MH17 Black Box Data Shows Evidence Of Missile Strike

originally posted by: DonVoigt
a reply to: Xcathdra

You do realize that black box data can't determine who shot the missle , whether it came from the Ukrainian army or the rebels our Russia, or if it was fired from the ground our from the air as some have suggested. There is no valuable information that could possibly come from the black box unless one of the pilots saw it coming and said into their microphone,"there's a missle coming straight at us" , and even if that was in there there is no way to determine who fired it. Unless the U.S. government is releasing satellite imagery as irrefutable proof of who fired the missle there is no way to determine anything, and with all this wonderful technology the government has why haven't they released satellite imagery of the event? At this point anything that is said is all speculation.

Ok smart guy

a reply to: MysterX

Putin has already repeatedly expressed a desire for the investigators to expedite things and get on with a thorough inspection and investigation, so it would make sense that he would be more than happy to intercede and help to arrange assured safety for them and their teams, and might even, if acceptable to other parties, allow a relatively small contingent of Russian troops to act as escorts and negotiators.

Well then all he has to do is give his separatist cronies a call and tell them to let them through, but if that happens he runs the risk of evidence that hasn't already been removed coming back to him, and he can't have that happen now can he?

So once the incriminating evidence is gone only then will they be able to do their jobs.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: MysterX

So now, because they don't want to risk being shot, bombed, or hit by artillery they're "un-investigators" huh?

Yes, let's invite Putin in to the region. I'm sure he'll be happy to have troops in the region to secure the scene for the investigation.

No, they're stalling...that's what they are. And the opposite of investigating is? There isn't a word for it afaik.

I'm biased in as much as i don't want the world to descend into conflict and chaos because not enough was said or done to prevent it if at all possible...from a selfish point of view, i'd prefer my children to have skin on their bodies instead of pooling, melted and rendered, around what is left of their ankles in the event of an escalation in violence because of ignorance and pontificating, when there ought to be dialogue and investigation.

Aren't investigators supposed to travel to remote, dangerous and often very difficult locations to carry out their jobs?

I bet if i searched for 5 or 10 minutes, i could dig up many examples of investigators travelling to war zones or otherwise 'hot zones'.

But when the US, Ukraine, Europe and Russia are locking rhetorical horns and are accusing everyone in sight, the truth that would end the debates is not being sought by those who's sole reason for being in Kiev is to find these truths and investigate!

So if that's what you mean by 'biased much', sure - guilty as charged.

Putin has repeatedly requested the investigation, but that isn't happening. He obviously has nothing to hide here, but curiously the most vocal and accusatory in this disaster are the least vocal in calling for urgency in investigating it.

If you can't see what's wrong with that picture, i doubt anything i say to you will change your mind.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Many times it isn't released until a couple of weeks after decoding and analysis.

Under normal circumstances perhaps not, but these are extraordinary circumstances involving hook or by crook many, apparently agitated nations...many agitated and heavily armed nations.

One would imagine if there was anything significant on that voice data, especially if it supports the US assertions, that normal investigations etiquette concerning release of information would be more accommodating, considering the tense situation...that either means the situation isn't as serious as it first appears or perhaps the voices data does not in fact, reinforce the US assertions of the guilty, and may in fact prove the guilty parties to be an ally...i'd imagine 3 weeks or so could enable quite a lot of tinkering.

What takes so long?

We're talking about voice data, instantly available to those who are listening to it...why would 3 weeks be required to listen to the crucial 10 minutes of voice...

a reply to: MysterX

Not to the middle of war zones. Remote areas, difficult to reach areas, not areas where a bomb might drop on your head.

a reply to: MysterX

So wait, first you are complaining that they're not doing their job, because they're not at an unsecured crash scene, with fighting going on around it, and now you're complaining because they haven't compromised the investigation by releasing data that hasn't been fully analyzed?

It can take a week or more to decode a voice recorder. You have to listen to it, figure out what they said, have other people listen to it to make sure that what you heard is what they said, then you have to listen to it to hear any odd noises in the background like alarms, or bangs, or anything like that. And if the memory is damaged, it's even harder. It's not "instantly available".

Defiantly a missile strike if you ask me. Now who fired the missile is another question.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Bassago

Of course we need more evidence...

Its a good thing Pro Russian rebels are currently destroying the Crime scene.

And how do I love you guys constantly stating the US wants war with Russia. We have Obama in office... The chances of us doing anything other than a drone strike are non existent. Secondly, based on Russian actions, its very apparent they are the ones wanting war so Putin can relive the 1980's.

Russia is involved militarily - directly now.
The US is not.

A bankrupt USA is surviving on wars. Many of USA's pals like UK and Italy are bankrupt too.

There is nothing to see here.

Obama is rubber stamp of NWO masters.

a reply to: Zaphod58

There is 0% possibility of any fair investigation report of MH17. There will be a report - highly political and biased.

Even Malaysia may have trouble accepting the report when it comes out. We shall see.

a reply to: GargIndia

None of which has anything to do with my post or the thread topic.

Anything on MH17?

originally posted by: GargIndia
a reply to: Zaphod58

There is 0% possibility of any fair investigation report of MH17. There will be a report - highly political and biased.

Even Malaysia may have trouble accepting the report when it comes out. We shall see.

Are you trying to get in front of the curve on the off chance the investigation determines Rebels / Russia are responsible by dismissing it now?

I ask because we just went through this with Russia / Russia supporters demanding the US support its claim by releasing the information and when the US did things shifted to another one of those false info tangent.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: GargIndia
a reply to: Zaphod58

There is 0% possibility of any fair investigation report of MH17. There will be a report - highly political and biased.

Even Malaysia may have trouble accepting the report when it comes out. We shall see.

Are you trying to get in front of the curve on the off chance the investigation determines Rebels / Russia are responsible by dismissing it now?

I ask because we just went through this with Russia / Russia supporters demanding the US support its claim by releasing the information and when the US did things shifted to another one of those false info tangent.

Did you expect anything less? Many on ATS had their minds made up already, and Putin coming forward saying he ordered the attack personally would be dismissed as the NWO threatening him and making him say it.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: MysterX

So wait, first you are complaining that they're not doing their job, because they're not at an unsecured crash scene, with fighting going on around it, and now you're complaining because they haven't compromised the investigation by releasing data that hasn't been fully analyzed?

It can take a week or more to decode a voice recorder. You have to listen to it, figure out what they said, have other people listen to it to make sure that what you heard is what they said, then you have to listen to it to hear any odd noises in the background like alarms, or bangs, or anything like that. And if the memory is damaged, it's even harder. It's not "instantly available".

Many hands make light work doesn't it?

Duplicate everything, pre analysis, distribute copies to ALL concerned parties and they can all analyse the data at the same time and probably arrive at a conclusion much faster.

How does releasing pure data to be given to all of the interested parties, especially those being accused of a terrible crime, 'compromise' an analysis of that pure data?

If the data is kept only in the hands of those who have a vested interest in the data showing what they'd prefer to find on it, that in itself compromises the data. It also compromises the findings, if any, contained within those data as accusations of tampering and skilful digital alteration of it will undoubtedly ensue.

Besides, the work will be faster and the results will be obtained in a more timely manner...which is what everyone wants, or at least claim they want.

a reply to: MysterX

Russia does not seem to share your view.

RT - Lavrov: Russia won’t take control of Malaysian plane’s black boxes

Moscow has no plans to seize the flight recorders from the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, which crashed in eastern Ukraine on Thursday, Sergey Lavrov, Russia’s foreign minister, told Rossiya 24 channel.

The seizure of flight records would violate international law as it’s up to relevant international agencies to investigate of the incident, he explained.

The analysis of the flight recorders “is the responsibility of ICAO [International Civil Aviation Organization]; it’s the responsibility of those states which have the most direct connection to this tragedy – the Netherlands, Malaysia and the states whose citizens were on board, and of course Ukraine,” Lavrov said.

The minister also called on the UN Security Council to urgently launch an open and impartial investigation into the plane crash in Ukraine.

“We want international experts to arrive on the crash site as soon as possible and retrieve the flight recorders in an instant," the FM stressed. “Despite statements coming from Kiev, we have no plans to seize the flight recorders.”

Click link for remainder of article.

As for the vested interest comment.

International law allows nations who have a significant interest in the crash (Nation where flight departed from, nation where flight is bound for, the entity who owns the aircraft, the entity who constructed the aircraft, etc etc.

All of those parties can take part in the investigation however the primary jurisdiction can set ground rules.

Apparently Russia is doing the same thing I pointed out a few posts up. The latest UN report did not put Russia in a good light and they are not happy about it.

RT - Moscow: UN report on Ukraine distorts facts to justify punitive operation

he latest report on the situation in Ukraine by the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights is not objective and is hypocritical, the official representative of Russia’s Foreign Ministry, Aleksandr Lukashevich, stated.

Lukashevich said the Foreign Ministry has “carefully studied the latest, already the fourth, report published by the Office of UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, based on the information prepared by the UN monitoring mission.”

Click link for remainder of article.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: GargIndia

None of which has anything to do with my post or the thread topic.

Anything on MH17?

Well...of course it is pertinent to MH17 and whether or not this is a deliberate attempt at (another) US inspired frame up so as to lead to more war, and more war keeps the US war machine in business...so yeah, it is relevant to what might have been the reasons behind what happened to MH17, anyone who has been following events such as this will at least have considered this as a pretty good motive for killing MH17 and all on board and framing others who could then become direct targets or targets by proxy, after arming their opposition.

Remember Syria and the 'thrice attempted chemical frame up' of Assad and the Syrian Army?

Remember Obama's red line and the US gnashing at the bit for a bombing campaign there, even before an investigation had been carried out? Which ultimately showed Assad and the regular Syrian Army were actually not responsible for those manufactured attacks after all.

Remember how the US is arming terrorists in the ME, and then claiming Americans are losing their rights so the government can keep them safe from terrorists, and losing vast quantities of their tax money to fight those terrorists in the so-called 'war on terror'?

See how that has turned out for the world in Iraq and elsewhere?

And now compare those events and how lightening quick Obama and his gang were to point the finger at 'another target' for the US military industrial complex supply machine, to how quick Obama has been doing the same over this latest atrocity, also without any investigation and also lightening quick to point the finger at not one, but two different sets would be perps.

Add in Kiev, the president publicly expressing his unabashed glee over the fact the US was blaming the Russians, despite no evidence and no investigation being carried out, which is so eerily similar to the Syrian false flag events, that the rhetoric from both occasions could almost be cut and pasted and reused for MH17.

Further add that Russia and the Patriot Ukrainians have both expressed an urgent desire for international investigators to investigate and discover the cause of this crash, all of which has fallen of apparently deaf ears, while reporters, from around the globe have been safely visiting the crash site and doing their jobs since the plane first came down, yet still no sign of any urgency in the investigators actually doing their jobs and investigating.

Russia have all but demanded an investigation take place to determine who is responsible, yet the US and Kiev are particularly quiet and are not insisting an investigation is expedited...why would that be? Why did Obama claim he has clear evidence first the Russians were responsible, but refused to show that 'evidence', then Obama backtracked and turned to accuse the Patriots, again with clear evidence which nobody is allowed to see...a carbon copy of the Syria debacle.

Anyone with half a brain can see a clear picture emerging here. They should, we've all seen it before and i'm certain we will see it again.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Russia stating that they do not want to 'take control of' and that they 'will not seize' the data recorders is a completely different kettle of fish than saying they do not wish to be party to investigating the data contained on them.

Completely different in fact.

It's as different as saying 'i will not steal your ice cream cone, but sure, if you offer me a lick or two, i'm up for it'.

Two different things.

Those being accused of mass murder have a significant interest in receiving the data, just as an individual accused of a crime has the legal and moral right to both see and examine the evidence being used to accuse him or her.

originally posted by: MysterX
How does releasing pure data to be given to all of the interested parties, especially those being accused of a terrible crime, 'compromise' an analysis of that pure data?

Can you show me where the people doing the investigation have accused anyone of anything?

If the data is kept only in the hands of those who have a vested interest in the data showing what they'd prefer to find on it, that in itself compromises the data. It also compromises the findings, if any, contained within those data as accusations of tampering and skilful digital alteration of it will undoubtedly ensue.

Can you tell me what vested interest the investigators have?

originally posted by: MysterX
a reply to: Xcathdra

Russia stating that they do not want to 'take control of' and that they 'will not seize' the data recorders is a completely different kettle of fish than saying they do not wish to be party to investigating the data contained on them.

Completely different in fact.

It's as different as saying 'i will not steal your ice cream cone, but sure, if you offer me a lick or two, i'm up for it'.

Two different things.

Conveniently your eyes skipped over this part ..

The analysis of the flight recorders “is the responsibility of ICAO [International Civil Aviation Organization]; it’s the responsibility of those states which have the most direct connection to this tragedy – the Netherlands, Malaysia and the states whose citizens were on board, and of course Ukraine,” Lavrov said.

How does that pertain to Russia? If they believe they should be participants, who did they ask and when?

a reply to: MysterX

His comments have nothing to do with this thread / topic.

* - Bankrupt - Show me where the US filed for bankruptcy.
* - Italy and the UK have not filed for bankruptcy.
* - Aside from the usual paranoia I don't see how Obama and NWO are part of the discussion.

As for your investigation comment - There is one in progress by international experts. Ukraine has the lead because it was shot down over their territory and the Dutch are heavily involved due to the number of citizens they lost.

The satellite images were released by the US. Some people dismissed them for their own reasons so to each their own.

The investigators were having issues getting to the site due to heavy fighting in the area. The Dutch and Australia have discussed sending in a military contingent to secure the scene for the investigators however im not sure they approved it, I am not sure if Ukraine approved it either.

I find it funny Russia demands a speedy investigation when pro Russian rebels spent 4 days destroying the crimescene. There was no sense of urgency by Russia on that front.

So yeah, anyone with half a brain can see a clear picture emerging here.