Skeptics: Do you want to be alone in the Universe?

Mamatus
While it is mathematically not possible to be alone in the Universe it is also mathematically likely that we will never meet anyone else living in it. The picture below shows just how far out into the universe our radio signals have moved (200 light years).

And do you think applying Drake's Formula, mathematically, with some stars estimated (by our low grade science and therefore possibly faulty) to be billions of years older than our star, that these civilizations would have advanced in science beyond our comprehension?

And they'd be in control.

Box of Rain

game over man
I'm enjoying the conversation Box of Rain, your name sounds great for a grunge band.

"Box of Rain" already has a connection to music; it is the name of a classic "Grateful Dead" song.

game over man
It is true things exist before we observe and interpret them. In our conversation we are using the term "aliens". Aliens might as well be an unknown variable.

Some people think they will look like us, some think they will at least be anatomically structured like humans, and some people think they could look like nothing we have ever imagined.

Finally some people are convinced we will never know.

To take this argument to the next logical step in association with the topic of this thread, if it is possible for aliens to exist without humans ever learning of their existence, then it logically follows that the universe could be devoid of other intelligent life, and humans may never learn that, either. BOTH of these potential truths of existence - both the fact that the universe has other life AND the fact that the universe has no other intelligent life - WOULD NOT be affected by human knowledge of those facts, NOR would either of those potential truths be affected if humans never learned those facts.

The true facts of existence - whatever those facts are - are unrelated to somebody or something having knowledge of those facts.

This also fits in with the title of this thread. What humans "want" has nothing to do with the TRUTH of existence. Aliens may exist or aliens may not exist, but whether or not humans "want" one or the other is not relevant. I think intelligent aliens do exist, but what I think (and what everyone else thinks) is not relevant to the truth of the matter.

If the universe is empty of life, humans may never learn that the universe is empty of life, but "existence in general" would not care if humans knew this or not. Similarly, if life does in fact exist in the universe, "existence in general" would not care if humans wanted, believed, or even had knowledge of these aliens.

edit on 4/4/2014 by Box of Rain because: (no reason given)

if it is possible for aliens to exist without humans ever learning of their existence, then it logically follows that the universe could be devoid of other intelligent life, and humans may never learn that, either.

What do you mean by aliens and other intelligent life?

That's really interesting to think of existence as something, or something that cares.

In order for us to understand existence, we must also exist.

Since we exist, is that evidence for other life to exist in the Universe?

reply to post by uncommitted


Ok sounds good. So at this point of our understanding and observations of the Universe that we me not be able to recognize intelligent life and we have zero proof of visitation.

Those are sound reasons to be skeptical.

What level of information would you need to change your opinion?

conundrummer

game over man
How can you imagine the unimaginable? You can't.

We can't imagine what aliens could be like.

But we can guess.

How can we guess without imagining?

Why can we guess but not imagine?

edit on 4/4/1414 by conundrummer because: (no reason given)

I see your point on what I wrote. Thank you

We can't know what aliens are like, but we can guess. I was continuing on that what aliens actually are, if they do exist, are unimaginable, but we can guess or imagine with our best intentions but we will never be able to guess or imagine what they are like in actuality.

I have watched documentaries on theoretical alien life, i.e. The Universe series, but do we really have any theoretical alien life other than history channel or ufology?

Are there any theories with detail about potential life in our solar system yet? Do we have any guesses what these potential microbes look like? Have sea life been ruled out already on the moons with oceans in our solar system? Or are we just working towards a surprise?

game over man
reply to post by uncommitted

 

Ok sounds good. So at this point of our understanding and observations of the Universe that we me not be able to recognize intelligent life and we have zero proof of visitation.

Those are sound reasons to be skeptical.

What level of information would you need to change your opinion?

Hi,

Change my opinion on what?

ET life - my personal opinion is that it is very highly probable, perhaps in a basic form even in our own solar system, but that is purely my opinion

Advanced civilisation ET life that has technology equal to or superior to our own - possible but let's face it, out of the millions of species on Earth only one (human) has achieved that, although I don't see the other species' being too upset about it. I can't see how my opinion on that will change anytime soon unless something amazing happens.

As above but with both the means and the will to travel the universe to Earth but then not to make themselves known to the planet as a whole - no idea, this is the one option that requires actual real proof and I have not seen any that satisfies me personally, but that is only my opinion.

reply to post by uncommitted


I'm basically at the same place you are with this.

I am almost 100% certain some sort of life is out there, and it is relatively common. I am also pretty certain that there are intelligent and technological civilizations out there, but those civilizations would obviously be less common that life itself (not all life will rise to the level of a technological civilization). Therefore, there may not be that many technological civilizations who live close to us, and who are living during the same time as our civilization (time is a factor, because civilizations come and go as time moves on).

So I feel there are only a few technological civilizations in our half of the galaxy that currently exist. Of those, there are even fewer who may possibly have some sort of space travel capabilities. As the number of potential ET civilizations who may potentially have the means and ability to visit Earth dwindles, the less of a chance that there actually are ET civilizations visiting Earth.

The above tells me that it is certainly possible that intelligent aliens would visit Earth, but the probability is not high enough for me to think it is likely. So at this point, I would need to see good, solid, hard evidence of alien visitation before I would say that the evidence proves it is happening.

Most of us here on ATS know of the level of evidence for alien visitation of earth, so it isn't a case of someone needing to tell me more evidence to "convince me". I know the evidence for alien visitation and I don't personally feel that the evidence rises to the level of "proof".

My main problem with the evidence of alien visitation is this: If they are here why don't they just land on the front lawn of CNN or the BBC or Al Jazera and say "here we are". Why do people feel it is so unlikely that an alien visiting earth would/could do this? Even if the aliens have some official rule forbidding it, it seems to me that some alien would have done it. I mean, if we are to believe that those other sightings are genuine, it doesn't seem as if they are very careful about not wanting to be seen.

Ironically (and seemingly contradictory), it is the very fact that we have reports of alien visitation that makes me think alien visitation is not real. If alien visitation reports are genuine, then that means that hiding/being secretive is NOT a huge priority to them, because (if alien reports are in fact genuine) they seem to be pretty sloppy about hiding and being secretive. It seems to me that at least one of these aliens would have clearly and publicly announced themselves for the world to see.

I think there is enough circumstantial evidence for me to think that aliens are out there, but less convincing evidence that they are visiting us.

uncommitted

game over man
reply to post by Harte

 

What?

That doesn't make sense.

I believe an observer plays an important role for existence. You don't. Cool.

Out of interest, based on your comment and this is only for me to understand, not a trick, do you believe if a tree falls in a forest and there is no-one there to hear it then it doesn't make a sound?

It will make a vibration and we perceive that as sound!
Don't ask how I know this!
That would be a very stupid question.
Home boy don't do stupid!

Now as far as being a skeptic: Yes, I am also a skeptic that has seen aliens up close, but I do not know what they are.
I know that they are real so I am more inclined to "LISTEN" to other reports with an open mind.
I have noticed that there are some folks here on this forum that tend to question such reports and give grief to the person
sharing what they have seen. That is a great way to stop others from sharing what they know with the people on this forum.

It is not wise to give grief or insult the people on this forum and expect to receive additional information from other members.
Yes, please question the reports, but without all of the insults no mater how innocent you think they are.
Try to put yourself in the shoes of the person that "may" have had a traumatic experience in their life and use good judgment regarding how you word you comments and/or questions.
That is all I ask from anyone that has an interest in this subject mater.

waltwillis

uncommitted

game over man
reply to post by Harte

 

What?

That doesn't make sense.

I believe an observer plays an important role for existence. You don't. Cool.

Out of interest, based on your comment and this is only for me to understand, not a trick, do you believe if a tree falls in a forest and there is no-one there to hear it then it doesn't make a sound?

It will make a vibration and we perceive that as sound!
Don't ask how I know this!
That would be a very stupid question.
Home boy don't do stupid!

Now as far as being a skeptic: Yes, I am also a skeptic that has seen aliens up close, but I do not know what they are.
I know that they are real so I am more inclined to "LISTEN" to other reports with an open mind.
I have noticed that there are some folks here on this forum that tend to question such reports and give grief to the person
sharing what they have seen. That is a great way to stop others from sharing what they know with the people on this forum.

It is not wise to give grief or insult the people on this forum and expect to receive additional information from other members.
Yes, please question the reports, but without all of the insults no mater how innocent you think they are.
Try to put yourself in the shoes of the person that "may" have had a traumatic experience in their life and use good judgment regarding how you word you comments and/or questions.
That is all I ask from anyone that has an interest in this subject mater.

Thank you, you totally missed the context of why I asked the question which was the poster (game over man) suggested the universe only exists because it is observed. The analogy I used was based on that logic. As for your other points, forgive me, I don't see a point in responding.

reply to post by uncommitted


Why visiting ET wouldn't want to say hello to our planet as a whole? Why do you think visiting ET must show themselves to the whole world? We have a lot of interesting things going on I think visiting ET would be on to that way early on...prior to arrival. That is why they are here.

Or theoretically why aliens would visit, and why they wouldn't reveal themselves either.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


We have plant life on earth that is highly advanced, intelligent aliens could be something unimaginable.

Whatever genuine sightings you think are the best, you ask yourself how could the aliens allow themselves to be detected by humans?

And that is a great question, I think it is possible those particular moments we were in the right place at the right time. It is possible they were unaware we could observe, track, or record them. ET could be visiting our planet constantly.

game over man
reply to post by uncommitted

 

Why visiting ET wouldn't want to say hello to our planet as a whole? Why do you think visiting ET must show themselves to the whole world? We have a lot of interesting things going on I think visiting ET would be on to that way early on...prior to arrival. That is why they are here.

Or theoretically why aliens would visit, and why they wouldn't reveal themselves either.

You state "That is why they are here" - so you think ET life, as in sentient extra terrestrial life is on this planet right now?

I don't think any visiting ET must or mustn't do anything, hardly for me to write the rule book. I just personally happen to believe the lack of anything that could be classed of proof leads me to believe they haven't - doesn't mean they never will, you could ask the question why do I often buy a lottery ticket when I have never had a big win - doesn't mean I won't the next time.

game over man
We have plant life on earth that is highly advanced, intelligent aliens could be something unimaginable.

Of course. They "could be" something unimaginable. However, show me some hard evidence that this "could be" is actually a fact happening right now.

I'm not arguing "is it possible that aliens could visit Earth", because I think it IS possible. What I'm arguing is "show me proof that this is more than just a possibility".

That's what most skeptics argue, too. Most of them are not arguing that alien visitation of Earth is an impossibility. They simply want to see proof that it is happening before they are convinced it is happening. Just because a person is not convinced that a phenomenon is occurring does not mean they think that phenomenon an impossibility in general.

game over man
Whatever genuine sightings you think are the best, you ask yourself how could the aliens allow themselves to be detected by humans?

And that is a great question, I think it is possible those particular moments we were in the right place at the right time. It is possible they were unaware we could observe, track, or record them. ET could be visiting our planet constantly.

That is sort of my point. If some UFO sightings really are alien-controlled ships, I can't believe that after all of these years of people having "caught a glimpse" of these alien ships that not one of these aliens ever felt the desire to land on the front lawn of the BBC or CNN and say "OK, I'm ready for my interview".

You can say "it may be against their rules to do that", but (if alien visitation is real) and if they are sloppy enough to have messed up many, many times before by unintentionally letting themselves be seen, I would think that after all of these years, at least one of these aliens would have "gone rogue" and decide to intentionally come out into the open. How are they so good at keeping it a secret?

We have all of these alleged reports of abductions, we have these alleged reports of aliens being seen walking around on earth, we have claims that aliens walked among ancient peoples...but never has ONE of those aliens clearly want to make his presence known to the world?

Dear Uncommitted,

It sounds like you should be committed to something other then yourself with your inability to listen and comprehend.

You may also have chosen the name "Nowhere Man" because of your lack of grounding in the reality that surrounds you.

My dogs seem to grasp and understand the meanings of words much better than you and doesn't bite the hand that shares either.

If you are afraid of hearing the information, then just listen without comment or grief given and all will be well.

Your thinking appears to be somewhat like a person with constipation of the brain.

You seem to enjoy finding fault with just about everyone's ideas and will most likely have a snide remark with the following:

www.youtube.com... Dying CIA agent tells all!

waltwillis
Dear Uncommitted,

It sounds like you should be committed to something other then yourself with your inability to listen and comprehend.

You may also have chosen the name "Nowhere Man" because of your lack of grounding in the reality that surrounds you.

My dogs seem to grasp and understand the meanings of words much better than you and doesn't bite the hand that shares either.

If you are afraid of hearing the information, then just listen without comment or grief given and all will be well.

Your thinking appears to be somewhat like a person with constipation of the brain.

You seem to enjoy finding fault with just about everyone's ideas and will most likely have a snide remark with the following:

www.youtube.com... Dying CIA agent tells all!

Well that's all a bit pathetic isn't it, oh dear. I don't agree with you so I'm an idiot - thanks for that.

The 'dying CIA agent' has done the rounds on ATS many times. You seem to think that it must be true, I'm not sure why someone who is not named and has nothing to back up his claims (including if he actually really worked for the CIA) should be trusted.... but then I'm not a gullible idiot who will pounce upon anything that validates their belief and take it for truth at face value - are you?

ETA: where have I found fault with anyones ideas? I only ask as you are doing the classic routine of saying that because someone doesn't support your view, whatever that is, but is more open minded, they are in some way opposed to your way of thinking. I stopped doing that myself roughly when I stopped wearing short trousers to school a long long time ago.

reply to post by uncommitted


I wrote that is why they are here to sound more powerful. In the next paragraph I wrote theoretically.

ET could still be visiting us if all ufology is wrong.

game over man
reply to post by uncommitted

 

I wrote that is why they are here to sound more powerful. In the next paragraph I wrote theoretically.

ET could still be visiting us if all ufology is wrong.

Vampires may be about to awaken (coming to the evening over here), zombies looking for their lunch and young wizards checking their spells. There is as much evidence for all of them as there currently is for ET visitation. If you use the word ufology for people who have a firm belief that we are being visited on a regular basis I'm not sure I understand your second sentence - they believe that totally - and good luck to them, some proof would be nice though.

reply to post by uncommitted


I've discussed numerous times where we are at with our space studies and what we want to accomplish one day and you think alien life is just another Halloween costume?

uncommitted

waltwillis
Dear Uncommitted,

It sounds like you should be committed to something other then yourself with your inability to listen and comprehend.

You may also have chosen the name "Nowhere Man" because of your lack of grounding in the reality that surrounds you.

My dogs seem to grasp and understand the meanings of words much better than you and doesn't bite the hand that shares either.

If you are afraid of hearing the information, then just listen without comment or grief given and all will be well.

Your thinking appears to be somewhat like a person with constipation of the brain.

You seem to enjoy finding fault with just about everyone's ideas and will most likely have a snide remark with the following:

www.youtube.com... Dying CIA agent tells all!

Well that's all a bit pathetic isn't it, oh dear. I don't agree with you so I'm an idiot - thanks for that.

The 'dying CIA agent' has done the rounds on ATS many times. You seem to think that it must be true, I'm not sure why someone who is not named and has nothing to back up his claims (including if he actually really worked for the CIA) should be trusted.... but then I'm not a gullible idiot who will pounce upon anything that validates their belief and take it for truth at face value - are you?

ETA: where have I found fault with anyones ideas? I only ask as you are doing the classic routine of saying that because someone doesn't support your view, whatever that is, but is more open minded, they are in some way opposed to your way of thinking. I stopped doing that myself roughly when I stopped wearing short trousers to school a long long time ago.

edit on 6-4-2014 by uncommitted because: (no reason given)

You are not a "Gullible" IDIOT. Now the word "Belief" as you have used to explain my way of thinking is not needed if I "Know" as a fact what I saw. It is NOT my way of thinking, it is my way of knowing that you have failed to grasp, and I never did wear little boy shorts!
Because you act so very contrary toward the people on this forum that want to come forward and share what they may have seen, I have found it necessary to come to their defense as a way to encourage others to share their reports of strange things.
question without being a grief giving bully and I will respect your points of view, but if you continue to bully and or badger others I will do the same to you!
Fair is fair and all is fair in love and forums.

waltwillis

uncommitted

waltwillis
Dear Uncommitted,

It sounds like you should be committed to something other then yourself with your inability to listen and comprehend.

You may also have chosen the name "Nowhere Man" because of your lack of grounding in the reality that surrounds you.

My dogs seem to grasp and understand the meanings of words much better than you and doesn't bite the hand that shares either.

If you are afraid of hearing the information, then just listen without comment or grief given and all will be well.

Your thinking appears to be somewhat like a person with constipation of the brain.

You seem to enjoy finding fault with just about everyone's ideas and will most likely have a snide remark with the following:

www.youtube.com... Dying CIA agent tells all!

Well that's all a bit pathetic isn't it, oh dear. I don't agree with you so I'm an idiot - thanks for that.

The 'dying CIA agent' has done the rounds on ATS many times. You seem to think that it must be true, I'm not sure why someone who is not named and has nothing to back up his claims (including if he actually really worked for the CIA) should be trusted.... but then I'm not a gullible idiot who will pounce upon anything that validates their belief and take it for truth at face value - are you?

ETA: where have I found fault with anyones ideas? I only ask as you are doing the classic routine of saying that because someone doesn't support your view, whatever that is, but is more open minded, they are in some way opposed to your way of thinking. I stopped doing that myself roughly when I stopped wearing short trousers to school a long long time ago.

edit on 6-4-2014 by uncommitted because: (no reason given)

You are not a "Gullible" IDIOT. Now the word "Belief" as you have used to explain my way of thinking is not needed if I "Know" as a fact what I saw. It is NOT my way of thinking, it is my way of knowing that you have failed to grasp, and I never did wear little boy shorts!
Because you act so very contrary toward the people on this forum that want to come forward and share what they may have seen, I have found it necessary to come to their defense as a way to encourage others to share their reports of strange things.
question without being a grief giving bully and I will respect your points of view, but if you continue to bully and or badger others I will do the same to you!
Fair is fair and all is fair in love and forums.

I'm really not sure what you are talking about. Where have I bullied anyone? I think you may want to look a little about what you are saying and why you are saying it. Ah well, do as you will, it's an open forum.

game over man
reply to post by uncommitted

 

I've discussed numerous times where we are at with our space studies and what we want to accomplish one day and you think alien life is just another Halloween costume?

Eh? What Hallowe'en costume is that?

You suggested that ET life is here, right here, right now. I suggested nothing of the sort but suggested that there is as much CURRENT evidence as ET life visiting Earth as there is of certain other types of life that make the Hollywood red carpet (if you haven't looked, many people on ATS think that the number of movies associated with Alien life is a subtle form of disclosure).