MH17 Black Box Data Shows Evidence Of Missile Strike

originally posted by: MysterX
Those being accused of mass murder have a significant interest in receiving the data, just as an individual accused of a crime has the legal and moral right to both see and examine the evidence being used to accuse him or her.

Sure - in a court of law and not a court of public opinion.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

You know as well as i do what those vested interests are, and the investigators are going to be subject to the whims and will of their respective governments, like it or not.

The investigators will do and say what they are ordered to do and say by their intelligence agencies and their superiors.

If this does turn out to be a set up ala false flag, and you believe in such a situation they won't be subject to such manoeuvrings, you are only fooling yourself.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: MysterX
Those being accused of mass murder have a significant interest in receiving the data, just as an individual accused of a crime has the legal and moral right to both see and examine the evidence being used to accuse him or her.

Sure - in a court of law and not a court of public opinion.

You dismiss the moral right to challenge accusers and have equal access to information that would clear or condemn you because this isn't taking place in some court room?

That's very weak. If the accusation is sound and based on truth and valid evidence, and no tampering of that evidence is in the offing, then there is no legal or moral argument existing to deny the sharing of such evidence - should it exist.

Unless of course, there is zero confidence in the evidence in the first place and it's all just so much hot air...again.

originally posted by: MysterX
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

You know as well as i do what those vested interests are, and the investigators are going to be subject to the whims and will of their respective governments, like it or not.

The investigators will do and say what they are ordered to do and say by their intelligence agencies and their superiors.

If this does turn out to be a set up ala false flag, and you believe in such a situation they won't be subject to such manoeuvrings, you are only fooling yourself.

Shrug, impossible to debate someone who says the facts don't matter because the side I don't like is wrong.

originally posted by: MysterX

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: MysterX
Those being accused of mass murder have a significant interest in receiving the data, just as an individual accused of a crime has the legal and moral right to both see and examine the evidence being used to accuse him or her.

Sure - in a court of law and not a court of public opinion.

You dismiss the moral right to challenge accusers and have equal access to information that would clear or condemn you because this isn't taking place in some court room?

That's very weak. If the accusation is sound and based on truth and valid evidence, and no tampering of that evidence is in the offing, then there is no legal or moral argument existing to deny the sharing of such evidence - should it exist.

Unless of course, there is zero confidence in the evidence in the first place and it's all just so much hot air...again.

Russia has confidence in the evidence. You are creating conspiracies even Russia is not saying.

originally posted by: MysterX

You know as well as i do what those vested interests are, and the investigators are going to be subject to the whims and will of their respective governments, like it or not.

A tactic Russia never uses.... /end sarcasm

originally posted by: MysterX
The investigators will do and say what they are ordered to do and say by their intelligence agencies and their superiors.

Just like Pro Russian rebels when they get their orders from Moscow.

originally posted by: MysterX
If this does turn out to be a set up ala false flag, and you believe in such a situation they won't be subject to such manoeuvrings, you are only fooling yourself.

So now we are going to the false flag theory..

This is turning into the very same situation we saw with Russia and Crimea. Their justifications changed on an almost hourly basis.

a reply to: MysterX

Then let me phrase it this way...

The Dutch are wanting criminal prosecution of those responsible. If they release information in the manner you want it can very well jeopardize any chance of holding people accountable.

Moral right to challenge accusers - I agree. However those challenges are argued in a court of law and not during the investigation stage.

a reply to: Xcathdra

And the accused defence has the legal right to examine the evidence being used to accuse them, in a court of law or not.

Since both Russia and the patriots fighting Kiev have both been accused by Obama, it then gives them the right to examine that supposed evidence, especially if the accuser is not trustworthy, having been discovered to have been 'economical with the truth' over various other actions that lead to and almost lead to war and or military action.

Which, frankly are shoes the US government can slip into without a shoe horn.

Its going to be a busy day.

Russian Oligarchs Are Tired of Funding Putin’s Land Grab

As the poll shows, support for Putin among the Russian public is not dying down. However, the real source of power in Russia is the oligarchs, and new reports indicates that they’re tiring of Putin’s standoff with the west, which is hitting them the hardest.

According to the German magazine Der Spiegel [the original story is in German, but an English language report can be found here), German intelligence chief Gerhard Schindler has told the Bundestag that a power struggle is underway between the Kremlin and Russian business leaders.

“According to German intelligence it is quite possible that some of the oligarchs who are worried by European Union sanctions will soon start putting economic interests above political concerns and try to put the brakes on Putin,” Der Spiegel reported.

The German report came out before the new round of sanctions were announced. Many in Russia were assuming that Germany and the rest of Europe would not impose new penalties because of the close ties between the two. Yesterday, this assumption turned out to be false.

"The ruble is losing value, Russia's budget deficit is growing and its economic development is bad. Even the Russian president sees this," Germany Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaüble told Der Spiegel. “Nobody is Moscow should start thinking that Russia can win with its approach."

Germany Inc. Says Time’s Finally Up for Putin After Crash

Germany’s business and political leaders are lining up to support a tougher stance on Russia, giving Chancellor Angela Merkel critical backing as she pushes her European Union counterparts to expand sanctions.

Industry group chiefs and lawmakers from Merkel’s governing coalition are expressing the need for deeper measures targeting Russia’s economy following the downing of Malaysia Air (MAS) Flight 17. Public opinion has also shifted, with a majority of Germans now favoring wider actions against Russia.

“This shooting down of a plane is really a turning point,” Martin Wansleben, head of the Association of German Chambers of Commerce and Industry, said in an interview. “It’s such an outrageous act that one must give a clear response.”

WHITE HOUSE TO RUSSIA: Prepare For The Worst Sanctions Yet

a reply to: MysterX

The Dutch, not the US, is leading the investigation. Australia is doing so as well.

originally posted by: GuerillaSkill
a reply to: Xcathdra

Explosive decompression caused by a missile strike.

Nonsense. The black box showed there was explosive decompression. How could the black box show the decompression was caused by a missile? It can't.

If it can, I am sure you are going to explain how, in your next post.

Perhaps it could indicate the order in which automatic systems were disconnected/deactivated due to the shrapnel fragments traveling through the volume of the aircraft.

www.bea.aero...

The CVR (Cockpit Voice Recorder) records audio data: exchanges between the pilots and with controllers as well as the acoustic environment in the cockpit (conversations, noises, aural warnings).

This is just going to give a large amount of white noise as the air leaves the plane.

The FDR (Flight Data Recorder) records the values of the aeroplane parameters (speed, altitude, engine power, connection and disconnection of automatic systems, position of flight control surfaces, flight controls, etc). According to the age and the type aircraft the number of parameters recorded varies from a few dozen to several thousand.

This is a Boeing 777, so there are probably thousands of variables that are saved but at different sampling rates ranging from eight times a second to once a minute. Maybe something like which flight control computers went offline first.

a reply to: MysterX

Since both Russia and the patriots fighting Kiev have both been accused by Obama, it then gives them the right to examine that supposed evidence, especially if the accuser is not trustworthy, having been discovered to have been 'economical with the truth' over various other actions that lead to and almost lead to war and or military action.

You say if the accuser is not trustworthy...How about when the accused is not trustworthy and has been shown to be lying about their involvement in Ukraine, that doesn't help their case at all.

What the accused has done has become a war so they have more to worry about than the accuser.

a reply to: stormcell

The CVR will record the sound of the shrapnel impact, as well as the sound of the decompression, and the Master Caution going off. The FDR will record the death of the aircraft. They won't get much, because it appears that the aircraft almost immediately broke apart after impact.

a reply to: Bassago

Okay, I agree with you. So a missile hit, there are still other questions, the last time I checked in, either side could have launched one. Or as you said, the plane could have been led to a dangerous location on purpose, and rebels tricked into firing on it.

originally posted by: Bassago
a reply to: Xcathdra

OK I'll say it, IMO this was done by Kiev as a false flag. The US seems set on war with Russia and the neo-nazi's in Kiev seem accommodating.

Just my 2 cents.

This is the chatter I have been hearing from friends in "low" places, so I have to agree. I just hope to hell I am moved into the new house before this crap starts LOL.

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: darkbake

They were almost exactly on their filed flight path, with almost zero deflection that didn't match up to their flight path from Amsterdam. There's no evidence that they were "led astray" or ordered into the combat zone.

Russia has released their satellite data.They want to know why Ukraine setup a BUK missile system days before the crash and then moved it, after the airstrike.... "The question that has to be answered is why the missile system appeared in the area controlled by the local militia forces shortly before the catastrophe, especially since militia don't have any planes"

Flight path changed from day before

a reply to: glend

So they moved this valuable missile launcher into the middle of hostile territory, shot down a 777, and moved it back out of the area, and the rebels just let them? I guess they shot down their own aircraft as well?

Its how wars operate or do you think everyone stays behind a dotted line?

a reply to: glend

I'm well aware of how wars operate. But you don't take valuable assets like air to air missile launchers, and move them into enemy held territory without a lot of security around them, including air cover. They're too easy to blow up, and too valuable to lose.