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The Myth of Eternal Damnation

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posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 06:08 PM
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a reply to: Unity_99

You can believe whatever you want...that's okay with me.

The reality of it is that hell, whether it is eternal conscious punishment or not, is not a place you want to be after you die.

Let's make our lives count and not have to rely on some "purification" process afterwards....or in a worst case scenario, an eternity of self-inflicted torment...

I'm not a gambling man...but if I was...I still wouldn't roll those dice....
A2D




posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 06:09 PM
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a reply to: Murgatroid

again you don't state any scripture to back your statements. your whole conspiracy sounds great and movie like but i can take actual biblical text and back what i say.
edit on 6-6-2014 by bigcountry08 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 06:11 PM
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a reply to: bigcountry08

and I would in turn post a little quote from Aristotle...

"often when one is asleep, there is something in consciousness which declares that what then presents itself is but a dream"...(referring to lucid dreaming)

A2D



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 06:14 PM
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originally posted by: FlyersFan
WOW that's a lot of anti-Catholic propaganda. I personally know some Opus Dei people. They aren't anything like what your youtube paranoia spouts. And none of the people at the Opus Dei meetings I met when I visited do anything even close to 'infiltrate Baptist Sunday Schools' or that kind of thing. They are simply prayerful and kind. That's it.


Don't mistake truth for hate...

This isn't about Catholic believers.

I used to BE Catholic.

Some of the dearest people I've met are Catholic.

Unfortunately, being sweet and nice doesn't make one immune to being deceived.



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 06:17 PM
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a reply to: Agree2Disagree

Completely agree with you on that.




posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 06:22 PM
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originally posted by: bigcountry08
again you don't state any scripture to back your statements. your whole conspiracy sounds great and movie like but i can take actual biblical text and back what i say.

Like I said, misusing the Bible to support pet theories WILL lead to deception.

As long as you keep embracing what religion is telling you, there is NOTHING I can say that will change your mind.

You can either believe religion or you can believe God, but you CAN'T believe both.

Because religion ALWAYS lies.

End of story...



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 06:38 PM
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a reply to: Murgatroid

He/she didn't say they use religion to back their statements....He/she is using scripture...

As long as you keep denying what scripture says...well...

"For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them."

A2D



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 07:02 PM
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originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
He/she didn't say they use religion to back their statements....He/she is using scripture...


He/she is using scripture that is irrelevant...

This is why I said that if we misuse the Bible to support our pet theories, we WILL fall victim to lies.


The doctrine of once-saved-always-saved is a new belief introduced approximately fifty years ago by secular progressive clergy eager to lift the “burden” of God’s Word off the backs of unrepentant sinners. Prior to then there was not one major denomination that preached or believed the once-saved-always-saved lie many now consider Gospel.

The argument made by those preaching the biblically unsustainable doctrine is that nothing can separate us from God once we have been saved. These verses (John 10:28-29 ), like all Scripture, are true. They are also, as they pertain to the issue, irrelevant. They are so because they talk about the inability of anyone taking us from our Savior, while ignoring that we always have free will. Meaning, while we cannot be taken from Him, we can turn from Him, as that is our God-given right.

ONCE-SAVED-ALWAYS-SAVED IS A DEADLY LIE

I would like to point out some hard facts in the Word of God which cannot be overlooked.

Fact: a person can be "in Jesus' mouth" and be spit out for being lukewarm.


I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth... As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Revelation 3:15-16,19

Fact: a person can be written in the book of life, and then blotted out.


He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3:5

Fact: any man who loveth not as Jesus commanded of us, does not have eternal life.


We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:14-15

Fact: if you see a brother in Christ stray from the truth, then to bring him again to repentance will save his soul from hell.


Brethren [speaking to Christians], if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him [bring him back to repentance]; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

Some hard facts against once-saved theology





edit on 6-6-2014 by Murgatroid because: Added link



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 07:10 PM
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a reply to: Skyfloating

Ah, what a shame. Trillions of souls stuck in eternal damnation. Too bad. Better luck with the next universe.
The thread title is about the myth of eternal damnation.
I posted here to agree with the premise of the thread.
My point is that being in Hell is not necessarily the result of damnation.
I'm saying that your soul goes somewhere as a result of the loss somehow of your physical body.
I think this is basically a universal truth that just about everyone accepts.
I could go on to say that it is part of a natural process that is built into how the universe works.
I think that the role of religion is to figure out either a way to get out of that place, or to make your stay more enjoyable.
A god, or the God, presumably would be someone who could transcend the realms of the living and the dead, and could do something for you to deal with that situation.
My advice is to go with that thought, that even in the situation of being in a place that seems to have the necessary qualities to be considered Hell, to not despair of hope, but to call on God.


edit on 6-6-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 07:29 PM
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originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Skyfloating

Ah, what a shame. Trillions of souls stuck in eternal damnation. Too bad. Better luck with the next universe.
The thread title is about the myth of eternal damnation.
I posted here to agree with the premise of the thread.
My point is that being in Hell is not necessarily the result of damnation.
I'm saying that your soul goes somewhere as a result of the loss somehow of your physical body.
I think this is basically a universal truth that just about everyone accepts.
I could go on to say that it is part of a natural process that is built into how the universe works.
I think that the role of religion is to figure out either a way to get out of that place, or to make your stay more enjoyable.
A god, or the God, presumably would be someone who could transcend the realms of the living and the dead, and could do something for you to deal with that situation.
My advice is to go with that thought, that even in the situation of being in a place that seems to have the necessary qualities to be considered Hell, to not despair of hope, but to call on God.



I rather like what you said which is to say I kinda agree but get out of here to go where? You didn't mention that bit. To somewhere nicer? So how nice can we hope for it to get? Also, and I'm not out to tear you apart or anything near it so bear with me, hell to one person might be paradise to another and all relatives in between. What happens if I make this place I'm in now comfortably acceptably nice through making it appear hell to others that I use and abuse (not that I do you understand)? You see where it is leading?



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 07:45 PM
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a reply to: Murgatroid

I have facts too...and here it is...

One's salvation is dependent upon accepting Jesus as Savior, trusting in His sacrifice, and looking to no one and nothing else.

The only thing that can separate us from the love of God...is willingly separating ourselves....

A2D



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 08:09 PM
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a reply to: bigcountry08

so in your opinion theirs no such thing as grace, salvation is only achieved through works?
"Grace" can mean one of several things, depending on the context.
James says that faith without works is dead.
Salvation is not achieved by your own doing, according to Ephesians.
"Salvation" to the New Testament writers did not mean the same thing as its popular usage today indicates.
Modern pop-culture religion sees "salvation" as a guaranteed golden ticket to the Rapture.
To the ancients, it meant being in the kingdom, and specifically to the Bible, the 'Kingdom of God', being part of the community under that deity's direct protection.

but according to Romans 3:23 all I have to do is have faith and believe that Jesus is my Lord and savor and give my life over to him.

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,i through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
In verse 23, Paul is concluding his earlier argument that merely having the Law as a Jew does not by itself make you more righteous than a gentile because even in the Law itself you can find verses that seem to negate that, including the ones he quotes here.

In verse 24, by "justify", Paul does not mean pushed onto the Rapture train, but is about coming into conformity with the standard of righteousness that would be expected for someone who is in a faith community involving the proper God.
The "redemption" Paul is referring to here is the breaking down of the the wall of separation between Jews and gentiles.
The "grace" here is in allowing gentiles into the faith community without the requirement of first becoming a Jew.

In verse 25, the Greek word in this version of a translation rendered as "a sacrifice of atonement" is in the Septuagint used to describe the Mercy Seat of the old wilderness tabernacle of the Israelites, and so was translated that way by Martin Luther.
The "shedding of his blood" would be a parallel to the description in Hebrews, that Jesus entered into the Most Holy Place with his own blood.
That is using a metaphor based on the Old Testament instructions for the High Priest to not enter without blood.
This situation, of Jesus being our Mercy Seat, is offered to us by God.
"To be received by faith" is the gift, where the "grace" comes in, that in comparison to the old Israelite system, you "received" that by birth into a tribe, then following all the various rules associated with that, we now have a system that we become part of through faith.
The "demonstrate his righteousness" part is the subject of this chapter of Romans, the question of: Is it fair for God to allow the gentiles this membership in the kingdom with their long history of unrighteousness as pagans?
God shows that he is right by this because we see it in how the former pagans accept this new system brought about by the work of Jesus, and are becoming righteous, even if it is not exactly like the Jewish style of righteousness.
The "sins committed beforehand unpunished" is a reference to that pagan past.
God did not destroy them for being pagans because He foresaw this very thing that we now see playing out, the conversion of the pagans.

In verse 26, Paul is concluding that line of explanation, that God should be commended for these people who are now coming into conformity with proper godliness.

there's also this

Mark 3:28-29

28 I promise you that any of the sinful things you say or do can be forgiven, no matter how terrible those things are. 29 But if you speak against the Holy Spirit, you can never be forgiven. That sin will be held against you forever.
This is basically a condemnation of the leadership in Jerusalem, the representatives of the temple cult that was to be destroyed in that generation, the prediction by Jesus that saw its fulfillment in 70 AD after the siege and takeover by the Romans under Titus.
edit on 6-6-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 08:35 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: FlyersFan

I like that explanation, but it seems to only cover those that want to be in there.
Like the OP example of kissing, or laying with a women that is not your wife is considered something that would send you to hell right?
Or if one breaks the 10 commandments, i stole some candy as a kid, wouldn't that qualify me to burn in hell for all eternity?


That raises another question about the duality of good and evil. Is stealing a piece of chocolate as a child (because you didn't know any better) the same kind of evil as murdering a bus full of children? Technically they are both breaking of the ten commandments. So if you go unforgiven from that event as a child, let's say that you never convert to Christianity and confess your sins, you will burn for that simple stealing of a candy bar just like that guy who took out a bus full of children. Also if you look at good and evil relativistically you start to follow a line of thought that kind of proves that good and evil don't actually exist and what we consider good or bad just changes with the times.

For instance, the OT condones slavery, but these days we view it reprehensibly. Does that mean that now that we disfavor slavery as acceptable, all the people who engaged in it back in the day when it was acceptable are all burning in eternal fire now?


slaves? it might have condoned it but it had restrictions with how to deal with them.

today, we don't have slaves so what the bible says, doesn't apply.
but if we did, people would have to abide by the rules. lol.

if we want to go down that slave path, the owners who broke the rules would be in trouble.

no one knows what they will face when being judged.
no man or woman has any ability to tell you what your fate will be.



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 09:04 PM
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originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: FlyersFan


So you'd chose Hell in the afterlife and you'd be fine with it because the alternative would be to live in Heaven with God and Him ruling ...


Yeah, but see, I don't really know what it would be like there, hypothetically speaking. I know propaganda, I know psychology, I know what we're supposed to think. But I don't actually know what's there. What if God turns out to be some pretentious prick I have no desire to associate with? Does that automatically make me a bad person? Maybe he's a narcissist and no one likes him, and the only reason anyone is in his kingdom is because they know that if you're not in heaven, you're somewhere worse. Or maybe he just rubs me the wrong way and I decide he's not my kind of king. Does that mean I've instantly earned an eternity in his personal barbecue pit?


lol, that's pretty funny.

put in for a transfer
or yeah, you probably will end up on the menu, med-rare.



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 09:07 PM
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originally posted by: Skyfloating

originally posted by: FlyersFan
BThe people in Hell put themselves there and want to stay there because it's as far away from God as they can get .... They want no part of Heaven.


I have met people in this life who prefer lifelong suffering and complaining to forgiveness (and thereby relief from suffering), so this idea of personal choice certainly makes more sense to me.

I take it that after a Million years or so, they might start getting bored and try to ascend. ;-)


i'm not sure if anyone will be aware of the passage of time in either heaven or hell.



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 09:16 PM
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originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: FlyersFan


You have no choice. It's like you are an ant and God is the universe. This is HIS game. We are just the pieces. It is impossible to overthrow God. He created it all. He runs it. He is bigger than all of us put together.


I don't believe in allowing any one person to have all the power. Ever. That is a stupid mistake to make, and more often than not, you wind up paying for it.


The question remains .. why would you want to go to heaven anyways? If you don't like God; if you want to throw Him out; if you don't want to be around Him ... then why would you want to be in His home??


You may as well ask me why I shouldn't go to hell if I don't like God. What do you think? Am I worthy of eternal damnation for my taste in company?


Hell is made for folks like you. That's not an insult so don't take it that way. Hell is for people who want to be as far away from God as possible. It's for those who don't like Him and don't want to live in His home with Him for eternity. So given the choice .. Heaven or Hell .. you'll be happier with Hell. UNLESS at some point you decide you don't hate God and wouldn't mind living with Him in His home for eternity .. then you'll chose Heaven.


Black and white, as usual. Ugh, this gets boring so fast. And thanks for telling me I belong in hell. Maybe I'll get a quick tour before I have to decide.


dude, lucifer and a third of the angels were thrown out of heaven.

where do you think you will end up? you want your own little heaven with like minded buddies?
what do you think your chances will be in getting that.

with that attitude, i'm sure you won't have to worry about being heaven and putting up with God.



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 09:21 PM
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a reply to: Agree2Disagree

"Accepting Jesus" is a religious term and is NOT in the Word of God.


"Read the Bible as many times as you will, but nowhere does any person say this or offer this. Jesus never asked people to accept Him as a personal Savior to be saved. None of the apostles ever made this statement. No evangelist or any other preacher recorded in sacred writ ever uttered this sentence. It is not found in any of the epistles to the churches. It is simply just not there. Accepting Jesus is NOT in the Word of God

What REALLY happens when a person is born again?

"Accept Jesus as your personal Savior, and you will be saved"

Nowhere do the Scriptures even hint that we simply accept Jesus Christ as Savior, and we’re automatically saved.

Diabolical Doctrine 7) Eternal security... once saved, always saved

We can be very secure in the Lord Jesus Christ, but faith in this doctrine, rather than in Him, can be a license to sin. This is a doctrine that’s false in the way it’s used, being carried on the back of a lie and compounding the error and confusion that comes from the lie. The sequence goes like this: “Once a person has accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, he/she is forever saved.” LINK

The problem is that nowhere does the Bible speak about “accepting Jesus as your savior”. The Bible is clear that only those whose names are written (by God) in the book of life will be saved. And He does not write any names there that have not been washed from their sins by the Blood of His Son. God’s plan of how we are to be saved: the Blood of Jesus shed at the Cross of Calvary. LINK

  1. We don’t “accept” Jesus, He redeems and then accepts us.
  2. Jesus doesn’t enter our heart, the Holy Spirit does.
  3. I don’t invite Jesus into my life, He invites me into His.

First, there is nothing more arrogant than for us to assume that Jesus must earn or receive our “acceptance.”

Second, Jesus doesn’t enter your heart. I have two big, big problems with this claim. Of greatest concern is that it doesn’t say this anywhere in the Bible. Sure, Jesus is “with us always (Matthew 28:20),” but no where in the Bible does it say that Jesus lives “in our heart.”

“When I became a Christian I didn’t invite Jesus into my life, He invited me into His.” Jesus doesn’t join your life, your plans, and your purposes. You join Jesus’ life, plans, and purposes. The point is simply that you do not attach Jesus to what you already have going on as though He’s a simple accessory to be added to your wardrobe. Instead, we reorient our entire lives around Him. Jesus becomes our True North. Instead of living for ourselves, we lay down our old lives and live for Christ." LINK

As we cannot physically see the wind but see the evidences of its presence as it blows by "so is everyone that is born of the Spirit". True believing is an evidence that a person has been born again. A person does not become born again because they believe -- they believe because they have been born again. Our salvation is totally and completely the work of God and a product of His Will, not our own will -- as John 1:13 declared. Faith (believing) is the evidence that God has done a work in your heart. In our own will, we would never choose to seek God as Romans 3:10,11 says,

Salvation always begins with God's action (which we cannot physically see) and always results in our action, as we act upon faith and begin to seek to know and grow in a relationship with the Lord. To say that a person must "accept" Christ in order to be saved is leading people to trust in their own work of accepting and believing. The Bible is very clear that trusting in our own work in any way, can never lead to salvation LINK



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 09:30 PM
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originally posted by: stormbringer1701

Ezekeil 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


hell itself is not eternal torment. hell is place of execution. the bible says fear not those that can kill the body but him that can destroy the soul. many of Satans' titles; such as son of perdition, appolyon, etc. means to die. perdition's root means "to perish." John 3:16 say that God desires that no one perish, and admonished israel in the OT to do what is right so that they can live. the description in Daniel concerning the king of Tyre widely recognized as being a biblical type for Satan says he will burn to ashed from within his midst (belly/torso) and the people will tread on his ashes when he is thrown in the lake of fire. Christ's description of the environs where Lazarus and the rich man are does not contain any literal lake of fire. Christ calls hell Gehenom. Gehenom was a landfill outside Jerusalem at the time where the fires burned night and day but it is gone now.

the new testament calls hell the second death which is the death of the soul.

the effects of hell are eternal. but Hell is not. that is a misconception that has appallingly been embraced by most churches. can you imagine a heaven where your loved ones or even strangers writhe in torment out on the front porch? what kind of psychopath could enjoy being in such a place?

The parts of the bible that appear to support eternal torment are in some cases hebraisms and in some cases maybe even a little faulty editing. a hebraism is a figure of speech. there are plenty of them in the bible. at the time smoke was thought to go up forever and ever as it rises above a fire. so the saying meant that something was sealed, done, final and irreversible.

ironically the unsaved atheist (along with all other unsaved people) is going exactly where he thinks he is; that is into nothingness.

the obliteration in hell is so complete that even people who knew them will not remember them or anything about them. they will be blotted out of the book of life which means there will be no trace even outside of memory. if there was a book with them in it it's erased. a statue of them? gone. they carved initials in a table somewhere? gone.

God is not a sadist. eternal torment would be as unappealing to him as it is to any sane individual. and Christians who gloat over the idea of their enemies and sinners being tormented forever should enter into a little self reflection or seek therapy.



great post!

this is probably the closest to what is the true nature of what the afterlife will hold for us.

being separated from The Light and being 86'd from any existence would be the punishments that would be used.

i think.



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 10:57 PM
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The ideals of eternal damnation are no more based of consequences, and a lot of mixed up morals. Although the ideals will vary from culture, yet they all follow the same basis. In some cultures, the view of this life could be considered eternal damnation, where as the people are to be in servitude to a god, some form or other. And that their granted eternal life, an some seat beside a God, or a Devil.

Or even concepts of karma, which could simply be cause an effect. Or maybe they are just child stories that have gotten extremely exaggerated?



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 11:07 PM
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a reply to: Shema

I rather like what you said which is to say I kinda agree but get out of here to go where?
I meant getting out of Hell, rather than getting out of "here", since I'm not too sure that there is another place to go to that is not essentially the same as what we are presently enjoying in this life.

You didn't mention that bit.
I am currently studying that problem, mostly in the context of the NT writings of Paul.
I think that he frames certain concepts within the apocalyptic viewpoint because he sees the historical point from which he was writing as the apocalypse in action.
But analyzing it to look for specifics as to a future forecast, you rather find these more mundane problems being solved as to the sinful condition of man to the point of being irredeemable as things currently stand.
The antidote to the being lost to the obscurity of non existence, to Paul is the framework of a celebration of life in sharing the gloriousness of the freedom from sin, concerning the aspect of the seemingly obvious harsh reality that it has the power over us to cause our deaths and not just in a temporary manner, but in a way that was too frightening to even contemplate.
Paul, I think, envisions this celebration as the calling of the divine messenger to share in the assembly of the saints, the appreciation of Jesus' status before God, and our obedience to his law in our loving each other.
So to borrow a term from the church, a communion as it is empowered by God, in a real physical spirituality that defies the power of sin to rule over us, as we at that moment, experience a glorification and perfection.
This is like a bolstering of the self to withstand the horrors of death, and all that it entails, such as demons and Hell.
So, what it looks like to me is that here in this book, the New Testament, is the manual for apocalyptic church, the thing that was looked forward to, with the apocalyptic religion that will send us properly prepared for the afterlife, but not especially interested in describing what that might be exactly.
edit on 6-6-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



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