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Can Muslims Answer These Conundrums?

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posted on Jun, 7 2015 @ 02:45 PM
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a reply to: WarminIndy

Utter nonsense, I prayed to Jesus half my life and I experienced that God is one and Jesus is not in that equation.. Culture can delude personal experience which is also why I have great respect for Buddhism and Taoism which teach one to be careful in deluding themselves as all spiritual experiences still get filtered through culture and mind, until you grow up and reach a certain level. I had way more powerful experience through Islamic practices than I ever had as a sincere Christian, BUT to each their own... That's part of the whole plurality understanding that we are all different (as the Qur'an says) thing... The Christians I deeply respect also respect other religions. At the very least they would say "I don't know, this is beyond my own experience so I can't judge you." Like wise, I don't judge them even if we disagree theologically.

Also, Allah is all about Love, read Sufis like RUMI .. It's about union.. It's saying YOU can feel like Christ... You can feel through LOVE union with God because he is closer to you than your jugular vein. Yet he is utterly incomparable at the same time. The writings on mystic LOVE in ISLAM could fill whole huge libraries. I am done with your bigoted, uneducated, self centered, close minded, naive neanderthal comments. You know absolutely nothing about Islam and talk from complete ignorance. It would be like me arguing about Christianity and not knowing even the names of people like Luther, Calvin, Acquinas etc... Towering figures in Islamic thought who developed towering in depth philosophies you remain completely ignorant of. There is no cure for ignorance or stupidity. I'd hate to be associated with you by any dogma.
edit on 7-6-2015 by AudioOne because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 7 2015 @ 05:18 PM
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a reply to: WarminIndy

Cognitive Dissonance is all I read.

What are your feelings now that you realize Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the SAME God...?
edit on 7-6-2015 by Involutionist because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 7 2015 @ 06:48 PM
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a reply to: WarminIndy

I never indicated that nothing in Islam was to be taken literally. I specifically referred to the affirmation of faith in my reply.



posted on Jun, 7 2015 @ 07:01 PM
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originally posted by: Involutionist
a reply to: WarminIndy

Cognitive Dissonance is all I read.

What are your feelings now that you realize Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the SAME God...?


Nope, still not the same god.

Allah was an IDOL in the ka'aba long before Mohammed. This is something you need to understand because they aren't telling the truth to naive people who they permit to convert only after repeating the shahada once. In the hearts of many Muslims they truly do not believe and yet the must continue to pretend to love Islam or be killed.

Allah deceives people who are not Muslim...I want you to see this, Allah deceives.


4:142Indeed, the hypocrites [think to] deceive Allah , but He is deceiving them. And when they stand for prayer, they stand lazily, showing [themselves to] the people and not remembering Allah except a little,


Compare this with


Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;


If it is the same god, then it has multiple personalities.

If the word makr is used to say the word plan or trick, then why did Mohammed ask Allah not to devise against him if he was the messenger of Allah?

Or does this sound like the same god?

2:145 And if you brought to those who were given the Scripture every sign, they would not follow your qiblah. Nor will you be a follower of their qiblah. Nor would they be followers of one another's qiblah. So if you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, indeed, you would then be among the wrongdoers.


Will you please tell us, what is the qiblah for Christians?



posted on Jun, 7 2015 @ 07:02 PM
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originally posted by: ProfessorChaos
a reply to: WarminIndy

I never indicated that nothing in Islam was to be taken literally. I specifically referred to the affirmation of faith in my reply.


How much of the Quran should be taken literally?

If your shahada is taken allegorically, which part is allegorical? Allah or that Mohammed is the messenger?

Is the Quran allegorical or not?



posted on Jun, 7 2015 @ 07:05 PM
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originally posted by: babloyi
a reply to: WarminIndy
Thor, Odin and Frigg are also 3 gods, what is your point? Are every 3 divine beings that you can name together in a sentence a triad? You use your scripture to claim that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit make up a trinity. A Unitarian christian would use the scripture to disagree- they might believe in those 3 entities, but automatically believing in something that sums to 3 doesn't make it a trinity. I never claimed that Zoroastrianism as we know it today is a representation of God's message. I said it is very likely it started out like that.

Odd that out of all the things that I mentioned, you chose to address that.


Aren't you the one who said Ahura Mazda was the favorite name?

If that was someone else, then I apologize.

The point is this, if a Muslim invokes the name of a God they perceive as monotheistic, then doesn't mention the other gods associated, then that's disingenuous.



posted on Jun, 7 2015 @ 07:30 PM
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a reply to: AudioOne


He doesn't need additional education, he simply has a different view from your Christ-centric Jesus only way opinion. I could say you need additional education in seeing his opinion, which is that all the Abrahamic faiths are valid and become exclusive through ego and distortions.

My opinions do not really matter. The statement was made not as an opinion but as theological fact and that theological premise is absolutely wrong according to its theological source which are the Hebrew and Greek bibles. The God of Islam is not the God of true Christianity and the God of rabbinic Judaism is not the God of true Christianity. You also need additional education in that matter.

The Christian God does not accept any that do not accept His Begotten Son. I do not make the rules or write the rule book. Having a different view is not an excuse to the Christian God and He does not buy into your political correctness game. The Word of God will judge all men and not Abraham or Muhammad can influence His judgments.



Some of us don't accept the gospels as written so don't go quoting scripture at me like it will make a difference!


I did not and will not quote any scriptures of the bible to you at your request. If you prefer to remain as you are then that is your prerogative but also keep in mind that this is an open religious forum. That is till the Muslims gets our heads.



Thank God that there are Christians who support the idea that God can save without people's belief in Jesus,

You have shown your lack of education in Christianity once again. A Christian cannot disbelieve in the name of Jesus and a Christian cannot support the idea that God will save without the belief in the name of Jesus. You are in dire need of education in this matter.



posted on Jun, 7 2015 @ 07:59 PM
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a reply to: Involutionist


Oh, and one more thing: I was raised as a Gnostic Christian. I don't believe in labels or religious dogmas of any religion like many do. Frankly, if I were to choose a label, I would choose: Spiritual Free Thinker. When one immerses themselves in the esoteric teachings of any religion (as I have with Kabbalah, Sufism, Gnosticism, Buddhism, Vedic,) they quickly discover a common thread....a silver lining.

My answer is that according to the Word there is no such thing as a gnostic Christian. You may claim that title but have only deceived yourself. You are not a Christ follower (Christian) unless you follow the Christ and there is but one Christ and that is the Word of God (Jesus). Any other way or means is futile and cannot be watered down or mixed with other seeds. That is Christianity and you cannot change it with your own set of rules. You threw the rule book away and now try to write your own with nothing but confusion.



posted on Jun, 7 2015 @ 08:04 PM
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a reply to: Seede

The only Begotten of the Father.

Christianity has believed this since the beginning of Christianity. To which of the angels has God said "thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee?" There was no angel that could ever say that but only one begotten Son that can, eternally co-existent with the Father and the Holy Spirit, essence of very essence.

Christ, the very express image of the Father.

This is what Mohammed should have known if he knew Christians or his uncle was one. That is what makes me suspicious is that his uncle, who should have known that in Christianity we do not believe and never have believed that the sign of a prophet is a mole on his shoulder blade.

And the fact that the Quran does not mention the word patriarchs for religious Christians, neither does it use the word patriarchs for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob makes me even more suspicious.

By the time of Mohammed, the word patriarch was used in the Christian Bible. It is still used today. That is why I question exactly what Christians and Jews influenced Mohammed. A lot of the stories he seemed to use was taken from sources outside of the Bible or even Talmud.

But here he seems to have mixed up Matthew 24 and the Book of Revelation...and this is very telling...from Hadith Muslim


Muslim :: Book 41 : Hadith 6931 Hudhaifa b. Usaid Ghifari reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to us all of a sudden as we were (busy in a discussion). He said: What do you discuss about? They (the Companions) said. We are discussing about the Last Hour. Thereupon he said: It will not cone until you see ten signs before and (in this connection) he made a mention of the smoke, Dajjal, the beast, the rising of the sun from the west, the descent of Jesus son of Mary (Allah be pleased with him), the Gog and Magog, and land-slidings in three places, one in the east, one in the west and one in Arabia at the end of which fire would burn forth from the Yemen, and would drive people to the place of their assembly.


Even then he was mixed up, ok, so there is going to be smoke, the Anti-Christ, the beast, the sun rising from the WEST???, THE Gog and Magog, earthquakes and fire from Yemen?

He's got two books in confusion so he must have heard this read in a church or perhaps read about it. But where in the Bible does it say there will be a fire from Yemen? Gog and Magog....those are two nations, not two objects. THE Gog and Magog, what?

I'm going out on a limb here, but that sounds like something he might have heard in a church, so Mohammed went to church. He really ripped that off from the Bible and didn't even get it right, he mixed the books up and then it makes me wonder why he would not have said "And Jesus said, these things shall happen". ALL Christians would have offered the book, the chapter and the verse and then would have said who said it.

And this Hadith has Abraham living AFTER Joseph. Correct me if I am wrong here, but Mohammed is relating a story about Abraham..so Abraham was speaking with Allah...


Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 55 :: Hadith 591 Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "We are more liable to be in doubt than Abraham when he said, 'My Lord! Show me how You give life to the dead." . He (i.e. Allah) slid: 'Don't you believe then?' He (i.e. Abraham) said: "Yes, but (I ask) in order to be stronger in Faith." (2.260) And may Allah send His Mercy on Lot! He wished to have a powerful support. If I were to stay in prison for such a long time as Joseph did I would have accepted the offer (of freedom without insisting on having my guiltless less declared)."


The way this is translated, it has Abraham living after Joseph. And Abraham was in prison? And Abraham was offered freedom, like Joseph was?

He certainly didn't get this from Torah or the Bible, because he completely got Abraham and Joseph confused. He was reading some strange books, because not one single rabbi or Jewish scholar would have ever said Abraham came after Joseph.



posted on Jun, 7 2015 @ 08:04 PM
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originally posted by: WarminIndy
Allah was an IDOL in the ka'aba long before Mohammed. This is something you need to understand because they aren't telling the truth to naive people who they permit to convert only after repeating the shahada once.

yes, only you know the truth, and have uncovered it, and everyone else is lying. OH NO, YOU'VE FIGURED IT OUT, NOW WHAT?
Yeah, no. There was never any idol of Allah in the Ka'aba. I'm sorry, you're mistaken yet again (and yet choose to repeat the lie rather than face the fact that it is nonsense).


originally posted by: WarminIndy

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;


If it is the same god, then it has multiple personalities.

Talk about cognitive dissonance indeed!

Is this the same God that collaborated with Samuel to deceive Saul in 1 Samuel 16? Or how God puts deceiving spirits into people's mouths so that they can lie for the benefit of God (1 Kings 22), or when God said he'd deceive prophets in Ezekiel 14.
Certainly, the Judeo-Christian God never lies or commands his followers to lie!



originally posted by: WarminIndy
Aren't you the one who said Ahura Mazda was the favorite name?

If that was someone else, then I apologize.

The point is this, if a Muslim invokes the name of a God they perceive as monotheistic, then doesn't mention the other gods associated, then that's disingenuous.

Since I have no idea what you're talking about, yes, it must've been someone else.
"Name of a God"? You're remarkably polytheistic for a Christian. Do you believe that the Persians, the Chinese, the Eskimos, the Indians, never new a single thing about the One True God up until one of Jesus's disciples came and told them? That's just silly.
It really seems you have very little understanding of how religious pantheons work. I suspect you didn't read the wikipedia link I provided. I encourage you to go read it again.
If a thousand years from now we have a group of people who call themselves "Christians" who believe in the AM THAT I AM God YHWH, and his child god Jesus, and his wife god Holy Ghost, and his created undergods Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, etc., does that somehow negate that God is God and YHWH is God?

edit on 7-6-2015 by babloyi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 7 2015 @ 08:07 PM
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a reply to: babloyi

Can you answer my simple question from my post...

What is the qiblah for Christians?



posted on Jun, 7 2015 @ 11:55 PM
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a reply to: WarminIndy

Are you blind? I already answered this question on the previous page by typing out the verbatim commentary from a Qur'an on the very verse that your mentioning for this question. In fact, you are infuriating as about 90% of what you have asked has already been answered in these posts and you keep going about pretending that you haven't been corrected on almost every point, blindly stumbling forward... deaf dumb blind.

Here, so you don't have to click the back button let me repost my entire answer to that question from the previous page for you, so you can ignore it and write some more stupidity about something else.

"From Muhammad Asad's translation and commentary on this verse (2-148) (PS You should really consult commentaries like his)

"Almost all of the classical commentators, from the Companions of the Prophet downwards, interpret this as a reference to the various religious commentaries and their different modes of "turning towards God" in worship. Ibn Kathir, in his commentary on this verse, stresses its inner resemblance to the phrase occurring in 5:48: "unto every one of you have We appointed a [different] law and way of life." The statement that "every community faces a direction of its own" in its endeavor to express its submission to God implies, firstly, that at various times and in various circumstances man's desire to approach God in prayer has taken different forms . . . . secondly, that the direction of prayer - however important its symbolic significance may be - does not represent the essence of faith as such: for as the Qur'an says, "true piety does not consist in turning your faces towards the east or the west" (2 : 177), and, "God's is the east and west" (2 : 115 and 142). Consequently, the revelation which established the Ka'bah as the qiblah of the Muslims should not be a matter of contention for people of other faiths."

And I would add, it is this belief (stated in the Qur'an as "we made you all different that you may know one another") that caused liberal Muslims to be accepting of many different religions when Christianity eradicated every strand of different faiths from Europe (and tried with the Jews, saved only by being related through the OT). In Muslim lands you still found Yazidis, followers of Mani, Zoroastrians... Where in Europe do you find these ancient cults passes down through the last 2,000 years?

Also, you need to learn some history. The concept of a nation was created by Europeans and exported through colonialism. By knowing things like that you would know that while a translator may use the word Nation in translating an ancient text, this is a problematic translation as the concept of Nation wasn't around back then." End Quote
edit on 7-6-2015 by AudioOne because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 8 2015 @ 12:38 AM
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a reply to: AudioOne

The qiblah for Christians is what?

Please tell us from Christian sources what our qiblah is.

There is a problem here, if you say the Quran says that Christians have a qiblah, you don't know Christianity enough to make your claim and neither does the Quran know enough about Christianity.

If you say that the Jews have a qiblah, then you are going to have to point to where they have one, other than tradition. But here is what your Quran says about Moses

Surat Yūnus 10:87 And We inspired to Moses and his brother, "Settle your people in Egypt in houses and make your houses [facing the] qiblah and establish prayer and give good tidings to the believers."


Not exactly true.

Settle in houses? I am sure it meant tents, and I am sure that the Quran meant the Tabernacle in the wilderness, and they all were not facing the Tabernacle. In fact, three faced the east, three faced the north, three faced the south and three faced the west. The Tabernacle was in the middle, and that was before they were dispersed to territories. Even then, the temple nor Jerusalem existed.

You've got a problem here. The direction in which one is to pray,

qib·lah ˈkiblə/ noun noun: qiblah; noun: kiblah; noun: qibla; noun: kibla; plural noun: kiblas the direction of the Kaaba (the sacred building at Mecca), to which Muslims turn at prayer.


IF you say that qiblah is a geolocation in which one should turn, because you are supposed to turn to the ka'aba, but then you say that a scholar then makes another declaration apart from fatwa on qiblah, from the Quran, then it is a big problem.

What then is the geolocation that Christians are to turn? Can you tell me from Christian sources?

I don't care what direction you pray in, that's your business, but your Quran said that Jews and Christians have a qiblah also, so what is it?

Another verse that you have to grapple in explaining is this...

Surat Al-Baqarah (The Cow) 2:142 The foolish among the people will say, "What has turned them away from their qiblah, which they used to face?" Say, "To Allah belongs the east and the west. He guides whom He wills to a straight path."


In WHICH direction has the Christian EVER turned in prayer as an obligation, fatwa or law?

Oh, and the word nation was translated in your Quran. I posted that verse from the Quran, from nowhere else. Are you having problems with your translators?
edit on 6/8/2015 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 8 2015 @ 01:02 AM
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a reply to: WarminIndy

originally posted by: WarminIndy
Can you answer my simple question from my post...

What is the qiblah for Christians?

I don't know, why don't you tell me?
From what I've seen, it is usually facing forward towards the cross in the front of the church. The church itself is generally aligned east to west, so you'd be facing east.

Are you satisfied with all the responses to all the previous discussion you had had, and resigned yourself to having been incorrect in your understanding (hence the silence on them)? Does this thread have a purpose any longer? Well...did it ever actually have a purpose? Or are you simply jumping along from topic to topic based on half-formed understandings of Islam, ignoring responses as they come, trying to find some "conundrum" by mixing technicalities of english grammar with arabic language. Are you literally trying to "disprove" Islam?


It would be a lot simpler if you read up a bit on the topic, absorbed some information, THEN asked your questions.
edit on 8-6-2015 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-6-2015 by babloyi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 8 2015 @ 01:10 AM
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a reply to: WarminIndy

And you have another condundrum to explain how you can really let this one get by...

Al' Azeez

If Al-Azeez is one of the names of Allah, then what is Allah doing with a wife? Not only that, Al Azeez's wife tried to seduce Joseph.


Surat Yūsuf (Joseph) 12:51 Said [the king to the women], "What was your condition when you sought to seduce Joseph?" They said, "Perfect is Allah ! We know about him no evil." The wife of al-'Azeez said, "Now the truth has become evident. It was I who sought to seduce him, and indeed, he is of the truthful.


May I ask respectfully, why does the Quran place onto Potiphar the name Al Azeez, when Al Azeez is one of the names of Allah?

Is Potiphar Allah?

And not only that, the Quran got the whole story wrong. Joseph's brothers were all grown men, they were out tending sheep when Joseph was sent to see them. THEY threw him the well, then THEY sold him to the..wait for it....ISHMAELITES. Who then took Joseph to Egypt. THEN his brothers took his coat of many colors, that the Quran calls a shirt.

See the problem here? One of the most venerated legends in Torah, the selling of Joseph by his brothers,

But HERE is the most wrong thing in that surah...

And he raised his parents upon the throne, and they bowed to him in prostration. And he said, "O my father, this is the explanation of my vision of before. My Lord has made it reality. And He was certainly good to me when He took me out of prison and brought you [here] from bedouin life after Satan had induced [estrangement] between me and my brothers. Indeed, my Lord is Subtle in what He wills. Indeed, it is He who is the Knowing, the Wise.


Oh such a nice retelling, but it is wrong. Sadly, you must be informed of this fact, his mother Rachel had died right after giving birth to Benjamin, so it is woefully impossible for her to have been there on such a great occasion. I'm sure she would have loved to have been there, but the woman was already buried for over 25 years in Beit Lechem (Bethlehem).



posted on Jun, 8 2015 @ 01:25 AM
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originally posted by: babloyi
a reply to: WarminIndy

originally posted by: WarminIndy
Can you answer my simple question from my post...

What is the qiblah for Christians?

I don't know, why don't you tell me?
From what I've seen, it is usually facing forward towards the cross in the front of the church. The church itself is generally aligned east to west, so you'd be facing east.

Are you satisfied with all the responses to all the previous discussion you had had, and resigned yourself to having been incorrect in your understanding (hence the silence on them)? Does this thread have a purpose any longer? Well...did it ever actually have a purpose? Or are you simply jumping along from topic to topic based on half-formed understandings of Islam, ignoring responses as they come, trying to find some "conundrum" by mixing technicalities of english grammar with arabic language. Are you literally trying to "disprove" Islam?


It would be a lot simpler if you read up a bit on the topic, absorbed some information, THEN asked your questions.


There is NO qiblah for the Christian, obligatory, fatwa or otherwise. Those people in church are already facing the front, where the cross is. That is not obligatory.

Christians can pray anytime, anywhere, in whatever fashion they desire, within or without church. The Christian message is from Jesus...


John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.


The Christian prays in Spirit AND in Truth, we worship in Spirit AND in truth. There is no qiblah for the Christian to turn, because we pray IN the Spirit AND in truth. For the FATHER seeks such to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

Jonah looked up to pray, Hezekiah looked at the wall and prayed. And Jesus said

Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.


There is NO qiblah for the Christian. The Quran got it wrong.

In what direction did Adam, Abel, Seth, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph....Moses pray if there was no temple, no tabernacle and no city?

No qiblah for the above, therefore no obligation or fatwa to turn in any direction.



posted on Jun, 8 2015 @ 01:50 AM
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a reply to: WarminIndy
I'm sorry, what?
Orientation of Churches
Something to do with the sun, apparently. Obviously a tradition of facing a certain way, hailing all the way back to the beginnings of Christianity.

So I take it from your silence that this thread actually has no point?



posted on Jun, 8 2015 @ 03:01 AM
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Oh this thread lol.
I wonder what the truth motives of the OP is guesses anyone?.


Oh and charlie can Muslims vote on Pop Idol?.



posted on Jun, 8 2015 @ 03:04 AM
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a reply to: babloyi

Attempting to disprove a rival religion when his evidence for his religion is flimsy at best lol man just too funny lol.
Warm wants everyone to leave Christians alone but loves to attack others religions.
Oh and cheers Muslims dudes I have learn't from your answers so even a bad thread has it's upside.




posted on Jun, 8 2015 @ 07:09 AM
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a reply to: boymonkey74


Oh and charlie can Muslims vote on Pop Idol?


Haha, I'm sure some of them do.



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