September 18th, Scotlands date with destiny...

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
The Thatcher era was a Major turning point for me to really find a reason to Hate London and with that came Hating Parliament, the house of Lords and all it stands for.

I do like the irony of the Scots "hating" Thatcher...The SNP supported the vote of no confidence in Callaghans Government, which passed by a single vote, causing his downfall and triggering the election which led to Thatcher getting in....

Had the SNP not voted in favour, then we'd never had had a Thatcher Government....

Just an interesting little bit of history for you there...

As for being "ruled by a foreign nation", how do you think the rest of us feel about the amount of Scottish PM's we've had, including the last two who led us into the Wars everyone hates and bankrupted the nation causing the austerity everyone hates?

Not to mention the fact the only reason we have Tuition fee's in England is because of a Scottish PM going back on his manifesto pledge, then using Scottish Labour MP's to pass the Bill which only affected England....

Damn it, I knew I'd get sucked in.........

a reply to: stumason
Totally a̶g̶r̶e̶e̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ understand your points regarding the Scottish MP's voting on the tuition fees in a solely English issue...don't hear many Scots whinging about that injustice do you...ah that's right, it didn't affect their kids so they didn't care.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: stumason
Totally agree with the Scottish MP's voting on the tuition fees in a solely English issue...don't hear many Scots whinging about that injustice do you...ah that's right, it didn't affect their kids so they didn't care.

These are reasons The English Voter and only the English voter needs to take care of. instead of whinging about it why dont/didn't you do something about it.
We have a chance to change the way things work...Why doesn't England...Maybe it's the English man's problem only he can fix.

Another one i've heard. If Scotland gets it's Independence they would be condemning the English to Tory rule for an eternity...Well, that's the Englishman's Problem...Just vote them out...see how easy it is.

if the eternally Lazy got off their collective Arses and turned up to place that X in the box, maybe just maybe the Tories would never ever again get into power. But then again..Maybe The English quite Like a Right Wing Government even the ones who dont bother to vote.... It certainly looks that way to me.

Right wing beliefs value tradition, they are about equity, survival of the fittest, and they believe in economic freedom. They typically believe that business shouldn’t be regulated, and that we should all look after ourselves. Right wing people tend believe they shouldn’t have to pay for someone else’s education or health service. They believe in freedom to succeed over equality.."

Everything i'm against.^^^^

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
These are reasons The English Voter and only the English voter needs to take care of. instead of whinging about it why dont/didn't you do something about it.
We have a chance to change the way things work...Why doesn't England...Maybe it's the English man's problem only he can fix.

You know full well why - because whenever the West Lothian question was brought up, it was ignored, with Government Ministers, such as the Scottish Lord Chancellor, Lord Irvine, saying:

"The best answer to the West Lothian question is not to ask it at all"

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
Another one i've heard. If Scotland gets it's Independence they would be condemning the English to Tory rule for an eternity...Well, that's the Englishman's Problem...Just vote them out...see how easy it is.

Indeed and I've never really seen an issue with this, as the bulk of England does actually vote for Conservatives. If the mood changes, someone else will win. If Labour was truly the party everyone wanted, they wouldn't have to rely on Scottish votes - this is only a complaint I hear from Labour - or anti-Tory - posters.

a reply to: Soloprotocol
So you are happy that Scottish MP's can make vote on solely English issues when English MP's have no influence over similarly Scottish only affairs?
Hmm, for that reason alone I shall be glad if you vote Yes as a nation.
We will do OK without you, that is for sure, and no more whinging to listen to. Win win either way, as if/when you vote to stay with us you will have to accept the view of the Scottish people and negotiate a continuing union with the rest of us.

originally posted by: stumason

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
The Thatcher era was a Major turning point for me to really find a reason to Hate London and with that came Hating Parliament, the house of Lords and all it stands for.

I do like the irony of the Scots "hating" Thatcher...The SNP supported the vote of no confidence in Callaghans Government, which passed by a single vote, causing his downfall and triggering the election which led to Thatcher getting in....

Had the SNP not voted in favour, then we'd never had had a Thatcher Government....

Just an interesting little bit of history for you there...

As for being "ruled by a foreign nation", how do you think the rest of us feel about the amount of Scottish PM's we've had, including the last two who led us into the Wars everyone hates and bankrupted the nation causing the austerity everyone hates?

Not to mention the fact the only reason we have Tuition fee's in England is because of a Scottish PM going back on his manifesto pledge, then using Scottish Labour MP's to pass the Bill which only affected England....

Damn it, I knew I'd get sucked in.........

Come on man, thats a bollixed version of events. Play fair now:

wingsoverscotland.com...

a reply to: grainofsand

TextSo you are happy that Scottish MP's can make vote on solely English issues when English MP's have no influence over similarly Scottish only affairs?

I'm Neither Happy nor Sad...why would i be, it doesn't really effect me...it's The Englishmans problem so fix it and stop whinging....

See, this Whinging thing seems to be infectious and without Borders. Maybe even a plague worse than Ebola.

a reply to: Soloprotocol
Haha true!
I will honestly be glad to get it over with though so we can all move on...as housemates, or friendly neighbours, I'm easy either way.

a reply to: grainofsand

for that reason alone I shall be glad if you vote Yes as a nation. We will do OK without you, that is for sure,

I hope you do OK, even with the 90% drop in Oil and Gas revenue dent that will have to factored into the equation, but do not fret.. your chief book keeper Gideot Osbourne has it all under control.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: Soloprotocol
Haha true!

I will honestly be glad to get it over with though so we can all move on...as housemates, or friendly neighbours, I'm easy either way.

Me too, I'm actually sick of it, but for some reason i like to rant about it.. Just letting off steam, the Cat thanks the internet.

a reply to: Soloprotocol
Ranting on tinterwebs is as useful for stopping blokes beating each other up as 'winner stays on' playing pool in a pub is
This historic Scottish vote will definitely change the UK for the future, regardless of the result.
The vote just in itself is a good thing, and I wish all of us the best.

YouGov's latest Scottish independence figures for the Sun, using an updated methodology, are YES at 35% (no change) and NO at 55% (+1)

yougov.co.uk...

I don't think the latest rounds of discussions relative to Stirling has helped convince voters to vote yes.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

Right wing beliefs value tradition, they are about equity, survival of the fittest, and they believe in economic freedom. They typically believe that business shouldn’t be regulated, and that we should all look after ourselves. Right wing people tend believe they shouldn’t have to pay for someone else’s education or health service. They believe in freedom to succeed over equality.."

Wow. The party that puts just that in their election manifesto and nothing else, will have my vote from now to eternity.

You've misunderstood it a bit though. It's not that we don't want to pay, but we don't want you lot to force us to pay. Plenty of people who would agree with that statement will still willingly give time or money to charities or churches that are going out and providing for the poor. It's for the community to provide, not the taxpayer getting mugged by the government in order to redistribute the wealth.

What we don't want is people taking our wallets at the metaphorical point of a gun without us having any say in the matter. Or, as we like to call it, "the Scottish Parliament".

A lot of people also gloss over the fact that Scotland doesn't depend on the whims of England. Their Parliament already passes its own legislation in relation to agriculture, fisheries and forestry, economic development, education, environment, food standards, health, home affairs, Scots law – courts, police and fire services, local government, sport and the arts, transport, training, tourism, research and statistics and social work... the list goes on.

NHS problems? Scotland is already in charge of that, not England. Economic development? Already Scottish responsibility. Education? Nothing to do with England, all under the control of Scotland.

England just writes the cheques. Remember that if the SNP starts telling you how they have all these wonderful plans for when they are free from Westminster. They're already free, so why haven't they put those plans into action yet?

originally posted by: EvillerBob

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

Right wing beliefs value tradition, they are about equity, survival of the fittest, and they believe in economic freedom. They typically believe that business shouldn’t be regulated, and that we should all look after ourselves. Right wing people tend believe they shouldn’t have to pay for someone else’s education or health service. They believe in freedom to succeed over equality.."

NHS problems? Scotland is already in charge of that, not England. Economic development? Already Scottish responsibility. Education? Nothing to do with England, all under the control of Scotland.

England just writes the cheques. Remember that if the SNP starts telling you how they have all these wonderful plans for when they are free from Westminster. They're already free, so why haven't they put those plans into action yet?

Good point that, "England just writes the cheques...".

You make it sound like blank cheques though. How Scotland spends it is the real point and it gets spent pretty damn well, as you hint at.

Independence = 100% control of our fiscal policy. At the moment Scotland controls 7% of taxes raised.

Free from Westminster?? You're kidding right?

As someone in their mid-twenties who is of Irish decent i would wish for the average joe on Scotland to wake up and smell the coffee. The English oppressed the Irish just as much as the Scottish and the only reason we dont entirely loath them is because many Irish people migrated from Ireland to escape the damn english and build a better life elsewhere. That being said, the Scottish MUST realise simply this:

Your politician's will no better than ours.

Your politicians are greedy and selfish. If you become independent they will have more power to cut better deal's for themselves in the backroom's of the Scottish parliament - Just like the English politicians do now. You wont benefit. Im not trying to scare anyone, im just pointing out the facts. Go to any country that has got independence in the last 50 years - Corrupt, corrupt, corrupt. This is not about Scottish people making the brave William Wallaces dream come true, This is about your current politicians obtaining more power to cut better deals for themselves. You might get a few scraps.

So stick with the current politicians you have. Either way, you're getting screwed like the rest of us.

a reply to: SearchLightsInc
That would explain the mass rush of countries that have gained independence rushing back to Westminster's loving embrace.
You will get corrupt politicians everywhere however they are only as corrupt as the system lets then be. At Westminster that is very.
I have no problem with people opposing independence if they believe staying in the UK is better. However the idea that we should just put up with the current system and all its many faults because people don't believe it is possible to change fir the better is just ridiculous. If that was true we would all still be serfs living under absoulute monarchs.
Oh and the only people who ever mention William Wallace are pro union.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: SearchLightsInc
That would explain the mass rush of countries that have gained independence rushing back to Westminster's loving embrace.
You will get corrupt politicians everywhere however they are only as corrupt as the system lets then be. At Westminster that is very.
I have no problem with people opposing independence if they believe staying in the UK is better. However the idea that we should just put up with the current system and all its many faults because people don't believe it is possible to change fir the better is just ridiculous. If that was true we would all still be serfs living under absoulute monarchs.
Oh and the only people who ever mention William Wallace are pro union.

But we are practically serfs...
By all mean's run off into the sunset with your newly gained independence but remember that your country will still be governed by human's, the type that will be motivated by power and greed. Westminster should be shut down for how corrupt it is. Its just naive to assume that things will be different if your governed by scots. If you join the EU then you'd be their bi*ch and the cycle continues????

a reply to: SearchLightsInc

As someone in their mid-twenties who is of Irish decent.....

I'm a 48 year old Englishman whose 4 grandparents were ALL Irish by birth - but where's the relevance of that?

Just curious as to your nationality.
Do you actually know any real Scots?
Have you ever actually been to Scotland?

..... i would wish for the average joe on Scotland to wake up and smell the coffee.

And people accuse the English of arrogance.

The English oppressed the Irish just as much as the Scottish

Ireland has nothing to do with Scottish independence - unless you want to stir up all the sectarian bigotry, hatred and bollocks.

And to imply that Scotland is 'oppressed' is a lie and as much an insult to Scotland and its people as it is to the English.
Scotland has been a FULL and EQUAL partner since its inception - they are now having the debate and opportunity to decide if they see a better future for themselves as an independent nation or whether to remain within the Union, probably with even more devolved power.
They are NOT a subjugated nation and to suggest such displays an ignorance of both the history and the current state of affairs.

and the only reason we dont entirely loath them is because many Irish people migrated from Ireland to escape the damn english and build a better life elsewhere.

Quite ironically many migrated to England itself and to live and prosper amongst those very same 'damn English'.

Your politician's will no better than ours.

Agree with you there.
All cut from the very same cloth.

Go to any country that has got independence....

This isn't about Scotland 'getting' or 'gaining' independence, they've never been denied it - its about them CHOOSING independence, a subtle but massive difference.
I sincerely hope you can see that?

This is not about Scottish people making the brave William Wallaces dream come true,....

Sorry, the moment anyone even mentions William Wallace and the Braveheart nonsense my eyes roll as credibility goes out the window.

....This is about your current politicians obtaining more power to cut better deals for themselves. You might get a few scraps.

I agree....but here's the thing; I understand it when people say things like 'this is our opportunity to start afresh and demand standards and levels of responsibility of our representatives that is currently denied us', and if I was Scottish I'd be severely tempted to believe that - I just personally think we have a better chance of achieving that by remaining together.

Ultimately that's all irrelevant - Scotland will do as Scotland see's fit, which is right.
But that decision will be made and respected because of the freedoms they have within this Union and not as an oppressed people as some ignorantly believe.

a reply to: SearchLightsInc
By that logic Sweden would be no more democratic than Egypt. Or Canada no less corrupt than Somalia.
Systems matter, democratic accountability is important.

a reply to: Freeborn
Excellent answer! Obviously disagree on the issue of independence but still an excellent answer to an ill informed post.