Skeptics: Do you want to be alone in the Universe?

uncommitted
...many people on ATS think that the number of movies associated with Alien life is a subtle form of disclosure...

Yeah -- I've seen that argument on ATS before. However, there have always been movies made about aliens, even MORE SO back in the 1950s, when "aliens" stood in allegorically for the cold war menace of communism. Even before that, pop-culture fiction of the 1930s often included aliens, such as the Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon serials. Heck, one of the first pop-culture movies ever made (1902's A Trip to the Moon) included alien "moon men".

If aliens in movies today are a subtle form of disclosure in Hollywood, then Hollywood has been subtly disclosing for going on for more than 75 years. So I never really bought into this argument.

although I realize you weren't necessarily agreeing that this was subtle disclosure.

Soylent Green Is People

However, I also think it is possible that intelligent space-faring life is few and far between, and they have not yet come across the evidence that we are here (our radio waves have only traveled an EXTREMELY short distance in the 100 years we have been broadcasting, and even the signs of civilization in our atmosphere have only travel MAYBE a short 3000 light years. Signs of an industrial civilization even a shorter distance -- maybe only 500 light years),

I personally think its far more likely that whatever is/was happening, I.e. Visitations, et. al. Is more closer than we realize, much much closer. Anyway, that being said, the argument about "small planet v massive universe" = Earth as a grain of lost sand is a bit silly. If nothing else, reflects our genuine lack of imagination and inavation making us il equipped to engage with "them" anyway. My point being, we think in a Type-0 civilization mentality.

I'd be willing to wager if an advanced civilization at type 2 or higher and were capable of traversing the universe and were interested in finding oversized baboons warring with each other, than the size of our planet or the vastness of the universe would likely NOT be an issue. Nor our silly radio pings.....

Rosinitiate
...I'd be willing to wager if an advanced civilization at type 2 or higher and were capable of traversing the universe and were interested in finding oversized baboons warring with each other, than the size of our planet or the vastness of the universe would likely NOT be an issue. Nor our silly radio pings....

It's not "radio" per se that is the issue, but the fact that any outward sign at all (NOT just our radio waves) that the Earth has intelligent life or a technological civilization still moves very slowly. That outward sign the our technological civilization is here still only moves at the speed of light -- which is very slow when talking about galactic distances.

It may be true that our radio waves have traveled nearly nowhere in the past 100 years (the 200 LY diameter bubble of our radio waves is just a dot compared to the galaxy...HOWEVER, let's ignore even that.

Let's say that an alien could detect the signs of industrial pollution in the light of our atmosphere, which would indicate a technological civilization. We think that one day very soon, WE will be able to detect signs of industrial pollution in the light from exoplanet atmospheres; so the idea is not far-fetched. That industrial pollution has only been in our atmosphere for maybe 500 years -- 1000 years if you want to be really liberal with it. So that means that any sign of that pollution in our atmosphere has only traveled 500 to 1000 light years. That's not really very far -- only 5% to 10% (at best) of the way across the galaxy. So the outward signs of our technological civilization have not really had that much time to go very far at all.

Let's even be more liberal, and say that an alien race could detect just life processes in the gases in our atmosphere. If so, then aliens from a couple billion light years away could detect life on earth. That's great, but would "life signs" make earth interesting enough to be worth a visit? I think there are probably MANY planets in the galaxy with life, so what would make Earth's life special enough to them to make them want to come here?

Soylent Green Is People

Rosinitiate
...I'd be willing to wager if an advanced civilization at type 2 or higher and were capable of traversing the universe and were interested in finding oversized baboons warring with each other, than the size of our planet or the vastness of the universe would likely NOT be an issue. Nor our silly radio pings....

Let's even be more liberal, and say that an alien race could detect just life processes in the gases in our atmosphere. If so, then aliens from a couple billion light years away could detect life on earth. That's great, but would "life signs" make earth interesting enough to be worth a visit? I think there are probably MANY planets in the galaxy with life, so what would make Earth's life special enough to them to make them want to come here?

Thanks for the response, and I understand your POV but I think you missed my point. You are still viewing things from a Type-0 mentality (albeit highly trained).

But at Type-3 civilization wouldn't have any need for such sciences. There are many things yet to be discovered. Such as potential "life markers" carried out into the universe within another deminsion we can't yet see or measure traveling beyond the speed of light......I know, I know....physics and all that, yet we have only a 4 year olds understanding of this universe.

I do appreciate you suspending your scientific belief, or rather liberalizing them to see other potentials. I think "life signs" is worthy of looking into for potential markers but probably not in the manner you are thinking. I presume your thinking of detecting chemical markers as we on Mars and such?

And if you note my original post, I do acknowledge I don't think we are "special" enough to have aliens traveling lightyears to come play with us. If anything, they're it under our noses which makes it even more hilarious that science couldn't detect something so close.

It reminds me of my childhood. When I was young like 15 and 16, my friends and I would score alcohol and would literally drink in the police stations parking lot. Why? Well the was an arcade next door and it was always the last place the cops ever thought to look. I mean.....who would be that dumb.

Soylent Green Is People

game over man
We have plant life on earth that is highly advanced, intelligent aliens could be something unimaginable.

Of course. They "could be" something unimaginable. However, show me some hard evidence that this "could be" is actually a fact happening right now.

I'm not arguing "is it possible that aliens could visit Earth", because I think it IS possible. What I'm arguing is "show me proof that this is more than just a possibility".

That's what most skeptics argue, too. Most of them are not arguing that alien visitation of Earth is an impossibility. They simply want to see proof that it is happening before they are convinced it is happening. Just because a person is not convinced that a phenomenon is occurring does not mean they think that phenomenon an impossibility in general.

game over man
Whatever genuine sightings you think are the best, you ask yourself how could the aliens allow themselves to be detected by humans?

And that is a great question, I think it is possible those particular moments we were in the right place at the right time. It is possible they were unaware we could observe, track, or record them. ET could be visiting our planet constantly.

That is sort of my point. If some UFO sightings really are alien-controlled ships, I can't believe that after all of these years of people having "caught a glimpse" of these alien ships that not one of these aliens ever felt the desire to land on the front lawn of the BBC or CNN and say "OK, I'm ready for my interview".

You can say "it may be against their rules to do that", but (if alien visitation is real) and if they are sloppy enough to have messed up many, many times before by unintentionally letting themselves be seen, I would think that after all of these years, at least one of these aliens would have "gone rogue" and decide to intentionally come out into the open. How are they so good at keeping it a secret?

We have all of these alleged reports of abductions, we have these alleged reports of aliens being seen walking around on earth, we have claims that aliens walked among ancient peoples...but never has ONE of those aliens clearly want to make his presence known to the world?

edit on 4/6/2014 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)

Ok this is what I'm talking about with skeptics, "show me." Skeptics don't look. Show you proof that advanced life can evolve other than humans? I don't recall your explanation or excuse why you lack detail in your devil's advocate rebuttal? Please let me know why you don't have to, something I mentioned about self entitlement earlier.

To politely answer your question, I haven't had the time to research and post something you can read up on. All I can do right now is have a conversation, so my apologies.

So regardless of what you read from ufology, you said visitation is possible. So why would it be possible that ET might not expose themselves? Do you not see your biased opinion? You don't even brainstorm a reason other than their "rules".

Thank you

uncommitted

game over man
reply to post by uncommitted

 

I've discussed numerous times where we are at with our space studies and what we want to accomplish one day and you think alien life is just another Halloween costume?

Eh? What Hallowe'en costume is that?

You suggested that ET life is here, right here, right now. I suggested nothing of the sort but suggested that there is as much CURRENT evidence as ET life visiting Earth as there is of certain other types of life that make the Hollywood red carpet (if you haven't looked, many people on ATS think that the number of movies associated with Alien life is a subtle form of disclosure).

I think alien life could be visiting us on the comparison of our space studies, where we plan to be with technology in the future with the possibility other life in the universe could be doing the same thing or even better.

You can couple in AA theory or ufology to that above statement if you please.

Once we observe alien extremophiles and once we observe wormhole technology, then skeptical opinions will change.

If you won't even consider it without proof, excuse me if I'm wrong but isn't that no different than the religious belief of atheism?

game over man
...Ok this is what I'm talking about with skeptics, "show me." Skeptics don't look. Show you proof that advanced life can evolve other than humans? I don't recall your explanation or excuse why you lack detail in your devil's advocate rebuttal? Please let me know why you don't have to, something I mentioned about self entitlement earlier.

I can't prove that advanced life other than humans can evolve -- but that is sort of the basis of my whole argument.

I personally THINK that alien life can evolve that is more advanced than humans -- I mean, why not? I also think/believe that there ARE intelligent aliens out there who are more advanced than humans.

However (and this is important), my beliefs/what I "think" is not at all relevant to the actual Truth of it. The Truth of the matter (the true answer to the question "Do advanced intelligent ETs exist or not") is not at all based on what I believe. I could be wrong.

So in the end, I certainly "believe" that life exists out there, but I have no hard proof. Therefore (without proof), I am not so arrogant to think that what I believe is really the truth of the matter.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


For the record I am completely against the Hollywood disclosure/preparation alien theory.

Close encounters of the third kind is a great film based upon previous government research. I think you can make an argument for putting the idea out to the public from the writers and director opinion on the subject. We also have the movie Interstellar coming out.

But something grander than a writer or director's opinion? I don't think so...

Thanks

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


Don't you think what you just said is basically a given on the subject?

For the record everyone, what the skeptics are writing in this thread about "I'll entertain the idea, but I need proof..."

I'm like this with ufology.

Countries releasing UFO documents, the Pope's belief, Canadian Prime Defense Minister's statement, credible people's public quotes, Presidents and astronauts, whistle blowers, Roswell, Area 51, phoenix lights, Texas sighting (forgot the city), abduction cases, etc etc...I'll entertain these specific topics case by case, but need proof.

Ufology however does not discredit the possibility of ET visitation. That is just an opinion. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a piece of entertainment that discredits science other than anything paranormal? Maybe social or anthropology sciences due to the ignorant TV programs? I have no idea.

game over man

uncommitted

game over man
reply to post by uncommitted

 

I've discussed numerous times where we are at with our space studies and what we want to accomplish one day and you think alien life is just another Halloween costume?

Eh? What Hallowe'en costume is that?

You suggested that ET life is here, right here, right now. I suggested nothing of the sort but suggested that there is as much CURRENT evidence as ET life visiting Earth as there is of certain other types of life that make the Hollywood red carpet (if you haven't looked, many people on ATS think that the number of movies associated with Alien life is a subtle form of disclosure).

I think alien life could be visiting us on the comparison of our space studies, where we plan to be with technology in the future with the possibility other life in the universe could be doing the same thing or even better.

You can couple in AA theory or ufology to that above statement if you please.

Once we observe alien extremophiles and once we observe wormhole technology, then skeptical opinions will change.

If you won't even consider it without proof, excuse me if I'm wrong but isn't that no different than the religious belief of atheism?

You seem to be responding without reading. I said I had no opinion as there is nothing to base it on. How does that turn into 'not considering without proof'?

BTW, in a further post you say 'the popes belief'. Are you referring to a statement from the Vatican when the previous pope was in office saying they had no problem with the thought of life elsewhere? So what? Isn't that saying exactly the same thing - no proof at this time but open to the concept?

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


What makes earth so special to be visited? Why even bother pondering that question. An easy answer earth is the most interesting of all the planets and moons in our solar system.

There must be other grand places to visit? Why is your skepticism not consistent here? Wouldn't a sskeptic say there is probably no where interesting to visit?

So why do humans visit our dead, boring, lifeless solar system?

reply to post by game over man

After an all too brief respite, your comments seem to be directed back to skeptics (instead of unbelievers as you said for a page or two), over-generalizing them, assuming traits and actions and thoughts about them, etc.

This thread has seemed to have taken 3 steps back.

Who said there may not be life in oceans on moons or microbial life in our solar system?

Who said definitively that there is no life in the universe?

Why forget that light can only light (AND therefore radio waves) can only travel so fast, no matter the distances--be they immense or relatively short?

Once again, just because there is no proof yet, it doesn't mean anybody has "given up" or "stopped looking".

All of this been covered numerous times in this thread.

Is there a disease of memory loss in this thread?
...or does the OP just like to argue the same points repeatedly?

reply to post by game over man

Wouldn't a sskeptic say there is probably no where interesting to visit?

Why would a skeptic necessarily say that? You are painting with an entirely too broad a brush, my friend. I'm skeptical, maybe more than most, in fact...

But why would anyone say there's no where interesting to visit?

The universe is going to be full of wonders to see, even if there's not a speck of life (unlikely) anywhere to be found.

game over man
...There must be other grand places to visit? Why is your skepticism not consistent here? Wouldn't a sskeptic say there is probably no where interesting to visit?

Why in the world would I (or a good skeptic) say that? I think (as I feel other ATS members who think similarly as I do) that there most likely are incredibly interesting worlds out there. Personally, I think it unlikely that our solar system is decidedly unique. Odds are, we are average -- because that's the way odds work.

Granted, I'm not saying that it is impossible that our solar system holds some uniquely interesting characteristics that another alien will find worthy to visit. But the point is, I can't know that is true without hard evidence. I can certainly believe it is possible (as I do believe), but I can't know it without proof.

So why do humans visit our dead, boring, lifeless solar system?

When did I ever say our solar system was dead, boring and lifeless?

In fact, I think there is a good possibility that life exists in the underground ocean of Enceladus, and there may even be some weird hydrogen-eating/methane-drinking organism on Titan. I have created posts and threads that have discussed these potential places we may find life. Personally, I think it is likely that there is microbial life somewhere else in our solar system, whether it be on Enceladus, Titan, Europa, or maybe elsewhere. Again, you seem to be engaging in making strawman arguments and over-generalizations.

As for our solar system being "boring". I also never said that, but boring may be a relative phrase. Humans may find the different environments in the solar system to be exciting, while a more space-savvy alien race may find it "humdrum" or a case of "That's nothing special -- I've seen similar things before"...

...or maybe not. I can't prove it either way, so I'll simply say "I don't know the real answer to that".

Saying "I don't know" is not a dirty word. Nor is it being closed-minded. It is simply understanding the current limitations of knowledge, and not overstepping the bounds of that limited knowledge by making things up to fill in those knowledge gaps, and then calling those made-up things "facts".

reply to post by seagull


You guys are answering my questions with more questions.

A point was made why would aliens visit earth, and I asked why would humans visit anywhere?

Pretty straight forward....

reply to post by Chamberf=6


You again....you refuse to talk about any of the subject matter with detail and reply to all my posts with a raised eye brow scolding me on you asked this but you should have asked this, etc etc....

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


I'm going to pass on going point by point of your post, but why is our world not unique?

Please let me know how we are not unique in this empty observable universe.....

game over man
reply to post by seagull

 

You guys are answering my questions with more questions.

A point was made why would aliens visit earth, and I asked why would humans visit anywhere?

Pretty straight forward....

If aliens can travel the galaxy (and if they can get here, they can travel at least through part of the galaxy), what makes earth necessarily more interesting than the other millions of worlds that they may also be able to visit?

That is assuming they know details about earth to begin with.

If the argument goes that life is everywhere in the galaxy and there are civilizations all around us, what makes earth necessarily as good a place to go than those other civilizations and that other life (again, assuming that the aliens know about us).

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


This is what I'm asking you. Do you not have any thoughts why someone would visit us? You can't think of a few reasons? You and others are consistent with fully rejecting any motive to check out our solar system. Why?

game over man
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

 

This is what I'm asking you. Do you not have any thoughts why someone would visit us? You can't think of a few reasons? You and others are consistent with fully rejecting any motive to check out or solar system. Why?

I can think of a lot of potential reasons. But we are talking "proof", not "potential reasons".

I'm not sure how listing a bunch of reasons why aliens may want to visit us amounts to proof that aliens are visiting us.


Edit to add:
Besides, I can also think of potential scenarios that intelligent aliens may not even know we (our technological civilization) are here.

So we are back to "I don't know". I believe in other intelligent life, but I don't know about other intelligent life.