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Putin Says Russia Helped Yanukovych to Escape Ukraine (Ukraine borders illegal - Crimea)

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posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 07:44 PM
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As stated time and again, Putin has lost all touch on reality.. While pro Russians defend Putin, Putin just pulled another about face in his invasion of Ukraine and illegal annexation of Crimea.

So, why did Russia invade Ukraine and annex Crimea? Its not because the people of Crimea wanted it-


Putin Says Russia Helped Yanukovych to Escape Ukraine


Russia helped to evacuate Yanukovych to Crimea, when the Black Sea peninsula was still part of Ukraine, and then agreed to assist him across the border into Russia, Putin told the annual Valdai Club meeting in Sochi today.

“I won’t conceal it that we helped him move to Crimea,” he said. “At that moment, Crimea was part of Ukraine. As the events in Kiev were developing very quickly and violently, it made no sense for him to return to Kiev.”

Putin’s comments mark the first time Russia has said it helped Yanukovych to flee into exile after months of anti-government protests in Kiev. Putin admitted in April that the soldiers who took control of Crimea before his annexation of the Black Sea territory were Russian. He’d previously denied that Russia’s military was involved.

The takeover of Crimea, which prompted the U.S. and its allies to impose sanctions, complied with United Nations norms, Putin said. The transfer of Crimea from Russia to Ukraine under the Soviet Union had been illegal, he said.


So Putin took Crimea because he said it was illegally transferred to Ukraine.

There is no UN standard that supports his claims.

What we have is Putin telling the world he does not want to rebuild the Soviet Union while at the same time he says Ukraines borders were illegal and essentially void because he said so.


This is also another example of Putin making claims the former President of Ukraine, Yanukovych, had contradicted. Yanukovych stated he never fled Ukraine.

Putin says otherwise...

Under the Ukraine's constitution if Yanukovych fled he automatically abdicated as President, rendering the back and forth over Ukraine's constitution a moot point.


We can turn Putin's lies into why he invaded Ukraine into a drinking game. Not only did Putin just verify what you guys have been stating he never said, he has just opened the door to invade other former SSR's.
edit on 24-10-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 08:26 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

While the West stand by, funding Israeli annexation of Palestine, they have no say in Russia doing the same thing...
That's a hypocritical double standard to begin with!


Add to that, Crimea has its own constitution which can call for a referendum whenever it wants...



How it came about may have been nefarious antics from Russia...
But the only proof of that is from the mouths of Western leaders...

And to that I refer you to my original sentence!


May I ask why you're so hellbent on demonising Russia/Putin while ignoring Ukrainian/Western bull # in this Ukrainian situation?
You seem much smarter than that X!



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 08:51 PM
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originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs

While the West stand by, funding Israeli annexation of Palestine, they have no say in Russia doing the same thing...
That's a hypocritical double standard to begin with!


The territory you are referring to was captured when Arab nations invaded Israel, not the other way around. In case you missed it Obama has no love for Israel and has strained relations to the point of non cooperation / leaving Israel on its own in certain areas. respectfully please don't drag the ME issues into this thread. You are more than welcome to respond to my post here, but if we want to discuss Isreal we need to make a new thread.




originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
Add to that, Crimea has its own constitution which can call for a referendum whenever it wants...


No it cant and the Ukraine Constitution, as well as Crimea's, noted it. The Crimean Constitution does not allow for Crimea to unilaterally make changes to Ukraine's territorial sovereignty. secondly, if you read the Op you would note that Putin is saying Ukraine's territorial boundaries are illegal. It has nothing to do with the illegal vote they held under Russian occupation.




originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
How it came about may have been nefarious antics from Russia...
But the only proof of that is from the mouths of Western leaders...

Uhm no - What we have is
* - Putin making claims about Crimea.
* - Pro Russian rebel leaders who are in fact Russian citizens making claims they have no business making.




originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
And to that I refer you to my original sentence!


May I ask why you're so hellbent on demonising Russia/Putin while ignoring Ukrainian/Western bull # in this Ukrainian situation?
You seem much smarter than that X!

Because I don't think people adequately grasp the danger Putin represents. The man cannot tell the truth. He is willing to kill those who don't agree with his vision of Russia. He thinks the collapse of the USSR was illegal. He is taking the position that former SSR's are also illegal based on land claims that never existed prior to Stalin.

There are people on this site who think the American Presidents lie all the time. For the most part, they do and it raises real issues. The problem here is people do not see that with putin. To argue the American government has done this or that while ignoring the very same when it comes to Russia serves no purpose. It undermines the moral argument they make and in the end reinforces the very behavior they called out in the first place.

We have a President where the only thing holding him upright is the starch in his shirt. He loves drones and has no abilities when it comes to military / strategic affairs. The chances of him attacking, hell even seeking, a confrontation with Russia is delusionary.

I have no issues with people calling my government out, as I have done many times. The issue becomes when people ignore the very issues they call out in the US.

Finally Putin is all over the board with justifications for his actions - something people intentionally ignore. I am stating that the excuse "we didn't know what the government was doing" did not work at Nuremberg and it wont work today.

Russia has mass potential to be a world class country other look to for inspiration. Putin is squandering Russia's future because he lives in the past.
edit on 24-10-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 09:22 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

I'll respect your wishes pal.
It's not my intention to derail the thread, merely to point out the massive contradiction the West is involved in!

You right that Putin has no proof it wasn't nefarious...
It's tit for tat, my word against yours kinda #, I just don't trust any of them!



Thanks for answering my question, well said too!

I'd agree 100%, except that he'd kill who he wants...
Everything else is spot on imo!



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 10:18 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra



Because I don't think people adequately grasp the danger Putin represents.

Holy hilariousness - you can’t tell the truth can you?? I dare you to utter which American administration is in office now. . . And say all of that to ATS with a straight face.

"Because I don't think people adequately grasp the danger Obama represents."



The man cannot tell the truth.

Again, utter the words of the American administration. Who’s President?



He is willing to kill those who don't agree with his vision of Russia.

Obama is willing to kill those who don’t agree with vision of USofA.



He thinks the collapse of the USSR was illegal.

Obama thinks he could use the old Reagan Cold War playbook, lol



There are people on this site who think the American Presidents lie all the time. For the most part, they do and it raises real issues.

Continue. . . .



The problem here is people do not see that with putin.

“The problem here is people do not see that with Obama”



To argue the American government has done this or that while ignoring the very same when it comes to Russia serves no purpose.

Riiiiight. Keep using the ‘exceptionalist’mentality



It undermines the moral argument they make and in the end reinforces the very behavior they called out in the first place.

Let me stop you early on the “Moral” aspect. Don’t go there.



We have a President where the only thing holding him upright is the starch in his shirt.

Continue. . .



He loves drones and has no abilities when it comes to military / strategic affairs.

Or even in domestic affairs. Sounds like all your hype was, well. . . just hype.



The chances of him attacking, hell even seeking, a confrontation with Russia is delusionary.

Could you please repeat that!!??



I have no issues with people calling my government out, as I have done many times. The issue becomes when people ignore the very issues they call out in the US.

Need more clarity. Because I didn’t understand all of that garble.



Finally Putin is all over the board with justifications for his actions - something people intentionally ignore.

• *PUTIN SPEAKS AT MEETING OF VALDAI CLUB IN SOCHI
*PUTIN SAYS WORLD GROWING LESS SECURE, PREDICTABLE
*PUTIN SAYS NO GUARANTEE OF GLOBAL SECURITY
• *GLOBAL SECURITY SYSTEM IS WEAK, DEFORMED: PUTIN
• *COLD WAR ENDED WITHOUT PEACE BEING ACHIEVED: PUTIN
• *PUTIN SAYS COLD WAR `VICTORS' DISMANTLING INTL LAWS, RELATIONS
*U.S. HAS WORSENED DISBALANCE IN INTL RELATIONS: PUTIN
• *PUTIN SAYS U.S.  ACTING LIKE NOUVEAU RICHE AS GLOBAL LEADER
• *PUTIN SAYS WORLD LEADERS BEING BLACKMAILED BY `BIG BROTHER'
*U.S. LEADERSHIP BRINGS NO GOOD FOR OTHERS: PUTIN
• *PUTIN SEES GLOBAL MEDIA UNDER CONTROL, UNDERMINING TRUTH
• *PUTIN SAYS WEST CLOSED EYES TO INTL TERRORISM ENTERING RUSSIA
*PUTIN CALLS U.S. SELF-APPOINTED LEADER
*PUTIN: UNIPOLAR WORLD LIKE DICTATORSHIP OVER OTHER COUNTRIES
• *PUTIN SAYS MANY COUNTRIES DISENCHANTED W/ GLOBALIZATION: PUTIN
*PUTIN SAYS U.S. DOLLAR LOSING TRUST AS RESERVE CURRENCY
• *RUSSIA WON'T BEG FOR ANYTHING: PUTIN
• *SANCTIONS UNDERMINING WORLD TRADE ORGANISATION RULES: PUTIN
• *RUSSIA ISN'T WALLING ITSELF OFF FROM WORLD, PUTIN SAYS
• *RUSSIA READY FOR DIALOGUE ON NORMALIZING ECONOMIC TIES: PUTIN
*PUTIN: WORLD WITHOUT RULES IS POSSIBILITY; ANARCHY GROWING
• *PUTIN CALLS FOR NEW GLOBAL CONSENSUS, INTERDEPENDENCE
• *PUTIN: CONTINUED USE OF FORCE IN UKRAINE MAY LEAD TO DEAD END
*PUTIN SAYS U.S. CAN'T HUMILIATE ITS PARTNERS FOREVER

* - You get a hard-on yet after reading that? So much win.




I am stating that the excuse "we didn't know what the government was doing" did not work at Nuremberg and it wont work today.

You’ve gone off the deep end. Huh!?



Russia has mass potential to be a world class country other look to for inspiration.

Russia will NEVER be an american b!tch. So drop it.



Putin is squandering Russia's future because he lives in the past.

Wrong again homie. Russia is NOT isolated & Putin has been wheelin' & dealin' like a boss. Sanctions are boomeranging to EU. Hows that triple dip recession?




Oh btw:


edit on 24-10-2014 by SurrenderingAmerica because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-10-2014 by SurrenderingAmerica because: txt correction



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 10:20 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra



I have no issues with people calling my government out, as I have done many times.


And at the same time you keep ignoring US involvement in the Ukrainian mess...WTF ?



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 10:40 PM
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***MOD NOTE***

KNOCK IT OFF!



You all know what kind of behavior is expected here at ATS, so I won't insult anyone's intelligence by posting links.



Do not reply to this post.



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 10:53 PM
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edit on 24-10-2014 by Agent_USA_Supporter because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2014 @ 12:36 PM
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originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: Xcathdra



I have no issues with people calling my government out, as I have done many times.


And at the same time you keep ignoring US involvement in the Ukrainian mess...WTF ?


Ignoring - nope.

Just because I don't subscribe to the mindset that the US somehow created the mess in Ukraine does not mean I ignore the US actions. you guys use recorded phone calls as evidence while ignoring the very same when it comes to MH17 Pro Russian / Russians being behind it.

There is more than ample evidence showing Russia invaded Ukraine.
There is more than ample evidence showing Russia rigged the election in Crimea.
There is more than ample evidence showing Putin changing his justifications to fit the current argument.

You guys make claims that the Us is involved yet have failed to produce any tangible evidence to support the accusation. You guys make claims and refuse to support your position with facts / sources.

You ignore the fact Putin and Yanukovych are giving differing versions of what occurred.

We now have Putin claiming Crimea belonged to Russia because the agreement back in the 1950's, when Crimea was given to Ukraine by the Russian government, was illegal. the problem with that is its a lie. We know this because of the agreement between Russia, the US/UK and Ukraine. You know, where Ukraine agreed to give up nuclear weapons in exchange for both sides leaving it alone.

You know, the agreement Putin violated when he invaded Ukraine and illegally annexed Crimea.

Russian language...
Ethnic Russian...
Self Determination...
Human rights...
Illegal borders...

I wonder what Putins next lie will be.


The prupose of this thread was to demonstrate that Putin once again changed story on Crimea. It is to point out that while pro Russians on this site that Putin is not living in the cold war and has stated he does not want to reinvent the soviet Union, the very fact of the matter is he does.

That is supported by his comment on Crimea and Ukraine.

whats the next sovereign country Putin is going to go after once he is done with Ukraine?

when that happens are you going to call out Putin for lying? Or will you support him for lying?
edit on 25-10-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2014 @ 12:43 PM
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originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs

I'll respect your wishes pal.
It's not my intention to derail the thread, merely to point out the massive contradiction the West is involved in!


Sure - we could also look at Syria. A lot of pro Russians constantly state Ukraine attacks and kills its own citizens yet they don't seem to have issues with Assad doing it.

I made the request because certain posters (not you) who cant refute facts will try and drag the debate off topic.





originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
You right that Putin has no proof it wasn't nefarious...
It's tit for tat, my word against yours kinda #, I just don't trust any of them!


Hence my comments where ive stated there is side A's version, side B's version and somewhere in the middle is the truth.




originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
Thanks for answering my question, well said too!

You took the time to raise some issues and I will take the time to give you a proper response.




originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
I'd agree 100%, except that he'd kill who he wants...
Everything else is spot on imo!

there is actually a list of individuals who have died / killed that have been linked directly back to Putin. Putin would kill his own mother if he could use it to spin and blame, so long as the outcome is in his favor.

I say this based on the number of lies Putin has told about why he invaded Ukraine.



posted on Oct, 25 2014 @ 12:44 PM
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a reply to: SurrenderingAmerica

The difference between my post and your post is I have backed mine up with facts and sources.

feel free to link your sources that supports your post.



posted on Oct, 25 2014 @ 01:18 PM
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I imagine Putin would not have had to do anything like this had the U.S not overthrown the Ukrainian government. Wish I had friends like Putin.

Still though, much like the U.S Russia does indeed do some very terrible things, especialy in Chechnya. As much as I condemn Americas illegal coups and invasions of other nations its pretty laughable Russia can take any sort of moral high ground.

Both nation states are as evil and corrupt as the other, like most nations sadly.
edit on 25-10-2014 by Dabrazzo because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2014 @ 02:00 PM
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a reply to: Dabrazzo

Except the Ukraine government was not overthrown.

The removal of Yanukovych was done per the Ukraine Constitution.
The Parliament that impeached him was elected in 2012 and that election was accepted by Russia as legitimate.
Yanukovych said he did not flee where as Putin has claimed, twice now, that Yanukovych fled.

Why is that distinction important?
Because if he fled, he automatically abandoned his office under Ukraine's constitution.

Finally Putin has given many lies about why he invaded Ukraine. The one im pointing out in this article is the one pro Russians have stated time and again was not possible - the borders of Ukraine are illegal by Putins house of magic and non logic.

Pro Russians stated continually that Putin's comment about the illegal collapse of the Soviet Union and Illegal borders were taken out of context and that Putin would not use that excuse.

Turns out they were wrong and instead of saying so, they launch personal attacks.
edit on 25-10-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2014 @ 02:21 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

So you see absolutely no correlation between Yanukovych’s refusal to accept EU trade agreements and harsh IMF economic reforms and his sudden impeachment?

This is an interesting quote from Carl Gershman, President of the National Endowment for Democracy.




“Ukraine’s choice to join Europe will accelerate the demise of the ideology of Russian imperialism that Putin represents. … Russians, too, face a choice, and Putin may find himself on the losing end not just in the near abroad but within Russia itself.”


The Washington Post, September 26, 2013

Sure thats all just a bit of a coincidence though eh?

Oh and there is also the small matter of the U.S handpicking the Ukrainian government that replaced Yanukovych. Again just another strange coincidence im sure.
edit on 25-10-2014 by Dabrazzo because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2014 @ 02:56 PM
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a reply to: Dabrazzo




So you see absolutely no correlation between Yanukovych’s refusal to accept EU trade agreements and harsh IMF economic reforms and his sudden impeachment?


His refusal came because Putin gave him the choice, and he seemingly made the wrong choice which is what led to the protests and subsequent leaving of Yanukovych.

Also it doesn't help when you steal money from the people. Here you may like this bit of reading...

www.newrepublic.com...



Oh and there is also the small matter of the U.S handpicking the Ukrainian government that replaced Yanukovych.


Except the fact that Ukraine voted for their president, and the parliament is the same one that was elected when Yanukovych was president, so I don't see how you can say the US hand picked the Ukraine government?



posted on Oct, 25 2014 @ 03:23 PM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h


His refusal came because Putin gave him the choice...


I do not understand what you mean.


so I don't see how you can say the US hand picked the Ukraine government? .


Remember the leaked Victoria Nuland call?

Just in case you do not, that was the call between between US Assistant Secretary of State[Nuland] and US Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt hand picking the Ukrainian government.




edit on 25-10-2014 by Dabrazzo because: (no reason given)

edit on 25-10-2014 by Dabrazzo because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2014 @ 03:32 PM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h




so I don't see how you can say the US hand picked the Ukraine government? .

Wow i am shocked at some whom are desperately attacking Russia without even knowing what there own government says after the facts.



Ah the newrepublic a news sources for the Republicans. Just like fox or the blaze.



posted on Oct, 25 2014 @ 05:06 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

You want proof about US involvement, here it is :

Soros Admits Responsibility for Coup and Mass Murder in Ukraine

Color revolution collaboration began soon after engineered fall of Soviet Union



George Soros told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria over the weekend he is responsible for establishing a foundation in Ukraine that ultimately contributed to the overthrow of the country’s elected leader and the installation of a junta handpicked by the State Department.

“First on Ukraine, one of the things that many people recognized about you was that you during the revolutions of 1989 funded a lot of dissident activities, civil society groups in eastern Europe and Poland, the Czech Republic. Are you doing similar things in Ukraine?” Zakaria asked Soros. “Well, I set up a foundation in Ukraine before Ukraine became independent of Russia. And the foundation has been functioning ever since and played an important part in events now,” Soros responded.

Source

This has been admitted as being real :

US response to leaked call confirms US/EU regime-change plot in Ukraine



Asked about the leaked video, US State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said, “I didn’t say it was inauthentic.

Source

Nuland-Pyatt leaked phone conversation

Source

And your excuse to not acknowledge the leaked Nuland-Pyatt tape is a sloppy Ukrainian fabricated tape :

Expert dissects Ukraine's MH17 'smoking gun'

Source

Company In Which Joe Biden's Son Is Director Prepares To Drill Shale Gas In East Ukraine



In a nutshell Ukraine (or rather its puppetmasters) has decided to let no crisis (staged or otherwise) or rather civil war, go to waste, and while the fighting rages all around, Ukrainian troopers are helping to install shale gas production equipment near the east Ukrainian town of Slavyansk, which was bombed and shelled for the three preceding months, according to local residents cited by Itar Tass. The reason for the scramble? Under peacetime, the process was expected to take many years, during which Europe would be under the energy dictatorship of Putin. But throw in some civil war and few will notice let alone care that a process which was expected to take nearly a decade if not longer while dealing with broad popular objections to fracking, may instead be completed in months!

Source

Why CIA Director Brennan Visited Kiev: In Ukraine The Covert War Has Begun



Ukraine is on the brink of civil war, Vladimir Putin has said, and he should know because the country is already in the midst of a covert intelligence war. Over the weekend, CIA director John Brennan travelled to Kiev, nobody knows exactly why, but some speculate that he intends to open US intelligence resources to Ukrainian leaders about real-time Russian military maneuvers.

So what kind of conversations did Brennan have during his visit? There’s no way of knowing for sure of course. But, according to my sources, and based on my experience of reporting on the Russian invasion of Georgia, the US-Ukraine information exchange would go a lot further than simply tracking numbers and motions of Russian tanks and soldiers. The operative term here is ‘non-lethal’ help – that remains Washington’s official position.

Source

John Kerry voices strong US support for Ukraine during Kiev visit – video

Source

US' Nuland treating Ukrainian protesters to cookies on Maidan

Source

Wikileak Cables: Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko in Washington's Pocket Since 2006



The evidence that the U.S. was behind the toppling of the Ukrainian government early this year is so overwhelming at this point that the subject really isn't up for debate, however initially it was unclear how the election of Petro Poroshenko fit in. The ecstatic response by Washington when he was declared the winner, and their unbending support in spite of his ongoing military assault against civilians in the east, made it clear that he was the chosen one, but the paper trail wasn't immediately obvious.

As it turns out, the evidence that Poroshenko is in the pocket of the U.S. State Department has been available all this time, you just had to know where to find it. In a classified diplomatic cable from 2006 released by Wikileaks.org, U.S. officials refer to Poroshenko as "Our Ukraine (OU) insider Petro Poroshenko".

A separate cable also released by Wikileaks makes it clear that the U.S. government was considered Poroshenko corrupt. "Poroshenko was tainted by credible corruption allegations, but wielded significant influence within OU; Poroshenko's price had to be paid."

The U.S. government knew Poroshenko was dirty, but he was influential, and arguably their most dependable mole.

Source

Ukraine's Choreographed Civil War, As Revealed By Wikileaks



Think the deadly events in a civil-war ridden Ukraine are proceeding unscripted, and without US supervision and/or direction? Think again.

Below is an excerpt from a formerly confidential memo, leaked by Wikileaks, and authored by former US ambassador to Russia, William J. Burns, to the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The punchline: the memo is dated February 1, 2008.


Ukraine and Georgia's NATO aspirations not only touch a raw nerve in Russia, they engender serious concerns about the consequences for stability in the region. Not only does Russia perceive encirclement, and efforts to undermine Russia's influence in the region, but it also fears unpredictable and uncontrolled consequences which would seriously affect Russian security interests. Experts tell us that Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene; a decision Russia does not want to have to face.

So, if Russia does "not want to face" said decision which could and has led to the violence and civil war that is now a daily staple of market-moving newsflow out of Eastern Europe, why not let the US state department force the decision upon Russia?

Source

But all these things work against your anti-Putin agenda so you just disregard them because with them you can`t blame it on Putin.



posted on Oct, 25 2014 @ 05:46 PM
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a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter




Wow i am shocked at some whom are desperately attacking Russia without even knowing what there own government says after the facts.


And exactly was it that you think they said?

Because they told you what happened, and they tried to help work something out before it got out of hand and we see what road Yanukovych took.

But of course you seem to hear something other than what is being said.



Ah the newrepublic a news sources for the Republicans. Just like fox or the blaze.


And they have a democrat running it...


The New Republic is led by its Publisher and Editor-in-Chief, Chris Hughes. A Facebook co-founder and digital campaign strategist for the 2008 Obama Campaign, Hughes purchased The New Republic in March, 2012 to help build a future for substantive journalism in a digital age.


www.newrepublic.com...

So you see had you have done your research you would see how silly your comments were.



posted on Oct, 25 2014 @ 05:54 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 




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