Why do peole think that Jesus was god?

a reply to: nenothtu

Not exactly the same, but close enough. The difference is gender - masculine eis vs neuter en.

Once it is in a form of a preposition, then gender doesn't figure in.
eis is used with the accusative.

There are 67 such occurrences of "ἓν" for "εἷς" in the New Testament.

The gender is irrelevant because, as an adjective, it takes the form of the word it modifies.

. . . your take on why "one and the same" can be specified in those instances, but why "one and the same" can't be specified in the other instances . . .

Either way, it is using figures of speech.
I may not be the person you want to argue this with because it looks like (to me) that the "I and the Father are one" statement is describing a "oneness" by proclamation, with God doing miracles being the evidence for that thing being "proclaimed" (by Jesus himself) being true.

a reply to: jmdewey60

If you believe that this makes Jesus the exact same entity as God, this also means you believe that You also are God, and Jesus, and ATS member ServantoftheLamb also? Just one entity, not many entities.

"that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."John 11:52

Do you see the logical fallacy of this belief of yours?

It is much more logical and in apparent proper context to believe this is speaking about a unison of heart and mind, rather than simply a single self-same entity.


But whatever, just don't expect everyone to go believing that they happen to be the exact same entity as you are. I happen to believe "joe christian" accountable for himself, not "joe Christian" accountable for yourself, because your are the same being... its craziness.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

If you believe that this makes Jesus the exact same entity as God . . .

I don't.

Do you see the logical fallacy of this belief of yours?

I don't engage in that sort of word play but try to understand the metaphorical values of the sayings.

It is much more logical and in apparent proper context to believe this is speaking about a unison of heart and mind, rather than simply a single self-same entity.

I don't believe in that and don't know why you would think that I do.
Obviously it is a figure of speech and shouldn't be taken literally.
Like I said on my earlier post, Jesus is saying that being in his hand was just as safe as being in the father's because God told him to hold them (us).

originally posted by: jmdewey60

I may not be the person you want to argue this with because it looks like (to me) that the "I and the Father are one" statement is describing a "oneness" by proclamation, with God doing miracles being the evidence for that thing being "proclaimed" (by Jesus himself) being true.

Fair enough. It was my understanding that it as the nature of that "oneness", rather than the claiming mechanism, that was in question, which was why I got into the Greek in the first place.

Be that as it may, thanks for the nice conversation, and for giving me some insight into how you see it.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Akragon

Text He also said "No man goes to heaven except those that came from heaven" Which makes a good portion of us... IF not all of us that same god like person

Could you show us where that scripture is?

John_3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Up to the time that Jesus said this, what He was saying was that the kingdom of heaven had not been established as yet and that no one of flesh had as yet been in heaven except Himself. That is my understanding but not as you have understood whatever you have read.

You got the passage...

Why do you believe the gospel of John is a time line of events that took place in order?

Johns gospel was pieced together from many different texts... it wasn't meant to be a time line written in chronological order...

and besides that... do you actually believe no one ever made it to heaven before he arrived?

Let me guess... you're also of the belief that only 144k people ever make it there...

Amirite?

a reply to: nenothtu

It was my understanding that it as the nature of that "oneness", rather than the claiming mechanism, that was in question, which was why I got into the Greek in the first place.

My philosophy is that you need to understand what it is literally saying before you can make a proper interpretation of it.

a reply to: Seede

John_3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Up to the time that Jesus said this, what He was saying was that the kingdom of heaven had not been established as yet and that no one of flesh had as yet been in heaven except Himself. That is my understanding but not as you have understood whatever you have read.

The "hath" part means this is an accomplished event, someone going up to heaven.
"Came down" should be "comes down", being in the Aorist tense.
"which is in heaven" should be someone who exists permanently in the spiritual realm denoted by the word, "heaven".

So, read in a gramatically correct way, you could come up with:

If the only person is the Son of Man who went up to heaven, then no one comes down from heaven except him, and he doesn't, but operates spiritually from above.

Which would mean that if a spirit being came down, they (the so-called spiritual leaders) would be completely overwhelmed.

The implication is that here talking to Nicodemus, was the form that he could listen to and hope to understand through metaphors what is going on in the spiritual realm that directs human events from above.

Once they (or now, us) could accept the person of Jesus, they could accept this mysterious person who Jesus is referring to by way of the vision of Daniel, that for all we know, could be who we think of as the third person of the godhead but is really a semi-human/semi-divine entity that is what transfers spiritual understanding to people after Jesus goes up to heaven to take his place in a rulership capacity.

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Akragon

Text He also said "No man goes to heaven except those that came from heaven" Which makes a good portion of us... IF not all of us that same god like person

Could you show us where that scripture is?

John_3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Up to the time that Jesus said this, what He was saying was that the kingdom of heaven had not been established as yet and that no one of flesh had as yet been in heaven except Himself. That is my understanding but not as you have understood whatever you have read.

You got the passage...

Why do you believe the gospel of John is a time line of events that took place in order?

Johns gospel was pieced together from many different texts... it wasn't meant to be a time line written in chronological order...

and besides that... do you actually believe no one ever made it to heaven before he arrived?

Let me guess... you're also of the belief that only 144k people ever make it there...

Amirite?

No one has gone to a place "heaven" because there is no such "place".Yahoshua was always speaking of a realm ...an unknown realm.Everyone that has ever died is still dead and is in the realm of death.To read "mystical spirituality" into what Yahoshua or the apostles say is a red herring on a rabbit trail that leads nowhere.

a reply to: LandoTX
"Anybody with half a brain that understands the bible, not just 'read' it understands Jesus is part of the holy trinity, God, Jesus, & the Holy Spirit. "

Wow, this conversation had really gotten above my head there for a bit
Thanks for bringing back to my level
And now my response

Is Not!

a reply to: Rex282

Sorry but I don't buy that at all...

Everyone that has ever died returned to where they came from originally... which was and always will be with God

To me this sounds like the idea Christians use... where everyone lies in a suspended status waiting for "judgement day"... makes no sense to me... then again I don't buy into revelation either

a reply to: jmdewey60

The implication is that here talking to Nicodemus, was the form that he could listen to and hope to understand through metaphors what is going on in the spiritual realm that directs human events from above.

Except in his conversation with Nicodemus is specifically says... Don't worry if you don't understand what im telling you...

Jesus knew he wouldn't get it... because what he was telling him went against nicodemus's established beliefs...

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Rex282

Sorry but I don't buy that at all...

Everyone that has ever died returned to where they came from originally... which was and always will be with God

Returned to where they came from does not mean to "heaven".When a person dies they have no "life" in them.They are dead,You are probably referring to a scripture that says when a person dies their"spirit" returns to God.However there is no such "thing" as a "spirit" spirit simply means life.When someone dies the "life" they had is dead so nothing "returns" to anywhere.

The construct that a person IS a spirit is just mystic religion and not true .A person has a "life" when they are alive that is "their spirit" ..the spirit of a man..the spirit of man.It is not a "thing" or a person or an entity.What you are referring to is Christianity not what I am writting.

originally posted by: Akragon
To me this sounds like the idea Christians use... where everyone lies in a suspended status waiting for "judgement day"... makes no sense to me... then again I don't buy into revelation either

It is not in the least .You are projecting your concepts on my statement.Christians do not believe when you are dead you are DEAD.They believe what you just said.That their "spirit"returns to God in a heaven.I didn't say that at all.

My statement was there is no place "heaven" therefore there is no place to "return to God to.When you die you are DEAD and are in the realm of death(the scriptures meaning for hades).That is all that is known and nothing more can be known until something happens.Yahoshua said there would be a "resurrection" to LIFE.That ALL of the dead will resurrect from the realm of death (hades)to LIFE not death…nor a "place called heaven and especially not a "place " called hell.

a reply to: Rex282

That's all well and good, but im no Christian either...

What im referring to is the basis of every religion through out history... the existence of "life" after the death of the body...

Regardless of whether or not you want to call it Heaven or the afterlife... That is what religion is all about...

you talk about the things Jesus said all the time... well that was the main idea behind everything he taught...

the FACT that life continues after the death of the body

Wisdom (philosophy) is the first source of knowledge on the subject of knowing God and believing in him. Scriptures are just to invite humanity to his wisdom on this subject. Scriptures are the first source of knowledge only for parts of reality that humanity can not get aware of with materialistic tools. I have not seen any philosopher who can prove that Jesus is God.
It does not make sense. Scriptures can not prove that Jesus is God. Because wisdom has denied already and priority is with wisdom on this subject (on knowing and believing in God).

a reply to: maes2

Well said... Scripture should have to prove Jesus was anything but what he said he was...

HE said he is the son of God, the path/door/gate... through which we can begin to understand the mind of God...

Its that simple... it only takes a bit of reading to understand it as well

a reply to: Akragon

Except in his conversation with Nicodemus is specifically says... Don't worry if you don't understand what im telling you...

Really?

Jesus knew he wouldn't get it... because what he was telling him went against nicodemus's established beliefs...

According to the story, he eventually did.

a reply to: Akragon

.. Scripture should have to prove Jesus was anything but what he said he was...

From what Jesus knew about God, he seemed to himself, a man.

From what people knew about men, he seemed to them, like a god.

a reply to: jmdewey60

Really?

You tell me...

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

According to the story, he eventually did.

Not necessarily...

its only assumed nicodemus became a believer in him because he assisted in his burial... but as a Pharisee that was his job anyways... they being of the priestly order

Perhaps he might have "converted" so to speak... but maybe he didn't...

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Akragon

.. Scripture should have to prove Jesus was anything but what he said he was...

From what Jesus knew about God, he seemed to himself, a man.

From what people knew about men, he seemed to them, like a god.

I agree...

but it seems to me... He knew exactly who he was... but had a very hard time trying to get people to understand what that actually meant... Even when so far as to say "I will be sitting at the right hand of God"

In one situation someone even asks if he could sit at the right hand of God with him, and Jesus says "You don't have a CLUE what you're asking"

He seemed like a god to others because he did things that people thought only God can do... but he showed them otherwise... and even said "you can do these things too, and even greater things!" And later in other books people are healed and "raised from the dead"

a reply to: Akragon

In one situation someone even asks if he could sit at the right hand of God with him, and Jesus says "You don't have a CLUE what you're asking"

They were thinking about a material sort of throne on earth, just like some people think today, with a "second coming".