The Myth of Eternal Damnation

a reply to: Kandinsky

can you name a time in the bible where Jesus didn't argue with people who were spreading lies about Christianity?

there are many cases in the bible where Jesus and his followers rebuked people for spreading lies and twisting scriptures.
for one the time Jesus whipped the people for selling in the temple.

I'm laughing because your trying to do what the pharisees did to Jesus trip me up and try and make me look bad, but your statements of turn the other cheek and love thy neighbor have nothing to do with this situation. we are talking about people using human opinion to alter the Bible, which God directly speaks against.

this is the verse your talking about too.
luke 6 27-30
27“But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

see the key word "you" meaning when someone does something to me, the OP isnt doing anything to me hes doing something to Christianity and the Bible.

Proverbs 30:5-6
English Standard Version (ESV)
5 Every word of God proves true;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
6 Do not add to his words,
lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

a reply to: Skyfloating

I'm not God its not my fault don't shoot the messenger, but we have a written text that is cut and dry if you don't except Jesus you go to hell and its eternal thats it.



Matthew 18:8
8 “and If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the Eternalfire.

Matthew 25:46
46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire

Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

originally posted by: bigcountry08
a reply to: Skyfloating

we have a written text that is cut and dry if you don't except Jesus you go to hell and its eternal thats it.

In any other context this would be called extortion mixed in with sadism.

But if God is of an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient Being, then it follows that he could easily have hell disappear in the blink of an eye and reverse anything found in scripture. Hence, while the idea of eternal damnation exists, it is not a "must" because for God nothing is a "must" and anything can be done or undone.

originally posted by: bigcountry08
a reply to: Murgatroid

so your saying if I lie on my deathbed I will go to hell according to exodus 32:33?

According to what Jesus spoke to the woman below, 99% won't cut it, it's either 100% or nothing...

A Testimony of a Face to Face Encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ

This quote is the key point: "You don't believe my word the Bible."

"It's My responsibility as God to protect My word for you."

Nathan Leal interviews "CJ"

The end result for those who reject the Word of God is that VERY few make it to Heaven:

On August 3, 1979, Howard Pittman, a Baptist minister for 35 years, died while on the operating table during surgery and had a near-death experience.

Instead of allowing me to enter, the angel stationed me before the Gates, slightly to one side. He instructed me to stay there and watch as the saints were permitted to enter into Heaven. This point was so important that the Holy Spirit told me Himself. I watched the fifty saints enter Heaven, but the point I missed was the time frame involved.

It was explained to me that at the same time those fifty saints died on Earth, 1,950 other humans also died; or only 50 out of 2000 made it into Heaven. That other 1,950 were not there. Where were they? That was only 2 ½ percent going to Heaven! Ninety seven point five percent did not make it! Is that representative of the entire world today? If so, 97 ½ percent of the population of this world today is not ready to meet God.

Placebo by Howard Pittman

Christians in Hell

The two angels escorted me to Hell. I then saw many pastors, elders, and deacons in Hell. I asked the angel, “I know them. They had served God faithfully while on the Earth. They had died some time ago. We all had thought they were in Heaven with God. But now, I see them all in Hell and they are crying out that it is so hot! Why are they here?” There were so many pastors, elders, deacons and all other lay believers.

The angel answered, “Pastor Park Yong Gyu, a person can appear to be a true follower of Christ on the outside but God knows the heart.

There are multitudes of churches on the Earth and many of the churches are filled with many people. However, most of them are not true Christians. They are but church attendants. The true churches will firmly believe in Heaven and a Hell. The lives of many Christians are in chaos because they do not firmly believe in Heaven and Hell. When one soul enters Heaven, one thousand cursed souls enter Hell. The rate of Heaven and Hell is 1 to 1000.” (Matt 7:14)

Heaven & Hell 1000 to 1

Bishop Wilfred Lai is the founder and senior Pastor of Jesus Celebration Center in Mombasa, Kenya and it is a church of over 15,000 members. One day he asked the Lord how many of them were ready for heaven and the Lord told him only 200. Only 1% of that church is going to heaven! Dr. Lai said that some pastors have created large groups of sinners meeting in the name of God. “What you have are not churches, but large congregations of sinners.”

Message from Pastor Wilfred Lai

Jesus explained, “Sesame! In order for someone to be saved, they must believe and receive me sincerely deep into their hearts, but most importantly it is crucial to have a sincere heart and mind. Many who have received me end up in hell, because during the prayer of confession they simply recited the prayer without sincerity!”

Jesus also said, “Many profess they have accepted and proclaimed me into their hearts, and with their mouths believe that they are saved, since they’ve believed in me for a long time, but, it is not the length of time that determines your salvation. It is the process of bearing fruits in your character that leads you closer to attaining salvation.

Many believe blindly the incorrect teaching that simply reciting with their mouths will guarantee their salvation -- and are under an illusion that they will go to heaven. Salvation should be realized through fear and trembling and each individual must grow in sincere faith.” Jesus is heartbroken and frustrated that so many souls end up in hell because they believed erroneously.

Source

a reply to: Skyfloating

yup I guess he could if he really wanted to but neither of us has any proof of anything like this so I'm not really willing to take the chance nor do i have any desire to.

but then there is this.

Numbers 23:19 is clear: “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?”

MALACHI 3:6
6“I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

originally posted by: Skyfloating

originally posted by: bigcountry08
a reply to: Skyfloating

we have a written text that is cut and dry if you don't except Jesus you go to hell and its eternal thats it.

In any other context this would be called extortion mixed in with sadism.

But if God is of an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient Being, then it follows that he could easily have hell disappear in the blink of an eye and reverse anything found in scripture. Hence, while the idea of eternal damnation exists, it is not a "must" because for God nothing is a "must" and anything can be done or undone.

If it doesn't happen....then he'd be a liar...

A2D

originally posted by: bigcountry08
a reply to: Skyfloating

you see the flaw in your OP right? you show no proof at all you state no facts only your opinions, also there are many versus in the bible that state hell is eternal. maybe next time before you decide to start a thread you should actually put some time into your thread.

The bible also does that , and interpretation of its passages is everything and changes the meaning

But Genesis 32 30, gives us an opinion,a very subjective experience, of meeting God in our pineal.

So while there may be older traditions and borrowed "wisdoms" from other ancient texts and beliefs, we're still left with, its all opinion or personal subjective beliefs/experiences.

When seeking, I research NDE's.

One thing noted in NDE's, in particular the hellish ones, everyone always assumed they and other souls are there forever.

And yet there is no reason to assume this

For example many suicides seem to be in a place which is akin to an outer layer of the abyss, and you go further for areas that are more hard core.

And the person goes through various feelings noticing everyone is in their own box, as if depressed. Then the person prays and notices a Light comes and rescues them.

They assume none of the others bottom out and do the same thing, whereas I believe Good Family is always outreaching for them to notice.

I believe everyone there is also having a similar experience as the NDE person is having, that they are not special in that way, that all are being called to healing and Love.

originally posted by: Skyfloating
Now suppose that after 210 Trillion years I make the choice that I`d rather not be in hell anymore but would like to go to heaven...?

“We just don’t want to come to the end of our lives and realize that we were playing a game." ~ Francis Chan

The question has been asked in hell MANY times...

Jesus' answer:

"It is too late," said Jesus. "Judgment is set."

The old woman cried out to Jesus, "Lord Jesus, please forgive me now. I'm sorry that I didn't repent while I was on earth." With great sobs she cried out to Jesus, "If only I had repented before it was too late! Lord, help me out of here. I will serve You. I will be good. Haven't I suffered enough? Why did I wait until too late? Oh, why did I wait until Your Spirit quit striving with me?" Jesus said to her, "You had chance after chance to repent and serve Me." Sadness was written all over Jesus' face as we walked away.

Jesus knew my thoughts and said, "My child, judgment has been set. God has spoken. Even when she was a child, I called and called her to repent and to serve Me. When she was sixteen years old, I came to her and said, 'I love you. Give your life to Me, and come follow Me, for I have called you for a special purpose: I called all her life, but she would not listen. She said, 'Someday I will serve You. I have no time for You now. No time, no time, I have my life of fun. No time, no time to serve You, Jesus. Tomorrow I will.' Tomorrow never came, for she waited too long."

A Divine Revelation of Hell

We came to the next pit. Inside this pit, which was the same size as the other one, was another skeleton form. A man's voice cried from the pit, saying, "Lord, have mercy on me!" Only when they spoke could I tell whether the soul was a man or woman.

Great wailing sobs came from this man. "I'm so sorry, Jesus. Forgive me. Take me out of here. I have been in this place of torment for years. I beg You, let me out!" Great sobs shook his skeletal frame as he begged, "Please, Jesus, let me out!" I looked at Jesus and saw that He too was crying.

"Lord Jesus," the man cried out from the burning pit, "haven't I suffered enough for my sins? It has been forty years since my death."

Jesus said, "It is written, 'The just shall live by faith!' All mockers and unbelievers shall have their part in the lake of fire. You would not believe the truth. Many times My people were sent to you to show you the way, but you would not listen to them. You laughed at them and refused the gospel. Even though I died on a cross for you, you mocked Me and would not repent of your sins. My Father gave you many opportunities to be saved. If only you had listened!" Jesus wept.

"I know, Lord, I know!" the man cried. "But I repent now."

"It is too late," said Jesus. "Judgment is set."

A Divine Revelation of Hell

I just picked this up from a Google Search:

ROMANS 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

MATTHEW 7:13-14
“Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it, (14) but small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

JOHN 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

ROMANS 8:13
For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

GALATIONS 6:8
The one who sows to please the sinful nature from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the spirit, from the spirit will reap eternal life.

PROVERBS 11:19
The truly righteous man attains life, but he who pursues evil goes to his death.

It would seem that one option is eternal life and the opposite of that death rather than "eternal torment"

?

The question really is: Which Bible verse refers to eternal conscious, awake, alive torment?

a reply to: Skyfloating

Off the top of my head without going into the whole context of the first quote, just a quick alternative meaning:

ROMANS 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

Reincarnation. The second death.

The narrow gate? Could be akin to this:

gnosticteachings.org...

I have seen an ancient Path, an ancient road traversed by the rightly enlightened ones of former times. - Buddhism. Samyutta Nikaya ii.106

And this, which I would have to study more on to agree with or not:

The narrow gate is the gate back to Eden; it is the gate we left through so long ago. This gate is the knowledge of the Great Arcanum. To practice the teachings contained in this most precious treasure is to step onto the true Path. This path, and the steps that make it, is defined in Hebrew by the word Daath. Daath is the hidden sphere of the Kabbalah, and the word means "knowledge." It is the Tree of Knowledge from the Garden of Eden, which bore the fruit eaten by Adam and Eve. The Greek word for Daath (Knowledge) is Gnosis.

But it's easy to see this as meaning to be the salmon fighting ones way up stream and striving to work through all weaknesses.

Bruce Lee was asked, when do we stop reincarnating (paraphrased).

His answer: When We Live A Life Worth Remembering!

a reply to: Murgatroid

so in your opinion theirs no such thing as grace, salvation is only achieved through works?

but according to Romans 3:23 all I have to do is have faith and believe that Jesus is my Lord and savor and give my life over to him.

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,i through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

thiers also this

Mark 3:28-29

28 I promise you that any of the sinful things you say or do can be forgiven, no matter how terrible those things are. 29 But if you speak against the Holy Spirit, you can never be forgiven. That sin will be held against you forever.

originally posted by: Skyfloating

The question really is: Which Bible verse refers to eternal conscious, awake, alive torment?

What I found...

Num. 16:30, "But if the Lord brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the Lord . . . 33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly."

Matt. 8:12, "but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matt. 13:41-42, "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Rev. 14:9-11, "And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."”

Rev. 20:10, "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

I hesitated on saying pineal, but it was the very first thing that flashed, and so did a search narrow gate on my favorite gnostic site:

www.spiritofthescripture.com...
The Bible’s Divine Instruction: Watering your Mind, Body, and Soul in Meditation


This is good!

a reply to: Skyfloating

what does consciousness have to do with anything, first you claim it can't be forever and i proved that wrong. Now your asking if we are conscious, what the heck do i care if people in hell are conscious or not. what does that even matter.

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

the problem is that he can argue that you can cry and grind your teeth in your sleep. So that could be construed as not being awake or conscious.

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

The first one looks like it may allude to an earth cycle and real deaths in body.

The last part about this suffering taking place in the presence of God and Christ, that is the light always reaching out to heal you as you transform or throw off the mud, in other words, we need to work through our heavier issues that prevent lightness of heart, and many of us feel shame at hurting or not acting on hehalf, the things we didn't do for, loved ones and those around us, once we remember who they are.

From what I've read being discussed before, those words used in hebrew did not refer to a permanent hell, but to a place of transmutation or refining the dross being removed.

Brimstone is a purifying agent........!!!!!

www.biblestudytools.com...

Theion:

Definition

brimstone
divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease

Hence Healing!

originally posted by: iosolomon
I don't see why anyone hates Hitler. What did the jews ever do for this world?

Did your qu'ran teach you how to think like that? WOW. The subject of this thread is 'the myth of eternal damnation'. But reading stuff like this makes me think that maybe there should be eternal damnation.

originally posted by: bigcountry08
...so in your opinion theirs no such thing as grace, salvation is only achieved through works?

When the fat lady sings, my opinion won't amount to SQUAT...

God's opinion is all that matters.

The doctrine of once-saved-always-saved is a new belief introduced approximately fifty years ago by secular progressive clergy eager to lift the “burden” of God’s Word off the backs of unrepentant sinners. Prior to then there was not one major denomination that preached or believed the once-saved-always-saved lie many now consider Gospel.

The argument made by those preaching the biblically unsustainable doctrine is that nothing can separate us from God once we have been saved. These verses (John 10:28-29 ), like all Scripture, are true. They are also, as they pertain to the issue, irrelevant. They are so because they talk about the inability of anyone taking us from our Savior, while ignoring that we always have free will. Meaning, while we cannot be taken from Him, we can turn from Him, as that is our God-given right.

ONCE-SAVED-ALWAYS-SAVED IS A DEADLY LIE

If we misuse the Bible to support our pet theories and agendas, we WILL fall victim to the lies of Satan.

This is the source of all of these lies:

"What if there were people within the various Churches of God who covertly were guiding the members to slowly accept new ideas which are alien to the true faith and who were dedicated to destroying that faith at all costs?"

JESUIT-JEDI MINDTRICKS

The "church" has been infiltrated which is WHY it bares so little resemblance to the early Church.

"Every major religion in the world has been manufactured or infiltrated by the Illuminati..."

The Real Conspiracy the Jesuit infiltration of Christianity

I am convinced that many Fundamental Baptist churches are NOW pastored by Jesuits and Opus Dei agents. Many deacons and Sunday School teachers are now inside the Baptist movement teaching doctrines of Rome. LINK

"90% of the Southern Baptist hierarchy are Freemasons. There is also a high percentage of Christian leadership from the Lutheran and United Methodist churches are Masons. This would explain why Ecumenism has spread so easily. ...the goal is to infiltrate it with their compromising philosophies and attempt to destroy the Church from within."

Infiltration of Freemasonry

What if I were to tell you, that there is a vast Satanic conspiracy to deceive the masses of every society on earth? What if I were to tell you that the top leaders of the world’s religions were in league with the Devil? Would you think I’m crazy? I would! Yet, the truth is stranger than fiction! You have been lied to my friend. Few people in the world today are aware of just how much Satan has infiltrated organized religion. Link

"Every major religion in the world has been manufactured or infiltrated by the Illuminati to enslave and brainwash society. In essence, religion was the first form of mind control. The indoctrination of the masses by a "Trojan Horse" false religion has allowed the Illuminati to take control and work in secret for many, many years." Link

The Vatican has infiltrated, or neutered and spayed, virtually every denomination and organization in Christendom. Various means have been used, but Opus Dei has played a major role in this.

Virtually 100% of the world's seminaries are in the pocket of the Roman Whore in that they use her Bible via the Alexandrian Gnostic Greek texts.

I am fully persuaded that Opus Dei and the Jesuits have already planted many of their agents in Baptist and Fundamental churches and schools.

I am convinced that many Fundamental Baptist churches are NOW pastored by Jesuits and Opus Dei agents. Many deacons and Sunday School teachers are now inside the Baptist movement teaching doctrines of Rome. You need to read the following articles so that you can watch for the signs that you too have an hireling planted in your church by the Vatican.

OPUS DEI-- War on Protestantism

a reply to: iosolomon

So you have to do something for humanity to protect yourself from genocide? that's a pretty screwed up opinion. how about the holocaust could have been prevented if Hitler wasn't such a prick and decided to kill a crap load of people. you do know that it wasn't only Jews who were killed in the holocaust too right?

a reply to: Murgatroid

WOW that's a lot of anti-Catholic propaganda. I personally know some Opus Dei people. They aren't anything like what your youtube paranoia spouts. And none of the people at the Opus Dei meetings I met when I visited do anything even close to 'infiltrate Baptist Sunday Schools' or that kind of thing. They are simply prayerful and kind. That's it.