Does Anyone Actually hate Christians??

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: Entreri06
Excellent post. Starred.

But here are my questions: Does the fact that we can replicate a natural phenomena, mean that it happens by the same means we use to replicate it?

Additionally: Does the fact that we can replicate a natural phenomena, negate the phenomena. Or does it just prove that we can replicate it?

I've had all kinds of OBE's, "experiences", time memories, premonitions --- since first memory. Fortunately, not an NDE.

Just saying we don't know it all. And I belief there is both brain causation and other.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Entreri06

Those that tout NDE's as proof of Christianity know that as well but still put them up as proof.

I think NDEs are an important current subject of study, and they really have nothing to do with "Christianity". A person can be perfectly non-Christian and still find NDEs fascinating. Hence the "spiritual" perspective that refuses "Christian" dogma.


It's more about the study of consciousness and the mind being a separate but just as powerful and real 'thing' as "the brain."

I don't think they would be recreate able in a lab setting if they were some thing supernatural or paranormal. I wouldn't be surprised to find out our brain uses some quantumness to use information, but that still doesn't point to a "soul" separate from the brain. It would be awesome if we were all immortals who passed our souls on some how. But why would that be the case? Just because it sounds good? We arnt different from any other life on earth. Are they all immortal? Populations increase, so where are all the new souls comming from?

It's just not the way the logic plays out IMHO.

a reply to: Entreri06

I read an interesting article in TheAtlantic yesterday about the science of NDE study.

It's off-topic, though.....

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: Annee
Actual definition of agnostic by the guy who wrote it.

It means God can not be proven or dis-proven.

Agnosticism, in fact, is not a creed, but a method, the essence of which lies in the rigorous application of a single principle ... Positively the principle may be expressed: In matters of the intellect, follow your reason as far as it will take you, without regard to any other consideration. And negatively: In matters of the intellect do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable. —Thomas Henry Huxley

I think most religions define atheist and agnostic according to their own bias. For the Christian...
"...whatever is not from faith is sin." Romans 14:23

Romans 14:32 has to do with faith vs living by the law or good works as a determiner of standing with God. Not knowing this and so hacking at scripture to produce your own idea of a bias is why you shouldn't feel comfortable in your opinions until you school up a bit. And why atheist generally don't know enough about what it is they are talking against.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: Annee
Actual definition of agnostic by the guy who wrote it.

It means God can not be proven or dis-proven.

Agnosticism, in fact, is not a creed, but a method, the essence of which lies in the rigorous application of a single principle ... Positively the principle may be expressed: In matters of the intellect, follow your reason as far as it will take you, without regard to any other consideration. And negatively: In matters of the intellect do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable. —Thomas Henry Huxley

I think most religions define atheist and agnostic according to their own bias. For the Christian...
"...whatever is not from faith is sin." Romans 14:23

Romans 14:32 has to do with faith vs living by the law or good works as a determiner of standing with God. Not knowing this and so hacking at scripture to produce your own idea of a bias is why you shouldn't feel comfortable in your opinions until you school up a bit. And why atheist generally don't know enough about what it is they are talking against.

I know what that scripture is talking about, and in context too. I certainly can't hack scripture as well as the 35,000 sects of Christianity, even if I tried. The fact remains, whether one is speaking of eating meat sacrificed to idols, the law, or right standing with God, Paul's intent was clear, and is in line with other scriptures to that effect.

And btw, there are 23 verses in Romans 14, not 32.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Entreri06

Those that tout NDE's as proof of Christianity know that as well but still put them up as proof.

I think NDEs are an important current subject of study, and they really have nothing to do with "Christianity". A person can be perfectly non-Christian and still find NDEs fascinating. Hence the "spiritual" perspective that refuses "Christian" dogma.


It's more about the study of consciousness and the mind being a separate but just as powerful and real 'thing' as "the brain."

Well whatever the case christian or anybody could have an OBE. Seeing they have to do with the sprit, the human soul whatever leaving the body and everybody has one. As far as dogma there is no dogma, no consensus among christians about OBE. Sure some jump on it certainly when a person says something about an OBE that confirms things for them.

What some should note though is that the majority of criticism about OBE comes from the brainwave consciousness chemicals released and lack of oxygen crowd. Like they don't have an ax to grind. I mean dam. They are the primary wet blanket for the whole conversation about OBE. And they are "dogmatic"!

originally posted by: Logarock
And why atheist generally don't know enough about what it is they are talking against.

Many atheists find their way through religion, not in spite of it.

That's why in bible debates the atheist often wins.

a reply to: Logarock

Well whatever the case christian or anybody could have an OBE. Seeing they have to do with the sprit, the human soul whatever leaving the body and everybody has one.

Right.

The human spirit does not depend on "Christianity" to exist.
Finally, something we can agree on.

a reply to: Klassified


Way to back out of that. So you understood what the passage was really about but chose to sample it for a show of bias.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Logarock

Well whatever the case christian or anybody could have an OBE. Seeing they have to do with the sprit, the human soul whatever leaving the body and everybody has one.

Right.

The human spirit does not depend on "Christianity" to exist.
Finally, something we can agree on.

Yea well I agree with what you just said but that really wasn't my direction. That we all have sprits, are sprits, given us by the creator most certainly in the womb or may before as some believe. Part of the life gift. In that regard any sprit leaving its body could have an OBE. I always thought that was understood to be a universal. What is not universal is the definition in relation to ect, ect. I mean just because the Buddhist understand that there is a sprit a soul really doesn't surprise me at all. Its elementary. The true nature of the soul, its beginning and destiny is a matter of great disagreement and rightful so.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Logarock

Well whatever the case christian or anybody could have an OBE. Seeing they have to do with the sprit, the human soul whatever leaving the body and everybody has one.

Right.

The human spirit does not depend on "Christianity" to exist.
Finally, something we can agree on.

Right, and what exactly is a soul?

I believe in an energy collective consciousness. I don't need to label it as a "soul".

a reply to: Logarock

Oh, okay. Even if it wasn't your real drift, I still agree with you.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Logarock

Well whatever the case christian or anybody could have an OBE. Seeing they have to do with the sprit, the human soul whatever leaving the body and everybody has one.

Right.

The human spirit does not depend on "Christianity" to exist.
Finally, something we can agree on.

Christians do believe that for the soul to exist outside the body in a state of "life" is dependent on Christ as the Door, the Way, the Truth and the Life.

a reply to: Annee

I believe in an energy collective consciousness. I don't need to label it as a "soul".

So do I.
I'd call it the 'divine spark', if anything. We are all part of the universe at large.

a reply to: Logarock

Christians do believe that for the soul to exist outside the body in a state of "life" is dependent on Christ as the Door, the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Yep, but they are not the only ones who believe in a soul. And I don't agree with their exclusivity and condemnation of others who aren't Christian.

One does not need to be a "Christian" to believe in OBEs, NDEs, a spirit, or an immortal soul.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Logarock

Well whatever the case christian or anybody could have an OBE. Seeing they have to do with the sprit, the human soul whatever leaving the body and everybody has one.

Right.

The human spirit does not depend on "Christianity" to exist.
Finally, something we can agree on.

Right, and what exactly is a soul?

I believe in an energy collective consciousness. I don't need to label it as a "soul".

Its you inside your body, the thing that animates your biological unit. The thing that needs eys to see and legs to walk around with on this level of reality.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Logarock

Christians do believe that for the soul to exist outside the body in a state of "life" is dependent on Christ as the Door, the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Yep, but they are not the only ones who believe in a soul. And I don't agree with their exclusivity and condemnation of others who aren't Christian.

One does not need to be a "Christian" to believe in OBEs, NDEs, a spirit, or an immortal soul.

I have just said as much. And didn't really condemn anyone just pointing out the difference. However I do understand that in this discussion just postulating in a christian frame is taken as condemnation.

a reply to: Logarock

However I do understand that in this discussion just postulating in a christian frame is taken as condemnation.

Do some Christians not say that ONLY CHRISTIANS will have an afterlife?
If that's not what you think, then I have misinterpreted your beliefs for a long time.

I don't think "being a Christian" is a prerequisite for an afterlife, a soul, or continuation as energy/matter in the universe in some form or another.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Logarock

Well whatever the case christian or anybody could have an OBE. Seeing they have to do with the sprit, the human soul whatever leaving the body and everybody has one.

Right.

The human spirit does not depend on "Christianity" to exist.
Finally, something we can agree on.

Right, and what exactly is a soul?

I believe in an energy collective consciousness. I don't need to label it as a "soul".

Its you inside your body, the thing that animates your biological unit. The thing that needs eys to see and legs to walk around with on this level of reality.

To me, the label "soul" gives it a religious/God connection. Not that it particularly matters to me. But, some then judge me, that if I believe in a soul I can't deny God.

Well, yes I can.

I lack belief in a god, any god.

I have found using any kind of "religious language" is like turning on an electric neon bullseye for religious attack.

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: Klassified


Way to back out of that. So you understood what the passage was really about but chose to sample it for a show of bias.

I backed out of nothing. Those few words at the end of that verse, tie right into Hebrews 11, but I'm not going to argue scriptural semantics with you. My intent in posting it to start with was to show the Christian perspective on such things. Nice try, though.