am one god so fear only me? Ah, but the speaker himself is interjecting himself into Allah, but telling you to fear the speaker because it is a direct quote. Please logically reconcile that, because it sounds like Allah has a dual personality, and the speaker wants you to perceive the speaker as Allah, so fear the speaker, who is Allah, and yet Allah doesn't address himself, only the speaker does as a different person.There are indeed two gods here, if this was supposed to be Allah and a speaker that isn't Allah, and so you aren't supposed to fear Allah, only the speaker. How then do you testify here if this is supposed to be a clear book? A clear book should not have conundrums. And then HOW do you witness to this?

(5) - Surat Ţāhā (Ta-Ha) 20:98 Your god is only Allah , except for whom there is no deity. He has encompassed all things in knowledge." Can you absolutely witness that there are no other deities? No, you can't, because of this... Surat Al-Baqarah 2:62 Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. Therefore, the Sabians who worshiped a completely different god, and there's no obligation here that anyone else should witness Mohammed, they ARE STILL going to heaven. Condundrum with the shahada. Then please explain this condundrum within the same chapter

(6) - Surat Al-Baqarah (The Cow) 2: 143 And thus we have made you a just community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful. YOU are suppose to witness that Mohammed is the messenger, one whom you have never seen nor heard, and yet this so-called messenger is now a witness over you? How is that possible if Allah is the one who knows your heart? Does Mohammed now witness your heart?

(7) - And then, answer this condundrum, if the word HARAM means ha·ram ˈherəm/ adjective adjective: haram forbidden or proscribed by Islamic law. then WHY are you looking at a mosque called al-Masjid al-Haram? The name itself means "The Mosque forbidden by Islam law". It is cognitive dissonance to hold two contradictory ideas at the same time, and in order to alleviate the stress, you have to put aside one cognizance. HOW can you witness to that there are no other deities even though the Quran mentions it, that Mohammed can continue to be a messenger even though he is dead and that you are commanded by Islamic law to perform qibla to a mosque that its very name means it is forbidden by Islamic law?

(8) - Hey, if it makes sense to you, then by all means. But if you really looked at what the Quran says, then how can you witness to any of it? Does it ever cross your mind during qibla that you are actually bowing to a mosque that the Quran itself tells you the name means forbidden? Does it ever cross your mind that the speaker in the Quran interchanges he and him with the human speaker when referring to Allah? Does that ever make you question just exactly what you had to give up logically in order to pursue such illogical statements? Please explain to us how you overcame your cognitive dissonance in order to fit this into your witness.

Out of the half dozen questions that Waminlndy has asked I have read no answers. Just bashing. That is not honest debate by any means. The only sensible debate was by babloyi who in my opinion is very knowledgeable in this matter. Is the purpose of this forum to silence those who do not belong to the club?

a reply to: Seede

Please, point out where any of what I said was incorrect. I stand by everything I have said. She is entirely hypocritical in what she says. She has posted numerous Islamophobic threads with a serious slant towards fear mongering. She is indeed scared S# less of Muslims and has claimed on numerous occasions that they are secretly enacting Sharia Law in the US. She decries the "Muslim Centric Superiority" while promoting the superiority of Christianity. She made claims in the OP that were demolished quickly by those far more knowledgeable regarding the Quran than She or I and refused to address or ignored things like the entirely different rules for grammar in Arabic vs. English while putting an entirely Anglicized spin on said grammar. What she is doing is indeed exactly, the equivalent of calling out all Catholics based on the actions of the Duggars or Westboro Baptist Church because they are all technically all Christians because she is in fact scared out of her wits that Muslims will come to America, enact Sharia Law and lop off her head into a basket. Please tell me how any of this is wrong.

She is indeed spreading ignorance, hatred and fear based on quote mining. She is completely hypocritical in her approach by calling out inconsistencies in the scripture of another faith without being willing to address the multitude of inconsistencies in the NT or the conundrum, to use her wording, of how to reconcile the very opposite messages presented in the Hebrew Text and the Roman/Greek text of the NT. It's as if you guys are in fact worshipping 2 separate gods. One in the OT and another in the NT and then throwing Jesus into the mix and worshipping him as well in defiance of one of the very tenets of your faith as presented in the 10 commandments.

Hey... don't get me wrong. I commend you for coming to the defense of a fellow Christian. You know, since you're all under attack in the US after all( despite being roughly 70% of the population so please explain that math to me while we're at it!). But realistically, you're being just as hypocritical as she is now. Jesus would not be a happy camper with you guys and your decidedly unchristian ways. It makes me sad to see what has become of the faith I grew up in, actively participated in as an altar boy every week for years and almost made my grandmother the happiest Irish Catholic ever when I considered the seminary when I was 14-16 or so until I came to my senses after being given some anthropology books by my biology/microbiology teacher. Even then, I was still on the fence and when I enlisted in the Army my original MOS was going to be a 56M before I switched to 11B so don't use the standard tack of claiming I don't know the first thing about the bible or Christianity because that bird isn't going to fly.

So again, what did I say that was actually incorrect? Because when you say you've read no answers to the half dozen questions, I have to believe that you haven't actually read much of the thread because many people discussed several of her points as they relate to a difference in rules of grammar. So either you didn't read it all or you just refuse to accept or acknowledge the replies.

a reply to: flyingfish

I see no difference between a fundamentalist Christian and a "muslim extremist". They both want the same exact things in the world and care little for who they have to step over to attain those goals and I agree with you that if the line is there, its a very fine one between a moderate and an extremist no matter what name you put to their faith.

a reply to: peter vlar

Indeed, I don't believe religious moderates to be just enablers of fundamentalist intolerance.. They are worse, drowning in hypocrisy. Worse, by this sort of thinking will and has prevented any reasonable and nondenominational spirituality from ever arising in our world.

a reply to: peter vlar

THIS thread is introduced by the title...

IF this thread were about anything else, we can discuss anything else, but the problem is the condundrums. I called no one a religious fanatic, neither did I decry moderates or fundamentals. All I asked was to answer the condundrums.

I only spoke out against those things within the Quran, because that is what the title is about. IF you would like to discuss Christian condundrums then by all means go and create a thread.

I am not afraid of Muslims, I am afraid that we must come to the defense of women who are being treated unequally, by the very same people who claim there is equality for women. If you prefer that little girls not being allowed to learn to read and write, if you prefer the endless cycle of forced marriages and rape of little girls by the very same people who try to deny that fact, then by all means, do so.

Silence can be deadly and denying the reality of a political movement that offers Westerners a whitewashed version of Islam while forcefully enacting the same tribalism. Ask every Muslim who responded on this thread, are they permitted to leave Islam?

If any of them live in any country in the western world, and then choose to move to another country where Islam is the predominant political source of all Islamic jurisprudence, can any of them take with them to Mecca a spouse that is not Muslim? Can ANY of them go to Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan or any other country, are they permitted to say the Quran is wrong in any point?

Ask them.

Silence is not golden. IF the Westerners really listened, if they really looked into it beyond some moderate Muslims who are also under threat of their lives, they are calling it a religion of peace but they never mention the political foundation of Islam.

Ask them if this is all true, they are NOT permitted to take a non-Muslim spouse to Mecca, they are NOT permitted to step into any Islamic country and say the Quran has any error, and they are NOT permitted to tell you about it.

They can worship whatever they want, but they cannot implement the same things you find odious about religion while you don't listen to the politics.

So the condundrums, can you dispute them?

Oh, and Mohammed's idea of complicity was silence. If you are silent of Mohammed's actions, in his world that means you are complicit and agree with him.

a reply to: WarminIndy
I'm sorry, nobody here is saying the Quran is above criticism. What they are saying is that your criticisms of it are stemmed from someone who has not even got a basic understanding of the religion. I've participated in a lot of discussions on ATS, admittedly, a lot with people way more vitriolic than you, the difference being that they actually had meaningful things to say (aside from their vitriol, of course).

It'd be like me starting a thread about how Christianity is sun worship because the Bible calls him the Son of God, and Son sounds like Sun. And then when someone points out how absurd that is, I suddenly switch and talk about how Christianity follows a solar calendar. When someone points out that is not relevant, then I again switch to how Christianity moved the Sabbath to Sunday, etc., and when someone calls me out for bias or having some beef with Christianity, I start ranting about witchburnings and homosexual killings and Kony in Africa, American dominionism and how I'm actually standing up and speaking out for the poor oppressed closeted christian homosexuals.

If your point (it seems to have changed again) is that some people in the Muslim world cannot criticise Islam or Muhamamd or the Quran, make a thread about that. If your point is that women are treated unequally and are prevented from learning to read and write, or forced into marriages and raped make a thread about that.

But believing that you are somehow providing some noble service to those poor downtrodden muslims by creating a thread with completely unrelated arguments, most of which a 10 year old muslim could disprove- that is ridiculous, and yes, is very indicative of islamophobic behaviour.

a reply to: Seede

The thread has been answered multiple times. The OP is commenting on a religion based on a language he/she doesn't understand. Simple. It has now progressed from that. For you to read these religions they are translated. Can't blame a religion for mistranslations or you inability to understand direct meanings for other languages.

a reply to: babloyi

Well put. You need to put someone in these "situations" for them to truly understand how they are perceived.

The one I like for religion is if you go to a doctor unwell and he says if I put this chemical with this chemical in your veins you will be cured. Your reply is how do you jnow that? The doctors well I had a revelation, I believe it will work I know it is true. You would not accept this drug, because there is no proof, you are going according to 1 man's "vocation". Yet this does not apply with religion. Why?

a reply to: babloyi

Babloyi,

As much as I appreciate your input, can I ask you if it really is Islamaphobia when I see things like this



This happened in Oklahoma. This happened in the United States, because the woman would not convert to Islam. So, should we say this man is in ISIS? He was only trying to convert her, and this was reported by the precious CNN.

Yes, I have worked with Muslims, I have seen what those "moderate" Muslims say and do. I told about the man from Sierra Leone who tried to buy my friend's eight year-old daughter, because he wanted a new wife.

I told about the "moderate" Muslim men that I worked with who not only harassed and spit on me, but harassed two young Buddhist men from Laos. Why? We had not said or done anything to them, we merely didn't accept what their efforts to convince us.

Tell me, if it were Christians who did this in the workplace, what would happen on threads like this? Would the Christian then be called insane or full of hate? Yes, you know they would be. You see it now, I am a Christian who offers Quran verses and have shown that the quick defense from Muslims, not against the fact the Quran verses posted showed that it was greatly in error in comparing itself to the Bible, but the fact that a Christian DARE to challenge the oh, so mighty Quran and prophet.

But then it happens every time, the Christian is accused of being ignorant, the Christian is accused of hatred, the Christian is accused of being not Christ-like. And the Christian is accused of mistreating the poor misunderstood "Prophet" when the Christian world has been dealing with Islam for 1,400 years. We've figured out by now exactly what Islam is about.

But here's your problem, there are too many people converting (you call it reverting) to an Islam that didn't even require them to know what the Quran says, and not even what the Hadiths contain, that many of these converts are attracted to a false message of peace and tolerance without being told that the true peace in Islam is that Muslims are only obligated to show peace and tolerance toward other Muslims. I can show the endless verses and Hadiths to prove this.

Yes, there has been a time of peace with Christians and Jews....as long as those Christians and Jews were dhimmis. Is there peace right now for Zoroastrians? Are they dhimmis or not? Were they dhimmis in Andalusia?

Those Jews and Christians in Jerusalem at the time of the Islamic invasion that created the Palestinians, were they dhimmis or not? YES, all of them were. So now, you have the Palestinian problem, they are cousins of the very Jews and Christians that were in Jerusalem that Palestinians deny as ever having been there, and yet, they were there at the Islamic invasion that forced Arab language and culture onto them.

This is an historical fact that is conveniently overlooked because it is not taught, what they then say is "the Crusades...the Crusades..!!!!!". What the heck was the Islamic invasion of Jerusalem BUT a crusade? What has been 1,400 years of Islamic history of invasions except crusades in the name of Mohammed?

What else was it but a crusade to march to Paris to be turned out by Charles Martel? What else was it but a crusade to control Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and many other countries that were converted by the sword?

But no, this Christian is ignorant of Islam, even though this Christian has been exposed to Muslims who spout curses at Christians who refused to convert to Islam. And then saying you have the same God as I do. If we have the same God, then Mohammed was a Christian. And if you heap hatred at the door of Christianity saying we hate Muslims, then Mohammed hated under the guise of a Christian God. Ironic, isn't it?

IF we have the same God, then EVERY Muslim is a Christian, who denies the deity of the very Christ they claim to believe in. Go ahead, say you believe in Isa of Maryam. If you believe in Isa of Maryam...that makes you a Christian. EVERY Muslim is Christan by that. Therefore, you cannot say Islam is a different religion, that Jesus was a Muslim, you have to then admit that the ONLY definition that applies to Muslim is merely one that is submitted to God, and if you try to say it is a different religion, then Islam has to have a different God and Isa.

But alas, it doesn't claim a different one, but the same, therefore, Islam must be Christian and as such open to the same criticism of perverting the Gospels to fit into the world view of one man who diverted from the true faith into a faith toward himself.

Now, do we have the same God? Do we have the same Isa? If you say yes, then Islam is a perverted version of Christianity with a doctrine so heretical that Christians address on a daily basis with each other. That makes Islam no longer off limits because you are a Christian sect.

Question again, do we have the same God and Isa?

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: peter vlar

THIS thread is introduced by the title...

IF this thread were about anything else, we can discuss anything else, but the problem is the condundrums. I called no one a religious fanatic, neither did I decry moderates or fundamentals. All I asked was to answer the condundrums.

then why the ever shifting goal posts? when presented with evidence that your initial premise was wrong, you shifted the line in the sand again and again. Everyone else is required to stay within the boundaries of your mission statement except you?

I only spoke out against those things within the Quran, because that is what the title is about. IF you would like to discuss Christian condundrums then by all means go and create a thread.

No point in beating a dead horse and creating a Christian bashing thread. there are plenty of them up already. the bottom line is that you feel the need to call others out for a faith you don't actually know a lot about yet your own is unassailable, unimpeachable and above reproach somehow. That is the very hypocrisy being brought up. or as the kids say on the playground... 'you can dish it out but you can't take it in'.

I am not afraid of Muslims, I am afraid that we must come to the defense of women who are being treated unequally, by the very same people who claim there is equality for women. If you prefer that little girls not being allowed to learn to read and write, if you prefer the endless cycle of forced marriages and rape of little girls by the very same people who try to deny that fact, then by all means, do so.

you start out by claiming not to be afraid and then shift to fear mongering tactics. You live in a comfortable Midwest state where none of what you describe is an issue. let's be honest about that. You are against the policies of other sovereign nations which at the end of the day, is the bane of US foreign policy...sticking our noses where they don't belong. Learn from the mistakes of the past century because our bull s# interventionist policies have given us the Middle East we see today. You don't like Iran? Blame Eisenhower and the CIA for overthrowing the first democratically elected government in the history of the ME. You don't like Saudi Arabia? Blame decades of US policies where we turn a blind eye to their atrocities while condemning other sovereign nations for doing the same things, often to a lesser degree. Why? Because they didn't have as much oil. You don't like Al Quaeda, blame Reagan, Bush 1 and the CIA, again. ISIS/ISIL? a direct result of the destabilization of the entire region the last 14 years. WE are as much to blame, if not more, for the state of the world you so loathe. Who we attack and who we turn a blind eye towards is our own damned fault. Arab Spring? Syria? Same answer as above.

Silence can be deadly and denying the reality of a political movement that offers Westerners a whitewashed version of Islam while forcefully enacting the same tribalism. Ask every Muslim who responded on this thread, are they permitted to leave Islam?

I don't need to ask them. I have Muslim friends, I've served proudly in the Army with Muslims. If they WANT to leave, they can. Just like you can leave Christianity but do not.

If any of them live in any country in the western world, and then choose to move to another country where Islam is the predominant political source of all Islamic jurisprudence, can any of them take with them to Mecca a spouse that is not Muslim? Can ANY of them go to Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan or any other country, are they permitted to say the Quran is wrong in any point?

So clearly, this is not about your made up conundrum despite your epithets to the contrary. Are you actually reading what youre writing? What business is it of the citizens of the US what other sovereign nations do? You are trying to impose YOUR morals on others. They don't want them. Accept that and move on.

Ask them.

why don't you ask them instead of quote mining and creating something out of nothing because you refuse to admit your fear and level of despisement for something you can't fathom?

Silence is not golden. IF the Westerners really listened, if they really looked into it beyond some moderate Muslims who are also under threat of their lives, they are calling it a religion of peace but they never mention the political foundation of Islam.

You really need to separate the minority from the majority. You are just as brainwashed in your own way as those you point an accusatory finger at.

Ask them if this is all true, they are NOT permitted to take a non-Muslim spouse to Mecca, they are NOT permitted to step into any Islamic country and say the Quran has any error, and they are NOT permitted to tell you about it.

please provide citations for the above accusations.

They can worship whatever they want, but they cannot implement the same things you find odious about religion while you don't listen to the politics.

But they can. Those countries hold no sway over me. If you dislike what is going on, be a good little Christian warrior, move there and start a movement. It's good to be a martyr for Christ after all. It's a one way ticket to heaven according to the good book.

So the condundrums, can you dispute them?

I've already said I do and why.

Oh, and Mohammed's idea of complicity was silence. If you are silent of Mohammed's actions, in his world that means you are complicit and agree with him.

But that doesn't apply to you or Christians somehow? Christians who have imposed their rule over the Western world for nearly 1700 years, also through rule of force. Hypocrisy knowns no bounds. Just ask the German and Scandanavian "pagans", The Cathars of France, The Muslims of the Levant and on and on. How are those blinders fitting today?

a reply to: peter vlar

And all that excuses Muslims how?

By the way, I have family members who are not Christian, so you are going to have to explain to me why they don't use the same statements you have just applied.

Do they have the same God and Isa?

If they do, then that's another condundrum.

From Former Muslims United, Fatwas on apostacy (leaving Islam)

Dr. Yusuf al-Qaradawi, head of the European Council for Fatwa and Research (ECFR) and president of the International Union for Muslim Scholars

Oh, this guy is head of the EUROPEAN Council....Let's see what the guy in Europe says..

Apostasy from Islam after willingly accepting it and subsequently declaring an open revolt against it in such a manner which threatens the solidarity of the Muslim community is a crime punishable by death. No one is compelled to accept Islam, but at the same time no one is permitted to play tricks with it, as some Jews did during the Prophet’s time:

Another guy from the same site.

Abul Ala Mawdudi, founder of Jamaat-e-Islami party

he says

n my opinion its solution – and God conforms us to rectitude – is to notify the Muslim population in the area where an Islamic revolution occurs that people who in belief and practice have defected from Islam and wish to remain as defectors should formally disclose their non-Muslim identity and leave our social order within a year from the date of the notification. After this period all those who are born of Muslim lineage will be considered to be Muslim, they will be subject to all Islamic laws, they will be compelled to perform the religious duties and obligations, and then whoever steps outside the fold of Islam will be executed. Following this announcement utmost effort should be made to save as many sons and daughters born of Muslims as possible from the lap of kufr. Then whoever cannot be saved by any means should be cut off and cast away, sadly but firmly, from his society forever. After this act of purification a new life for Islamic society may begin with only those Muslims who are dedicated to Islam…

How do YOU combat this? By accusing Christians of hatred?

Your friends could only leave Islam while in a comfortable State that gives them freedom of choice. And these friends told you they were free to leave? It's so easy to say that from your position as well, but you weren't Muslim and neither did you belong to the Muslim community. What you have done is repress the true information by excusing their behavior.

Nonie Darwish (which now some Muslims will call her an agent of Zionism) WAS a Muslim, grew up AS a Muslim and lived AS a Muslim in the Muslim community of Egypt. And if you won't hear me because you met some Muslims told you something that you wanted to hear, she says this

By Nonie Darwish If you convert you die. Few Americans know what is going on inside the Muslim world and what it portends for them. The fact is that, most Americans are subjected to much of the same misinformation with regard to Islam that I grew up with inside the Muslim world. Thus Americans are in the dark attempting to formulate their strategy to defend themselves against the threat of terror, domestic jihad and Sharia. While they get ridiculed for being ‘Islamophobes’, the Muslim world itself is undergoing a huge and painful awakening.

Try to rebut me all you like, but would you say the experts in Islam are wrong? Are they allowed to leave or not?

And would you hide in your home a former Muslim trying to escape Islam? What would you do if a person said to you "Hide me, my life is in danger". Would they also be Islamaphobic and full of hate?

Ask yourself, what would you do.

Now ask these Muslims on this thread what the penalty would be for you hiding an apostate Muslim. Sorry, but it is hitting American soil. Deal with the truth.

And for a little musical interlude...Saudi Arabian Death Metal band Al Namrood who can't even say their names in Saudi Arabia because they would be killed.



Why is it that THESE Muslims are telling me something different than you or your starring buddies on here? What's going on here? People leaving Islam by the millions while some converts are joining in Europe and America...something isn't adding up.

Do you know why? They couldn't reconcile the conundrums.

You say one thing, these former Muslims are saying something else. You weren't Muslim, these people were. So whose word am I supposed to believe? Theirs, plain and simple. Western man, comfortable in your home as well, those Muslims were yanking your leg.

a reply to: rossacus

The one I like for religion is if you go to a doctor unwell and he says if I put this chemical with this chemical in your veins you will be cured. Your reply is how do you jnow that? The doctors well I had a revelation, I believe it will work I know it is true. You would not accept this drug, because there is no proof, you are going according to 1 man's "vocation". Yet this does not apply with religion. Why?

You hit a home run with that one. I see exactly what you postulate every week on my TV. I call them recalls. The medical recalls after most are dead or growing breasts are every day a lawyers delight. I don't know about your doctor but everyone that I have known (and that is quite a few) do not sit you down and tell you all the science of what they shot you with. In fact most people do not even know what is in a cold medicine and what effect it has on the guy that has the cold.

Just the other day I saw on TV where a recall of a certain drug that had grown breasts on men. Are you telling me that the brilliant doctor sat the guy down and told him that this just might make you into half a female? Come on rossacus you can do better than that. Nice try but really ------

a reply to: peter vlar

So again, what did I say that was actually incorrect? Because when you say you've read no answers to the half dozen questions, I have to believe that you haven't actually read much of the thread because many people discussed several of her points as they relate to a difference in rules of grammar. So either you didn't read it all or you just refuse to accept or acknowledge the replies.

Peter you are a cut above most ATS posters and you have, in my understanding, much knowledge and ability to show that knowledge but for the life of me I do not believe you understand Christianity as true Christianity was at one time. It has nothing to do with intelligence and it is unfair of you to think that I hold that premise. Of course there are many brilliant people in all religions and to say that one is greater in intelligence than another is not true at all.

Most all people who are critics of Christianity will not understand that to discuss Christianity one must declare the denomination of the sect of which it is to be discussed. Most all named Christian sects of today are not Christians at all.. My opinion is that JW’s are not Christians, CLDS’s are not Christians, Roman and Greek Orthodox are not true Christians and most all organized denominations who bear the name tags of Christianity are not Christians by the measure of the first Synagogue of Christians under Christ Jesus and His Apostles. The closest groups are the Messianic Jews and they number about 350,000 world wide. Now remember that this is only my opinion in the theological realm. This has nothing to do with intelligence of people. There are brilliant people in all religions.

When one says the word Christian it is almost always with their understanding that they are referencing all of these many divisions of religions as Christians and that is the problem. When I declare to anyone that I am a Christian I should make it clear that I am of the Synagogue of James the Just and the twelve Apostles of Christ Jesus. I do have prejudices and I believe all people have the same otherwise we would not have all of these divisions. When people attack me then we are discussing the first Christian Church of the first century under James the brother of Christ Jesus and not this conglomerate that is called Christians today. In fact I have a hard time accepting any organized religions today.

Now I believe what is fair for one is fair for all. When we discuss Islam we are discussing one accepted source called Muhammad and one literature called their Koran or Quran. Here on ATS I constantly read insulting posts smearing the Talmud as well as Torah and I rarely see any one as a champion of Torah. I constantly read that this God of the OT was a barbaric murderer and not the same God as the NT. I have read post after post declaring that this Abraham who would kill his own child is a nut and his God is just as nuts. Post after post is loaded with glaring insults to the God of Moses and then when a response does come from a Christian it is the same old “PROVE IT” or “IT DOESN”T MEAN THAT” or other such rhetoric. When all else fails then comes the attack on the messenger.

Then when Warminlndy makes a thread with direct questions and invites conversations I see the same old pattern of attack her character. Not discussing the thread but simply attack the character. Regardless of character it should be attack with logical informative conversation. That will educate our minds and perhaps clear misunderstandings. Show Warminlndy and me through the posted material where we are mistaken. I have honestly read her thread well over half dozen times and see nothing that depicts her as being out of reason.

The challenge is still out there. Put the club mentality aside and lets discuss with intelligence and when addressing Christianity address the denomination which claims Christianity and not the mess that exists today.

a reply to: Seede

It is a simple point. You do not accept stuff on hope, it's clearly not a literal point. If you were to ask the doctor what it is or what happens they will happily explain it to you in terms you will understand. They will tell you the truth with evidence and clinical trials if you questioned it. The fact uve come to that conclusion just means you have never asked your doctor. So all I say with religion is when you asked you doctor, did he have a revelation or substance. I can't comprehend how you are taking that statement literally. Nice try, I have no idea what you mean. Simple analogy.