September 18th, Scotlands date with destiny...

a reply to: djz3ro

Why would there be an uprise in violence if Scotland votes no? That would presume that Scots are violent thugs that have no control over themselves, instead of normal every day people just like everyone else..........

Yes you could insert a typical joke here but really even they are just jokes, rather than reality.

I get quite annoyed at a lot of the independence stuff on both sides of the argument (the outpourings of enmity) but if anyone really got violent because of it then they aren't much benefit to any of us and frankly we would all be better off without anyone that thinks like that.

a reply to: ScepticScot



Well lets put it this way :-

If he were a used car salesman .... I wouldn't buy a car of him!

originally posted by: eletheia
a reply to: ScepticScot



Well lets put it this way :-

If he were a used car salesman .... I wouldn't buy a car of him!

What Politician would you by a used car from?...I heard Farage is selling a used light aircraft...couple of dings, might polish out.

originally posted by: Flavian
a reply to: djz3ro

Why would there be an uprise in violence if Scotland votes no? That would presume that Scots are violent thugs that have no control over themselves, instead of normal every day people just like everyone else..........

You don't think there are people who feel passionately enough about Scottish Independence (or remaining in the union for that matter) to turn militant?

a reply to: Flavian

I too get annoyed at the enmity, it is petty and trivial and says more about the poster's maturity and devalues their input.

I also see the possibility of violence in the future...that is if our duly elected government fails to fulfil our expectations, independence may be a difficult path.

Just recently I read some stuff by Tony Benn, sadly now deceased. He talked about the state within the state, which politicians call the crown and how the entrenched and established institutions really call the shots. Only the English people can change this and they never will. I despair at their plight.

In one fell swoop we can leave all that. It is not an abandonment of the English people, we are incidental really, if they want change then they have to call for it. This is an opportunity for real change for us. It is scary in a way but what is the alternative? There is no appetite for real change in Westminster in England...I mean real change.


If independence is achieved, on a personal and family level it will have, at least in the short term, a negative affect on my family. I don't know about the long term. However, I am not so trivial that I would let my own circumstances influence my choice.

Having said all that there is no doubt in my mind that Scotland will stay in the UK. It is frustrating.

originally posted by: djz3ro

originally posted by: Flavian
a reply to: djz3ro

Why would there be an uprise in violence if Scotland votes no? That would presume that Scots are violent thugs that have no control over themselves, instead of normal every day people just like everyone else..........

You don't think there are people who feel passionately enough about Scottish Independence (or remaining in the union for that matter) to turn militant?

That's a ridiculous notion. Did it happen after the last referendum when all the promises made if we remained in the UK were broken? No.

originally posted by: helldiver

That's a ridiculous notion. Did it happen after the last referendum when all the promises made if we remained in the UK were broken? No.

That is true. We don't have long to wait and find out if it's true anyway...

a reply to: alldaylong

From Said article:

local MP Alistair Carmichael noted that, in a tiny community where everyone knows everyone else’s business, this had been “the closest to a secret I’ve known in Shetland”

local MP calls it a secret, 34 years, just turns up, visits BP, yeah whatever.

Why is not the whole UK voting in the referendum? Don't the rest of the UK not have a say in this? If not, why not?

Will Britain still exist if Scotland leaves the UK?

If Scotland left the UK what would happen to the rest of the UK? What about Northern Ireland for example? The so-called Brits are all of Scottish descent?

Will the Scottish still be British?

Any ideas?

originally posted by: Jukiodone
a reply to: alldaylong

From Said article:

local MP Alistair Carmichael noted that, in a tiny community where everyone knows everyone else’s business, this had been “the closest to a secret I’ve known in Shetland”

local MP calls it a secret, 34 years, just turns up, visits BP, yeah whatever.

Well that's the first time i have know a " Secret Visit" being open the photo opportunities.



Secret my foot.

a reply to: midicon

We both know we could quote countless 'experts' supporting all sides of the argument - the only thing they agree on is that there is no definitive answer to the currency issue at present.

But never under-estimate the power of public opinion.
You, and many others, seem to believe that it is only Scottish opinion that matters, (of course that is true regarding the matter of independence itself), but rUK have a right to a say on the future of the currency of the United Kingdom - and for whatever reasons public opinion is passionately against any shared currency.

There seems to be so much disinformation being circulated about it all - and I really don't understand why Salmond and The Nats won't even consider or discuss a Plan B. It really makes him look like a bit of an amateur.
Nor do I understand why people who are so passionate about independence don't want their own currency which they have more or less sole control over.

a reply to: ispyed

We can leave whenever we want to...what if England wanted to leave...do you think anyone else would have a say? Although England can't leave really, they are the UK.
Scotland is a soveriegn nation and will decide it's own destiny...but it's nothing to do with anti English sentiment...although perhaps it is for some.

The rest of the UK will have a say in the mechanics of a split of course. Trust me the rest of the UK have had a say in it but you may notice a different tone from the Welsh or Irish. It seems as though for some reason or other the English have some sort of gripe that we would even consider it. Then of course if we happen to vote for it we were only fairweather friends after all.


It's all good.

a reply to: midicon

I also see the possibility of violence in the future...that is if our duly elected government fails to fulfil our expectations, independence may be a difficult path.

I wouldn't discount the possibility of isolated instances of violence etc but I can't see it being widespread.
However, I have absolutely no doubt that regardless of the outcome of the referendum there will be some bitter recriminations and more than just a few relationships requiring fixing.

Just recently I read some stuff by Tony Benn, sadly now deceased. He talked about the state within the state, which politicians call the crown and how the entrenched and established institutions really call the shots. Only the English people can change this and they never will. I despair at their plight.

It is hard to make many understand just how much control and power 'the establishment' truly have. Many believe that those who believe in such things are overly paranoid.
But the truth remains that there is an unholy alliance of people within the senior levels of the Civil Service, Police, Judiciary, Armed Forces, Politicians, Bankers etc who have a disproportionate level of control over the important issues that effect the UK.

But don't be under the impression that their control ceases at the border - they have as much control in Scotland as they do elsewhere in the UK.
Tony Blair / Gordon Brown and many others we could name are proof positive of this.
The 'establishment' have had more control in the last 20 years or so than in any other time since WWI - its a damning indictment of the UK as a whole.

Do you honestly believe independence will rid you of their influence?
If it does then there's every likelihood I'll be knocking on your door asking to come in - but I doubt it'll happen.

.....we are incidental really,

No you aren't, most definitely not.
I genuinely believe we are 'better together' and we have more chance of effecting real and positive change by remaining united.....but I understand why Scotland may see things differently.

..... if they want change then they have to call for it.

Can't disagree with you there....but the voice for real change is growing.

This is an opportunity for real change for us. It is scary in a way but what is the alternative?

United we stand and all that.

There is no appetite for real change in Westminster in England...I mean real change.

Yes there is, and its growing stronger by the day.
But what we need is a strong and unifying character who has the passion and strength to invigorate the British people - where 'he' is going to come from I have no idea.

If independence is achieved, on a personal and family level it will have, at least in the short term, a negative affect on my family. I don't know about the long term. However, I am not so trivial that I would let my own circumstances influence my choice.

You can always come down here and raid our food banks that are thriving in the North East.

Having said all that there is no doubt in my mind that Scotland will stay in the UK.

I hope it does - but for the right reasons.

It is frustrating.

I can well imagine.

a reply to: Freeborn

Well I can't disagree. If the political system were set up the way you envisage Freeborn the question of independence would be a non starter.

I don't underestimate the power of public opinion. Don't forget I think keeping the currency is a bad idea, although it's probably workable. It is the bankers and the Bank of England that will decide really. We will have Cameron with his sensible head on and the usual spinning and swaying of public opinion. Isn't it mad...they have us convinced we need it...it is a fear tactic and a lie because the reassurance of keeping the pound might allay those that fear losing it.

Salmond has blown it for we scots. You saw his performance. It was the usual political nonsense, I expected more.

I like the English people...well I like people. I was a runaway as a kid and I fled to London. Stayed for two years and even the cops were nice. In fact I only returned to get away from some Scottish elements in my immediate environment.

I have stayed in various parts of England and have always found people welcoming.

Regards midicon.

a reply to: midicon

Well I can't disagree. If the political system were set up the way you envisage Freeborn the question of independence would be a non starter.

The problem is that any alternative government and electoral systems are immediately demonised by MSM etc and the vast majority are hoodwinked into believing the current system is the best.
Proponents of alternative systems are portrayed as cranks.

As for the currency - regardless of feasibility and the rights and wrongs of maintaining Sterling, why would an independent nation want to be tied to something it has zero say or control over?
I understand your point about allaying fears etc - but that's no foundation for a newly independent country.

Salmond has blown it for we scots. You saw his performance. It was the usual political nonsense, I expected more.

Makes you wonder if he really wants independence?
Where would that leave King Alex in a post-independent Scotland - I doubt the Scots will elect SNP.
Has Devo-Max been his aim all along?

I like the English people...

I like some of them - we have at least our fair share of arseholes.

.....well I like people. I was a runaway as a kid and I fled to London. Stayed for two years and even the cops were nice. In fact

People are people the world over and tend to have the same cares and concerns.

I don't particularly like London - except Camden Town which I love, great place and great people.

I have stayed in various parts of England and have always found people welcoming.

If your ever in the North East give me a shout and hopefully we'll have a 'few' beers and a bit of craic.

originally posted by: ispyed
Why is not the whole UK voting in the referendum? Don't the rest of the UK not have a say in this? If not, why not?

Will Britain still exist if Scotland leaves the UK?

If Scotland left the UK what would happen to the rest of the UK? What about Northern Ireland for example? The so-called Brits are all of Scottish descent?

Will the Scottish still be British?

Any ideas?

It's a Scottish vote because it's a Scottish decision.

The Union was formed when two separate countries (though with the same monarch) both agreed to combine administratively. If one of those countries chooses to withdraw, that's entirely up to them.

This is not a master/slave relationship, it's essentially a marriage between two equal consenting parties. Now one party is considering filing for divorce. Why should the wife need to ask the husband for permission to divorce? Why should Scotland need to ask England for permission to walk away from the Union?

Also, Wales and Northern Ireland are not countries. Wales is a principality and Northern Ireland is a province. The "Union" part of "United Kingdom" is between England and Scotland; Wales and Northern Island are simply subsidiaries of England.

There will be some resistance to Scotland joining the EU. For a start there is a concern that it will set a precedent for other regions to fight for independence - Catalonia is also looking to hold a vote for independence from Spain, for example. There is also (whether rightly or wrongly) a stereotypical view of Scotland as being a net drain on resources. Others could probably comment better on whether that view is accurate.

a reply to: Freeborn

Do you honestly believe independence will rid you of their influence?

They may have less power and this is a bit of a goldfish bowl up here. I think they would be more accountable. I am not political at all, I voted for the first time in the European elections and chose UKIP. Not that I care about them in any way shape or form. I am all about transparent and accountable governance.

Trust me Freeborn the independence thing is not going to happen. I speak to everyone and the no supporters are the norm. If however the vote is close there may be a few negative reactions but it will all die down and be business as usual. We won't be able to moan about the English any more...you can just say...well you voted for it!


It's all good.

originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: Flavian

I too get annoyed at the enmity, it is petty and trivial and says more about the poster's maturity and devalues their input.

I also see the possibility of violence in the future...that is if our duly elected government fails to fulfil our expectations, independence may be a difficult path.

Just recently I read some stuff by Tony Benn, sadly now deceased. He talked about the state within the state, which politicians call the crown and how the entrenched and established institutions really call the shots. Only the English people can change this and they never will. I despair at their plight.

In one fell swoop we can leave all that. It is not an abandonment of the English people, we are incidental really, if they want change then they have to call for it. This is an opportunity for real change for us. It is scary in a way but what is the alternative? There is no appetite for real change in Westminster in England...I mean real change.


If independence is achieved, on a personal and family level it will have, at least in the short term, a negative affect on my family. I don't know about the long term. However, I am not so trivial that I would let my own circumstances influence my choice.

Having said all that there is no doubt in my mind that Scotland will stay in the UK. It is frustrating.

So, you know Tony Blair was born in Edinburgh, yeah, you know Gordon Brown is Scottish, right? So, keep blaming all the English people as much as you want but sooner or later, face the facts please?

a reply to: uncommitted

I'm not blaming the English people for anything at all. It is not about nationality it's about the whole set up in Westminster. The English people will still have to deal with that lot. It's not about blame but a hope for change.

I dislike Brown and Blair as much as you do.

a reply to: Cruithneach

Edinburgh born Tony Blair (does that make him Scots?) swept into office

of a somewhat healthy British economy to the tune of "Things can only

get better." He left 13 years later (or should I say slipped away) leaving

an economy that was nearly akin to the depression of the 1930's ...but

for HIM things were certainly only getting better ....

From a small house in the small ex. mining district of Sedgefield Co.Durham,

He is now a multi millionaire with a portfolio of expensive houses in London

and the south.


I'm curious as to the signature tune Alex Salmond has reserved for his

inauguration!? Any bets?


OIL Has never benefitted the 'ordinary' man in the street. It benefits

Sheikdoms, land owners, and big business oil companies. The 'ordinary people'

of these oil rich countries are dirt poor.
Could be a case for, Be careful what you wish for ....