Neil DeGrasse Tyson: ET and DNA

a reply to: Scdfa

O no dont get me wrong i absolutely know that at least half of abduction stories are real ( most being the older stories) but nowadays you know if people think it will get them on t.v. or something they'll say anything. I haven't been abducted myself but i have seen alot of stuff in the sky that made me go WTF was that and i've lived on a military base before for 5 months so i know planes and jets and flares and all that

a reply to: rebellion7
There is definitely something to the sleep paralysis explanations but they are usually combined with hypnosis and false memories. I was all but sold on that theory until I started reading about the accounts that dont really fit. But then, they don't all fit abduction accounts either. So, I will go as far as saying that there is something going on that is not completely understood and that nothing can be ruled out.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: rebellion7
There is definitely something to the sleep paralysis explanations but they are usually combined with hypnosis and false memories. I was all but sold on that theory until I started reading about the accounts that dont really fit. But then, they don't all fit abduction accounts either. So, I will go as far as saying that there is something going on that is not completely understood and that nothing can be ruled out.

I believe you're familiar with my story. How would you explain it?

a reply to: draknoir2
Was that the one over in the debunking debunkers that debunk alien abductions? That sounded like SP if I remember. Isn't that what you thought? I dont know, I try not to explain anyone's personal experiences unless it sounds like they have a brain tumor or something.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

Yeah, this one.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I don't even try to explain it. Just happened.

a reply to: draknoir2
Hey, I remember that thread. I am such an ass sometimes. But yeah, I probably have changed my thinking slightly since.

I don't even try to explain it. Just happened.

I get that. I have some personal experiences I would rather not explain away as something...because they are just too cool.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: rebellion7
There is definitely something to the sleep paralysis explanations but they are usually combined with hypnosis and false memories. I was all but sold on that theory until I started reading about the accounts that dont really fit. But then, they don't all fit abduction accounts either. So, I will go as far as saying that there is something going on that is not completely understood and that nothing can be ruled out.

I agree that so many abduction claims and experiences simply don't fit under the very limited excuse of sleep paralysis, which only lasts a few seconds, as I understand it.

Here's where the SPH falls to the ground: Many, if not perhaps most, alien abductions occur to people who are not asleep or in bed at all, but are wide awake and engaged in some activity.

And that's where "sleep paralysis" goes right out the window.(I'm not sure why they won't let me type the word "window" in there?)

And you don't have to look too far to find abductees who were wide awake at the time. Start with the big cases.

Travis Walton. With five other people at a worksite.

Betty and Barney Hill, driving on a highway.

The Allagash four, paddling a canoe on a lake.

The Buff ledge abductions 1968, taken from a lake at a summer camp, with witnesses to the craft.

I could go on all day.

You start to see that there are very few cases indeed where the 'sleep paralysis' theory could be even entertained as an explanation. Personally, I think it's a joke, and just more disinformation force-fed to a gullible, easily frightened public.

And obviously, none of those could possibly be hoaxed.

Even when they changed their stories a couple of times or failed four or five lie detector examinations.

Harte

a reply to: Scdfa
Cool. Sounds good.

originally posted by: Harte
And obviously, none of those could possibly be hoaxed.

Even when they changed their stories a couple of times or failed four or five lie detector examinations.

Harte

And of course there is never any evidence to support the original story...

Oh wait!!! That's not true at all, Some have very good evidence associated...Like the Hill "star map"...

originally posted by: tanka418

originally posted by: Harte
And obviously, none of those could possibly be hoaxed.

Even when they changed their stories a couple of times or failed four or five lie detector examinations.

Harte

And of course there is never any evidence to support the original story...

Oh wait!!! That's not true at all, Some have very good evidence associated...Like the Hill "star map"...

I'm with you on that but they'll just call that a hoax too.

originally posted by: TrueMessiah

originally posted by: tanka418

originally posted by: Harte
And obviously, none of those could possibly be hoaxed.

Even when they changed their stories a couple of times or failed four or five lie detector examinations.

Harte

And of course there is never any evidence to support the original story...

Oh wait!!! That's not true at all, Some have very good evidence associated...Like the Hill "star map"...

I'm with you on that but they'll just call that a hoax too.

The map alone is, in my opinion, rather compelling data...The probabilities of random chance are so vanishingly small that it is ridiculous. I've put some work into it recently, and the only thing I haven't done is run a "template matching algorithm"...but, I already know there is a match, and I know the probability of random, kind of indicates that the additional work aren't necessary.

But, that's just my professional opinion.

originally posted by: Harte
And obviously, none of those could possibly be hoaxed.

Even when they changed their stories a couple of times or failed four or five lie detector examinations.

Harte

You're moving the goalposts. We were discussing sleep paralysis as an explanation for alien abductions, and I gave examples of abduction cases where SP wouldn't work.

If you want to start a conversation on hoaxes, I'll weigh in, most likely.

But I'm curious, you allege someone failed four or five lie detector examinations, care to elaborate on that allegation?

a reply to: Scdfa
I don't think anyone has seriously suggested that any of those cases were due to SP anyway so there wont be much of a discussion. The SP explanation fits a certain type of case. Usually the ones where someone is in bed...and there are plenty of those. Then there are all those "paranormal" type cases that seem to overlap the abduction cases and seems nothing really fits a "typical" scenario, unless you throw out the ones that don't fit what you are looking for.

And then there is the drug induced states where people experience "beings" and believe them to be real. A drug that is essentially made by our bodies at night. Nobody wants to discuss that. There is no formal theory with that for abductions as far I know yet, but they are making discoveries along those lines all the time. A theory like that would encompass a lot more then just SP but it brings along its own "woo". Then there is false memories, frontal lobe epilepsy, hypnotic suggestion and just plain old suggestion and group dynamics. Then there is the media hype and sensationalism. Its a mess to sort through really but its totally awesome that you guys can just ignore all that and declare aliens while calling people like me all sorts of derogatory names and calling real theories "excuses". Maybe they aren't the best explanations, but you could become familiar with them, understand what they are saying and then have at it.

Personally, I think it's a joke, and just more disinformation force-fed to a gullible, easily frightened public.

It really doesn't say a whole lot for the believer side and it really doesn't come off as intelligent. Im not sure what you are going for with these types of comments. Maybe its just your own projection? I don't know. Why not step it up a bit?

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: Scdfa
I don't think anyone has seriously suggested that any of those cases were due to SP anyway so there wont be much of a discussion. The SP explanation fits a certain type of case. Usually the ones where someone is in bed...and there are plenty of those. Then there are all those "paranormal" type cases that seem to overlap the abduction cases and seems nothing really fits a "typical" scenario, unless you throw out the ones that don't fit what you are looking for.

And then there is the drug induced states where people experience "beings" and believe them to be real. A drug that is essentially made by our bodies at night. Nobody wants to discuss that. There is no formal theory with that for abductions as far I know yet, but they are making discoveries along those lines all the time. A theory like that would encompass a lot more then just SP but it brings along its own "woo". Then there is false memories, frontal lobe epilepsy, hypnotic suggestion and just plain old suggestion and group dynamics. Then there is the media hype and sensationalism. Its a mess to sort through really but its totally awesome that you guys can just ignore all that and declare aliens while calling people like me all sorts of derogatory names and calling real theories "excuses". Maybe they aren't the best explanations, but you could become familiar with them, understand what they are saying and then have at it.

Personally, I think it's a joke, and just more disinformation force-fed to a gullible, easily frightened public.

It really doesn't say a whole lot for the believer side and it really doesn't come off as intelligent. Im not sure what you are going for with these types of comments. Maybe its just your own projection? I don't know. Why not step it up a bit?

I agree with a great deal of what zeta says here, but I don't feel he's the best judge of whether I come off as intelligent or not, history will decide if I'm right or wrong.

I stand by my statements regarding sleep paralysis being the latest in a series of excuses du jour, to undermine efforts to treat alien abductions seriously.

What zeta proposes is fine, for people like zeta who are on the fence about aliens. People who treat aliens as a topic of idle speculation, to wonder and theorize about. People who just don't know. For those people, it's fine to weigh the latest theories that suggest alien contact isn't real.

But there are people who have seen enough, or heard enough, or experienced enough to conclude, or to know, that alien contact is indeed happening.

For these people, the conversation has moved forward. Past the point where entertaining theories that debunk what they know to be true is worthwhile.

Because the real conversation begins when you get past the question. "Is alien contact real?" Up until you decide that, aliens are simply speculation, a possibility. Once you know the answer to that, the issue becomes far more serious. It gets real.

I simply don't have the luxury of taking sleep paralysis seriously. I'm certain people experience sleep paralysis, of course. But I'm here to discuss the people who were abducted by aliens, not the people who weren't.

But we all come to this subject with different levels of interest, and different levels of understanding. A lot of people have a little piece of the puzzle, and a lot of people are just puzzled.

a reply to: Scdfa

I simply don't have the luxury of taking sleep paralysis seriously.

Unfortunately its the mainstream explanation so you sort of have to. To be honest it doesn't sound like you know a whole lot about it and it is really hard to dismantle something you don't know about. Should be an easy dismantle.

I'm certain people experience sleep paralysis, of course. But I'm here to discuss the people who were abducted by aliens, not the people who weren't.

Unfortunately it is really difficult to weed out those candidate cases because of the prevailing attitudes on both extremes. There seems to be way too much nonsense mixed in with some things that might be worth while on one side and the other side rejects everything because of the nonsense.

For these people, the conversation has moved forward. Past the point where entertaining theories that debunk what they know to be true is worthwhile.

NOBODY knows enough about anything to move anything forward. Understanding how the mind works has nothing to do with debunking. Even if aliens are here, we still have minds. Besides, aliens aren't reveling themselves, so until they do, its probably wise to make use of the idle time by learning things worthwhile. I cant think of anything more worthwhile then learning about the things that are confused with aliens.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

NOBODY knows enough about anything to move anything forward.

Speak for yourself, zeta. I've spent fifty years living with the reality of alien contact. If you're under the impression that you and I come to the subject of alien contact with the same level of knowledge, it sure isn't evident in your posts.

Besides, aliens aren't reveling themselves,

To you, you mean?

They revealed themselves to me in 1966. And up until 2011.

And I'm sure you mean revealing, not reveling. But don't let me interrupt you telling me how little I understand.

a reply to: Scdfa

Speak for yourself, zeta. I've spent fifty years living with the reality of alien contact. If you're under the impression that you and I come to the subject of alien contact with the same level of knowledge, it sure isn't evident in your posts.

I do speak for myself. Nobody has any more knowledge then anyone else. you are just someone else making claims. get in line. Are you sure you don't mean fifteen?

And I'm sure you mean revealing, not reveling.

predictable as usual. that's not good.

But don't let me interrupt you telling me how little I understand

more projection? Where exactly did I say that?
The fact that you cant understand that you are just another poster here that is the same as everyone else is very telling. What do you want everyone to do? Gather around the camp fire and listen to your stories and not question anything because you know everything there is to know? Did the aliens give you special permission to act like this? You have had personal experiences. That is awesome. Nobody can take that away from you. But I guess your experiences trump everyone elses experiences and...who are you again? oh right. A dude on an internet forum. You do realize that anyone can come here and say stuff. Anyway, good luck to you on your mission.

a reply to: Scdfa

Your pedantry makes you come across as a condescending ass, and your own errors in comprehension (see blinkers/blinders for example), do you no favours either.

Now if I had to judge on forum postings with no prior knowledge of yourself, nor Zeta (FYI, proper nouns should be capitalised), I think Zeta brings a far more open and rounded perspective to this topic than yourself. Your insistence on constantly being correct, calling anything that calls into question your abduction hypothesis 'denialist' (amongst other names), and praising anyone who agrees with you, combined with denigrating anybody who does not, creates the impression of a small minded and intellectually dishonest person, who brings nothing to the table but a series of unprovable tales with no compelling evidence at all.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

Im not trying to debunk ALL abduction stories because i have a friend who claims she was abducted 3 yrs ago but doesn't want to talk or even think about it anymore do to her friends and family accussing her of seeking attention. My only argument is that it is becoming harder to separate true abductees from attention seekers you know