The Myth of Eternal Damnation

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

It is not obvious. See my post about time being relative to us/earth. We remember Hitler because we are trapped in linear time and the events of the judgment and resurrection have not happened to us. Once that happens here then the removal from the book of life takes place. You wouldn't be aware of it though.

Lets say you are right though who is to say countless people have existed and were removed from the book of life how would you know?

Most of these concepts get muddied because we are grounded in our linear perspective and can not truly envision concepts like eternity.
It reminds me of the Flat Land example. We don't have the language or experience to conceptualize a dimension we have not interacted with.

a reply to: Skyfloating

..then you must have also found out that you didn't have to stay there.

I didn't, obviously, but I could have easily gotten stuck there, I think.
I didn't have someone standing there watching me, to tell if I was ever actually dead or not.
The situation that I was in, and the details of the real world events that day, as described to my doctors (on the next day), got a response that I most likely would have died.
This was while I was in the hospital for two months, much of which was spent at death's door.
This is probably more a "near death" type experience though at the time it seemed like the "death" part was real enough.
I didn't die and get reincarnated and somehow remember Hell after all that time.

a reply to: Skyfloating

Many of the ancients, including the greeks, say hell (hades) is below earth.

My soul was pulled out of my physical body, as some sort of soul body, then as my consciousness attached to that part of "me", was pulled through the floor, then I was falling and falling, down a dark tunnel for a very long time before being deposited into Hell proper.
I did have the distinct awareness on arrival that I was in the center of the earth.
Now there was no inverse experience of rising up to get out, that was instantaneous.
So there would be, I think, an alternative plane of existence that you go to after leaving your physical body that is not actually tied to the physical geographical location, Center of the Earth.

Going back to the original question that I was responding to on this thread, How do we get into Hell to start with, I think now, as opposed to how I used to think, that when the universe was planned, there was probably a provision also planned to deal with what happens to the souls of people when they loose their physical bodies.
According to my theory of the creation of the universe, there is an unavoidable discrepancy between the plan and the actual resulting product.
So rather than a sanitary and perfunctory escorting of the soul to a safe holding place, it turns out to be this tremendously traumatizing man-handled by demonic looking entities with claws for fingers who violently rip at your soul body and being dropped into a place that sets off a state of depression and unease.
My point being that all these negative factors are not by design, but just the way they turned out after the great 'machine of creation' was set loose to construct the universe.

a reply to: Skyfloating

originally posted by: Skyfloating
A question to Christians out there: If Eternal Life can only be had through Jesus, then how is it that eternal life (in hell) can be had without him?

That question is answered in a film I watched recently called "The Encounter"...

He will not force anyone against their will to go to Heaven.

As free moral agents, every person makes the choice as to where he will spend eternity.

Jesus: "I'm a gentleman Nick, I'll never force myself on you or anyone.

Jesus: Nick, what would be more unjust and unfair, for me to steal you at the moment of your death and force you to live in my presence and in my will for all eternity.

Jesus: Hell on the other hand is a place where you'll be completely free from all of my "though shalt nots"... FOREVER."

Melisa: But surely no one would choose that if they knew you really existed?

Jesus: Not so, nobody goes into hell blindfolded. In one way or another, I've revealed myself to everyone.

Melisa: But if they could just see you...

Jesus: Not even that would be enough. Look at satan, he stood before me in the very throne room of God. But he thought the beauty and the power bestowed was somehow earned. Gave himself over to pride. Scratch any sin and just below the surface you'll find pride...

Jesus: "I don’t want you to wallow in sin and rebellion and guilt. I want you to thrive in unending peace and joy. There isn’t one human being on this planet that’s an accident. I hand formed you in your mother’s womb and I formed you for a purpose. I put before you a path of love and worship. And the degree with which you’ll experience love and joy and the good things of life is the degree to which you’ll bend to my will.

Jesus: Everyone dies, Nick, but not everyone needs to fear death. If you abide in me, you’ll be stepping free from this fallen world and into glory.

Melisa: Is that what heaven’s like? Glory?

Jesus: It’s more than glory, Melissa. It’s peace and love and joy. Can you imagine living in the fullness of the warmth of God’s light? There are no words in the human vocabulary that can describe it. It’s a place where there is no suffering. It’s a place where every tear is wiped from your eyes. There’s no sadness. There’s no pain. And you know, Melissa, one day you and I will walk on the streets of gold and we’ll talk about this night together."

Jesus:You know, everyday I get millions of complaints about this world all the greed and selfishness poverty, starvation, the wars, the murders, the abuse of children I hardly recognize this place anymore. It bears so literal resemblance to the garden that I created for you, but it’s not hell, Nick. Even now, there’s sunshine on a spring day, there’s starry night and desert sky, there’s a gentle breeze on a summer afternoon and the smell of flowers, the song of birds, There’s even people who are willing to lend a helping hand to the helpless and there’s love Nick, there’s still love.

...out of love, he allowed Lucifer to choose his own way and this is the same freedom the Lord gives to each of us. He's not going to force anyone to go to heaven that chooses that they don't want to, even if they once did. God doesn't make decisions for us, but He allows us to choose for ourselves. This has to be true, since sin entered the world because of bad choices made by Adam and Eve.

The Lord gave each of His created beings a free will. After we have accepted Jesus as our savior, we still have the freedom to turn back to a life of sin and to reject His grace. The Lord speaks about people being in danger of having their names removed from the Book of Life. (Exodus 32:33 & Revelation 3:5)

Can a Christian Lose Their Salvation?

Why I never understood Hell, is why would God create human life if it's so easy to end up in eternal damnation. There's nothing all-loving about a God who condemns unbaptized babies (funny how religion had to backpaddle on that years later) or non-converted indigenous races of people to eternal damnation. God made man, man made religion. Religion needs hell and to teach non-questioning obedience to keep the common people in line or it would perish.

originally posted by: HistoricalActionFigure
There's nothing all-loving about a God who condemns unbaptized babies...

There is a MASSIVE amount of evidence showing that babies that live a short life DO in fact go to heaven.

Below are just a couple of examples of this:

"This dome," said my guide, "is the place where all infants from earth are gathered for instruction. The outer buildings are the nurseries where they are first brought, to be nourished by their guardian angel." "Whenever an infant dies on earth, the guardian angel who brings it here considers all of its abilities and places it with others of similar ability. According to its artistic, scientific or social abilities, each is given a home best suited to the development of its gifts." INFANTS' PARADISE

"I too was able to see where the infants are. Everything she described (Marietta Davis) was as I saw it. But I saw and was told more specifically they were all the babies that were born and died, and miscarriages and abortions. When I was there, I was at home. That is where we belong. Make every effort to get there." Nine Days in Heaven

In heaven, children are there, all the ones who died young, in childbirth, or were aborted.
Link

"Colton, still 4 years old, told his mother “you had a baby die in your tummy didn’t you”, which completely shocked them both because they had never told him about their miscarriage. They asked him how he knew and he said that he met his sister in Heaven and she told him what happened."

"Well he’s 7 years old now and it took a couple of years for his parents to really understand what happened, but when Colton Burpo was four years he was having surgery in the hospital for a burst appendix. While he was in surgery he apparently had some sort of out of body experience and could see what his parents were doing. He witnessed that his dad was praying and his mom on her cellphone. Both parents say they have no clue how he knew that, but that it’s absolutely true. And the story just gets more interesting from there.

Four year old met his mother’s miscarried child in Heaven

"In 1988, evangelist Jesse Duplantis was taken up into Heaven. While he was there, he saw a multitude of small children, singing and praising God as they played little harps. When he asked the angel who had brought him there who they were, he was told they were the children the earth did not want. As Duplantis watched these children, who appeared to be from three to ten years old, he realized that they were children who had been lost to abortion. The angel explained to him that these children longed to see their mothers come to Heaven and be reunited with them." Link

originally posted by: jmdewey60
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My point being that all these negative factors are not by design, but just the way they turned out after the great 'machine of creation' was set loose to construct the universe.

Ah, what a shame. Trillions of souls stuck in eternal damnation. Too bad. Better luck with the next universe.

originally posted by: Murgatroid


As free moral agents, every person makes the choice as to where he will spend eternity.

Now suppose that after 210 Trillion years I make the choice that I`d rather not be in hell anymore but would like to go to heaven...?

a reply to: Skyfloating

you see the flaw in your OP right? you show no proof at all you state no facts only your opinions, also there are many versus in the bible that state hell is eternal. maybe next time before you decide to start a thread you should actually put some time into your thread.

originally posted by: bigcountry08

you see the flaw in your OP right? you show no proof at all you state no facts only your opinions, also there are many versus in the bible that state hell is eternal. maybe next time before you decide to start a thread you should actually put some time into your thread.

I had sex before marriage. Another guy is a buddhist, not a christian. Another guy stole some money when he was young. Are you saying that the three of us, unless we repent, are going to be in hell forever, with no chance of ever, ever, ever coming out?

Just asking for clarification.

a reply to: bigcountry08

Are you saying that you can provide proof that eternal damnation is true?

Your post isn't a shining example of 'love thy neighbour' so your proof might also be your downfall.

originally posted by: Skyfloating
I mean lets take Hitler for example. I can see how punishing him for a hundred years might seem reasonable and an opportunity to "learn the lesson" or as a deterrent.

I don't see why anyone hates Hitler. What did the jews ever do for this world? But, Hitler aside, the Holocaust could have been prevented if the other European Nations and America would have used diplomacy to free the Holocaust victims. But the European and American governments did no such thing. In fact, America (FDR) wanted to use the War to their political and economic advantage, which, as we can see from history, the true winner in WWII was America --at the expense of the 10 million who were slaughtered that America could have actually saved without even having to spill any of our blood. So for all those who knows a WWII vet, that's a typical sheep for you. Mindlessly serving Big Brother. America bless you!

I do agree that eternal damnation can't really be eternal. Did God really create a Soul for eternal damnation? Seems like a poor God, doesn't it? Of course, eternal damnation could also refer to ceasing to exist --the State of consciousness you were before you were born. So it's eternal damnation in the sense that you will never cease to exist for all eternity.

a reply to: Murgatroid

so your saying if I lie on my deathbed I will go to hell according to exodus 32:33?

a reply to: Skyfloating

depends on which religion your talking about, if your talking about Christianity then yes. Its just that simple.

a reply to: Kandinsky

In Christianity yes I can its stated in several versus in the bible the only book you can go off of in Christianity.

lol how am i not loving my neighbor? because i'm calling him out on the weakness of his OP.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I'm sorry, did I miss Judgement Day?

originally posted by: bigcountry08

depends on which religion your talking about, if your talking about Christianity then yes. Its just that simple.

You are saying "yes, you three, who are otherwise fairly nice guys, will experience eternal torment for your errors. Nevermind that your transgressions were minor. Nevermind that Trillions of years of torture would be enough. Nevermind any of that. You are doomed and damned forever"

What a lovely message to spread amongst ones fellow humans.

a reply to: bigcountry08

Which Testament do you follow? Is it 'eye for an eye' or 'turn the other cheek?'

lol how am i not loving my neighbor? because i'm calling him out on the weakness of his OP.

^^ Sounds like the sin of pride talking.

Was that how it went down? Jesus laughed his ass off at those he disagreed with and called them out? There's a taint of damnation in your comments there.

originally posted by: bigcountry08
because i'm calling him out on the weakness of his OP.

The purpose of the OP was to meet people like you and find out what you mean by "eternal damnation". So it fulfills its purpose perfectly.