Perfection or Imperfection? Can you follow the one you have not known? Once Saved always Saved? NO!

a reply to: OpinionatedB

Let me explain it this way.

Jesus was tempted in every way we are, but was without sin.

God the Father does not tempt nor can he be tempted. God did not become the son to allow himself to be tempted.

The Son is the Light and the Light was spoken into creation in Geneses. "Let Their be Light", "He saw the Light was Good", If Jesus is the Light and the Light was spoken into existence by the Father, then he cannot be the Father.

He was created to be Like the Father from the moment of creation. We have forgotten our purpose and are being refined in the fires until we learn to obey the commandments and become Like him, by following the Light within.

a reply to: sacgamer25

I do not have any need of any explanation..

Take good care.

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: sacgamer25

I do not have any need of any explanation..

Take good care.

This is my thread and although you may not care that I have used scripture to plainly and emphatically destroy the trinity concept others may actually want the truth.

a reply to: sacgamer25

According to the book, God not only does tempt man...

but he can also be tempted...

a reply to: sacgamer25

I am not stopping you from speaking, just saying that I did not need an explanation.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: sacgamer25

According to the book, God not only does tempt man...

but he can also be tempted...

Where does it say that? I am sure you are right but I will need to read it so I can explain how the texts have been misunderstood. The only ones who tempt are the Light and Satan according to what I have come to understand. Love itself does not tempt nor can Love be tempted.

Their may exist some places where the Lord in the OT, who is Christ is being tempted. But I do not believe that the Father is depicted as being tempted. I know you don't believe that Christ is the Lord of the OT, but that is the only way to reconcile this concept.

a reply to: sacgamer25

Genesis 21... the first line says it clearly.... God tempted Abraham...

Exodus 17:2 says God can be tempted specifically...

I know you don't believe that Christ is the Lord of the OT, but that is the only way to reconcile this concept.
edit on 14-1-2015 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

Actuallly no... its easily reconciled when one understands that the OT is not of God

At least mostly not of God

a reply to: Akragon

In the OT their remains these complaints. Jesus called the Israelites to murder in war. If you read through the accounts of War that are directed by Jesus, the Israelites are always either Killing in Self defense or Killing demon worshipers who practice human sacrifice.

Then their is the punishment prescribed in the Levitical Code and the problem with the condemnation of Homosexuality. The Israelites rejected the God who was with Moses on the Mountain when he tried to speak to them, then they rejected him again when Moses was on the Mountain with God. This is why the received a religion. The Levitical Code was a foreshadowing of Christ. If one breaks the Laws that they believe God gave them they will fill shame and remorse. The Laws for the most part we would agree were good Laws, most of which foreshadow things to come.

No other texts prescribes punishment for those who claim to be born homosexual, so I believe that this was a message that God had chosen a people that would not have that imperfection of the flesh, but the gentiles would have still been subjected to the imperfection of the flesh that causes same sex attraction.

When I say imperfection of the flesh I am not saying that the person is imperfect. I am merely stating a scientifically sound argument. The perfect flesh would be attracted to the opposite sex so they could procreate. But our flesh is not perfect, and our birthrights are based on Chaos. So if someone claims they were born attracted to the same sex then we should no more consider them a sinner than we consider a child with down syndrome a sinner.

The psychologist have proven it, science wins, some people are born attracted to the same sex. The texts condemn only those who are born straight and then turn to homosexuality because they are addicted to sex. It condemns those who Buy and Sell Prostitutes, but not the prostitute themselves if they have been left with no other choice, God does not condemn the rapped. And the word Effimate may translate to homosexuals who seduce straight people into homosexuality, but does not condemn the homosexual that seeks a homosexual partner.

The only one in all the texts that I have a hard time with, and I think it is in the Law for 2 reasons. The law that says a raped woman who was not pledged to Marry must Marry her assailant. I think this is foreshadowing something that Christ said and a point that the world needs to understand 2 wrongs don't make a right. Meaning once they had sex, they became one sexually and the woman will never really feel the same about sex. This law prevents young women claiming rape to avoid marrying someone.

But if the young woman cries to her father do not make me marry the man who rapped me, the father has been given the right to break any pledge made by his daughter or his wife. If he does not accept the marriage he has that right in the Jewish faith, even after the couple has consummated, to deny the marriage. In this way the father of the girl has the last say and he should do what is right according the Spirit.

These are the only laws and actions in the OT that I can see people not believing, but I don't really understand why it is so difficult to accept what has to be true.

a reply to: sacgamer25

Well first off Jesus didn't say anything in the OT... not a single word

Secondly... it wasn't just war... It was people conquering and pillaging lands that were not theirs, but they took them by force because "god" said these lands were given to them... yet there were people already in possession of them...

there were excuses made such as "these people worshipped demons" or they ate babies... Yet theres no evidence of anything of the sort... just one group conquering another because "god" said it was a good idea...

And human sacrifice? Really?

Like Jesus being executed because God wanted his blood to redeem mankind?

Yes, homosexuality and killing those that are is one issue ... but what about killing woman and Children?

killing the innocent by the boat load...

Killing your own children because they were disobedient?

how about Killing witches and fortune tellers?

how about Cutting open the bellies of pregnant women?

The atrocities found in the OT are numerous beyond compare... and can be attributed to nothing less then a blood thirsty tyrant of a False god... or MAN

Honestly I've heard people say that jesus was the lord of the OT... nothing sickens me more then the very thought of the lord of peace being associated with that disgusting critter

Whatever it was.... it was not God

a reply to: WarminIndy

Yes, you said "like a warrior" but a warrior needs enemies, so metaphorically there needs to be enemies. Are there?

Yes, ignorance of the knowledge of salvation.

a reply to: Akragon

Personally I find that calling Jesus God makes him a liar by omission... and takes glory from the Father who is the true God

We should glorify the son, without a doubt... but even he gave the glory to the Father, and kept none for himself...

We glorify God through Jesus.
How else would you know anything about God's character except through the works of Jesus on behalf of God?

a reply to: WarminIndy

The Holy Spirit manifested physically.

That was a sign of His presence, which would then made that place "holy", thus driving out ordinary people who would normally occupy that space.

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Comes in whose glory?

Didn't give it back, He's coming in the glory of God the Father. That's the Gospel right there.

Notice how Jesus says, This Generation, which is those who rejected the King of Peace, and went with the murderous rebels who fought against the Romans and brought down the destruction of Jerusalem.
So that "coming" was the apocalyptic visitation of Judgment on the Jews of 70 AD.

a reply to: Akragon

The only way anyone knows about Jesus is through the words written in the bible... without which Jesus would not be anyone... but God still exists

Right, but the Bible goes on to point out that God delegates authority to others to deal with rebellious people who do not naturally recognize His authority, making them "acting" God, in His name.

a reply to: Akragon

generally speaking yes.... IF the bible didn't exist... Jesus would have been just another person lost to history and time

And Even IF it didn't exist, and he came to you... no one would know who or what you're talking about anyways

But "the Bible", as in the New Testament, would not exist, in my opinion, if Jesus had not come to Paul as the risen and glorified Christ.
Rather than Paul's writings being a sort of outgrowth of the gospel books, I think it is the other way around, that those gospels are based on the gospel of Paul.

a reply to: Akragon

Secondly... it wasn't just war... It was people conquering and pillaging lands that were not theirs, but they took them by force because "god" said these lands were given to them... yet there were people already in possession of them...

It's a story, and to make their God great and deserving of honor by the empires, there had to be more than just a land full of diverse ethnic groups, so there was the fictional device of "the 12 tribes" that were all related, who conquered the land in the name of a single, unifying God.

The harsh reality, in my opinion, is that all of this only existed on paper and was to create the background for the allowance of a client state based in Jerusalem and the preeminence of the temple built there.

a reply to: Akragon

Who created the evil paths that men take?

Did got not create the path of demon worship and the path of Light?

Or do you believe that God only created good, and that man goes on his own path? Do you believe that man was the first one to have the idea of human sacrifice or God?

Can man imagine anything that did not first come the imagination of God?

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

You can not escape the obvious. Both the dark and Light path exist. And few find the path of Light.

So you either believe in One God that created all available paths, or you believe that God is really in a Holy War with those who are evil.

You have to believe in demon worship, that power can come from worshipping demons, if you think anyone other than the One God created the dark path.

If God created the dark path, and for reasons that make no since to you decided to instuct the things he instructed the Israelites to do, why do you stand in judgment of God?

If the existence of Evil disproves a loving God then thier can be no loving God. Unless of course the One God admits to creating the darkness so that we may learn how to be Like Him.

a reply to: sacgamer25

Who created the evil paths that men take?

Man did...

Did got not create the path of demon worship and the path of Light?

no... Again, Man did...

Or do you believe that God only created good, and that man goes on his own path? Do you believe that man was the first one to have the idea of human sacrifice or God?

God created... in the beginning there was no good, no bad... Just creation itself...

And Yes... Man was the one who created human sacrifice as well... Only man would be so disgusting

Can man imagine anything that did not first come the imagination of God?

that has nothing to do with it... Man's imagination is based on what is in front of him... what he/she has experienced...

You can not escape the obvious. Both the dark and Light path exist. And few find the path of Light.

Im not escaping anything... but don't quote a false god and expect me to agree with it

The path of light and dark both exist... One is based on selfishness, one is based on Selflessness...

One is spiritual, One is material...

You have to believe in demon worship, that power can come from worshipping demons, if you think anyone other than the One God created the dark path.

Please don't tell me what I have to believe... I don't believe in Demons... or devils... or anything of the like... that is fear based propaganda designed to keep people fearing the unknown

review what I've written thus far above, and re-examine that last statement

If God created the dark path, and for reasons that make no since to you decided to instuct the things he instructed the Israelites to do, why do you stand in judgment of God?

Simply because HE didn't... Im not judging God since the events you are speaking of are NOT of God...

I judge a false god as he/she/it is... and happy to do so

If the existence of Evil disproves a loving God then thier can be no loving God. Unless of course the One God admits to creating the darkness so that we may learn how to be Like Him.

You believe evil exists, and evil entities exist... Then why can this false god not exist... and be said evil

a reply to: Akragon

I don't believe that thier is any evil power accept the power of the lie. And the one who follows evil.

But I don't believe man is at war with his creator. I don't believe it is possible to do anything past what God has allowed in his creation.

People want to feel all warm and fuzzy about God, so they create an adversary.

You have decided that man himself is at war with God. And you have decided that man can imagine things that God himself never imagined. Doesn't that make our imagination superior to God's, at least in part?

I believe man is only in a war against himself, and the light and dark paths were created because we wanted the knowledge of Good and Evil.

God created the evil path and gave man freewill, knowing those who would follow the evil path would rise to be tyrannical leaders. The Babylonians actually serve humanity by becoming so lost in depravity that mankind can truly understand how dark the darkness can be.

a reply to: sacgamer25

I don't believe that thier is any evil power accept the power of the lie. And the one who follows evil.

That makes no sense... So theres no evil except the one who follows a lie?

You have decided that man himself is at war with God. And you have decided that man can imagine things that God himself never imagined. Doesn't that make our imagination superior to God's, at least in part?

I said nothing even close to that...

Are your glasses on straight brother?

I believe man is only in a war against himself, and the light and dark paths were created because we wanted the knowledge of Good and Evil.

God created the evil path and gave man freewill, knowing those who would follow the evil path would rise to be tyrannical leaders. The Babylonians actually serve humanity by becoming so lost in depravity that mankind can truly understand how dark the darkness can be.

IF you say so man...

said "dark" path is one of selfishness... that's all, theres no demons leading people down that path... One walks it themselves...

a reply to: Akragon
Evil has no power, the one who follows a lie gives power to evil.

Everyone has sinful thoughts, this is a part of the creation that has been explained by the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden.

Who created Satan who was given the power to send us sinful thoughts (lies against the Light that lead to death)? If their is only one creator then God himself created Satan. If God created Satan, can Satan be in a war with God, or is he a servant of God's?

Is God all knowing from the beginning to the end, meaning he could have stopped man at any time down the path of evil?

God can only be all good if the path of Babylon was created by him for the purpose known to him. Or, if he did not create it but only allows it, he still allowed the path of Babylon to be forged without stopping it, and therefore the purpose still suits him and is known to him.