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Russia declares war on Ukraine. Live updates from inside Ukraine

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posted on Apr, 11 2014 @ 09:16 AM
link   
You both fail.

Same site, same news, just get informed.


Russia Returns Favor, Sees Chinese Yuan As World Reserve Currency

Following China's unwillingness to vote against Russia at the UN and yesterday's news that China will sue Ukraine for $3bn loan repayment, it seems Russia is returning the favor. Speaking at the Chinese Economic Development Forum, ITAR-TASS reports, the Chief Economist of Russia's largest bank stated that "China's Yuan may become the third reserve currency in the in the future."



Managing Director and Chief Economist of investment company Sberbank Yevgeny Gavrilenkov said at the 15th governmental Chinese economic development forum in the Chinese capital on Sunday (via ITAR-TASS):

"China’s yuan (renminbi) may become a third reserve currency in the world in the future"



"This forecast can be made on figures of domestic economic growth. Probably the country will keep high GDP growth rate and the GDP volume will increase to around 14-16 trillion U.S. dollars for a brief period of time, the indicators comparable to the European Union and the United States.



Meanwhile, Chinese securities are more attractive for the countries that have a surplus in economy, particularly the Middle East states; and China will obviously follow the path of securing the country’s assets,"


They been working on this deal for years, first signing was back in 2010;

"China-Russia currency agreement further threatens U.S. dollar"

www.ibtimes.com...

Gas deal is based on the Russian-Chinese currency agreement and will completely bypass the dollar, so world market pricing in dollars is completely not relevant.

That's the entire point, that's why it's the Holy Grail deal for both Russia and China.

For Russia it's the end of dependency on the dollar, for China it is energy surplus with out dependency on US politics.




posted on Apr, 11 2014 @ 09:26 AM
link   

renden
You both fail.

Same site, same news, just get informed.


Russia Returns Favor, Sees Chinese Yuan As World Reserve Currency

Following China's unwillingness to vote against Russia at the UN and yesterday's news that China will sue Ukraine for $3bn loan repayment, it seems Russia is returning the favor. Speaking at the Chinese Economic Development Forum, ITAR-TASS reports, the Chief Economist of Russia's largest bank stated that "China's Yuan may become the third reserve currency in the in the future."



Managing Director and Chief Economist of investment company Sberbank Yevgeny Gavrilenkov said at the 15th governmental Chinese economic development forum in the Chinese capital on Sunday (via ITAR-TASS):

"China’s yuan (renminbi) may become a third reserve currency in the world in the future"



"This forecast can be made on figures of domestic economic growth. Probably the country will keep high GDP growth rate and the GDP volume will increase to around 14-16 trillion U.S. dollars for a brief period of time, the indicators comparable to the European Union and the United States.



Meanwhile, Chinese securities are more attractive for the countries that have a surplus in economy, particularly the Middle East states; and China will obviously follow the path of securing the country’s assets,"


They been working on this deal for years, first signing was back in 2010;

"China-Russia currency agreement further threatens U.S. dollar"

www.ibtimes.com...

Gas deal is based on the Russian-Chinese currency agreement and will completely bypass the dollar, so world market pricing in dollars is completely not relevant.

That's the entire point, that's why it's the Holy Grail deal for both Russia and China.

For Russia it's the end of dependency on the dollar, for China it is energy surplus with out dependency on US politics.



You do relize your statement makes zero sense right? Of course it has a value on the world market in fact if Chinsa smart theyll set the price low enough and resell some of it to people Russia wont be able to. As far as currency it has a value in the world market but i guess you are unaware of this. The other part is Chine will be able to set the value of the Ruble as i said Chinas got a sweet deal coming they control the Russian economy.



posted on Apr, 11 2014 @ 09:34 AM
link   

DJW001
reply to post by renden
 



China already offered to buy all the gas, that's why it's called market economy, and it's up to Russians to decide whom to sell to, and at what prices.


Wrong. It is up to the buyer to decide what they are willing to pay. China will bid very low, since the West will not be buying at all. Russia's economy is collapsing, all thanks to Putin.


I agree, Putin is complete idiot, leading his country into a one more disaster.

Russia is not a federation but a dictatorship, where all decisions are made by one man only, supreme leader Putin.

Bad for Russia, Putin has gone insane.

Russian economy is crumbling, Russians are picking the garbage from the streets and running for the mountains.

State sponsored propaganda is reaching it's maximum while internet is completely controlled - only few websites are allowed to exist.

Those surviving journalists who dare to speak the truth are aggressively hunt down and shot on the spot, without trial.

Minorities are threatened daily.

White Russians are burning villages and raping immigrants without any control.

Russian gas and oil reserves are almost finished, no country in the world want to have any business with Russia except for China which is already preparing for the war after they exhaust Russia with one - sided gas and oil deals.

Russian army is in shatters, there are reports by foreign agencies of soldiers committing suicides almost everyday while thousands are deserting.

In one word, Russia will soon be rock desert inhabited by brainwashed rabid human zombies and one man to rule them all - Putin.

edit on 11-4-2014 by demus because: washing the brainwash



posted on Apr, 11 2014 @ 10:12 AM
link   
reply to post by dragonridr
 


Russia has already had to spend billions to prop their currency up on the international market as fallout from their invasion of Ukraine. the article below is from mid march and it does not reflect the outflow from Russia's decision to annex Crimea.

March 14 2014 - Russian markets hit before Crimea vote


The Russian central bank said Friday it would keep rates at 7% for the coming months. It jacked them up earlier this month from 5.5% to stem the flight of capital and keep inflation under control. It has also spent billions trying to prop up the ruble.

Analysts at Russian investment bank Renaissance Capital estimate that investors yanked $33 billion out of the country in the first two months of the year. And that number could reach $55 billion by the end of March if Crimea votes in favor of joining Russia.

"We believe this might lead to a limited ratcheting up of sanctions on Russia, but with little direct economic impact," the bank said. "However, plenty of negative headlines and second round effects are likely to emerge."

By comparison, Russia suffered $63 billion in capital outflows in the whole of 2013.


The question then becomes exactly what actions will Putin take when money runs low? While I can see the Russian position of trying to remove the US dollar, they run into the issue of their own and Chinese currency issues. Russia is considered a risk by investors right now because they don't know what the outcome is going to be with regards to Crimea and they also don't know if the conflict will end there or if it will continue.

Then you have China, who has been having issues for years over their currency and the Chinese governments manipulation of their currency to create trade imbalances in their favor. When China joined the WTO their currency manipulation was addressed, with China agreeing to allow their currency to free float on the international market. They were given a 5 year window to adjust, and thus far they have failed to meet the obligations.

It is risky, and to a point detrimental, for Russia and China to make an attempt to use their own currencies as a global standard.



posted on Apr, 11 2014 @ 10:34 AM
link   

renden

Gas deal is based on the Russian-Chinese currency agreement and will completely bypass the dollar, so world market pricing in dollars is completely not relevant.

That's the entire point, that's why it's the Holy Grail deal for both Russia and China.

For Russia it's the end of dependency on the dollar, for China it is energy surplus with out dependency on US politics.


For USA/EU is is the end of society as we know it.

For Russia and China to find their "holy grail" it will be upon a path of blood. For power does not give up power easily, and never peacefully.

Money = Power

When USD = $0.00; all you are left with is Power = Power... WAR

God Bless,



posted on Apr, 11 2014 @ 10:35 AM
link   

renden
You both fail.

Same site, same news, just get informed.


Russia Returns Favor, Sees Chinese Yuan As World Reserve Currency

Following China's unwillingness to vote against Russia at the UN and yesterday's news that China will sue Ukraine for $3bn loan repayment, it seems Russia is returning the favor. Speaking at the Chinese Economic Development Forum, ITAR-TASS reports, the Chief Economist of Russia's largest bank stated that "China's Yuan may become the third reserve currency in the in the future."



Managing Director and Chief Economist of investment company Sberbank Yevgeny Gavrilenkov said at the 15th governmental Chinese economic development forum in the Chinese capital on Sunday (via ITAR-TASS):

"China’s yuan (renminbi) may become a third reserve currency in the world in the future"



"This forecast can be made on figures of domestic economic growth. Probably the country will keep high GDP growth rate and the GDP volume will increase to around 14-16 trillion U.S. dollars for a brief period of time, the indicators comparable to the European Union and the United States.



Meanwhile, Chinese securities are more attractive for the countries that have a surplus in economy, particularly the Middle East states; and China will obviously follow the path of securing the country’s assets,"


They been working on this deal for years, first signing was back in 2010;

"China-Russia currency agreement further threatens U.S. dollar"

www.ibtimes.com...

Gas deal is based on the Russian-Chinese currency agreement and will completely bypass the dollar, so world market pricing in dollars is completely not relevant.

That's the entire point, that's why it's the Holy Grail deal for both Russia and China.

For Russia it's the end of dependency on the dollar, for China it is energy surplus with out dependency on US politics.


You got four stars for denying reality. I can only assume that years of Communist propaganda have rendered Russians incapable of understanding how markets work.

Edit to add: For Russia, it is dependency on Chinese markets. For China, it is cheap energy, which they can sell to Europe at a profit.
edit on 11-4-2014 by DJW001 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2014 @ 10:37 AM
link   

DJW001

renden
You both fail.

Same site, same news, just get informed.


Russia Returns Favor, Sees Chinese Yuan As World Reserve Currency

Following China's unwillingness to vote against Russia at the UN and yesterday's news that China will sue Ukraine for $3bn loan repayment, it seems Russia is returning the favor. Speaking at the Chinese Economic Development Forum, ITAR-TASS reports, the Chief Economist of Russia's largest bank stated that "China's Yuan may become the third reserve currency in the in the future."



Managing Director and Chief Economist of investment company Sberbank Yevgeny Gavrilenkov said at the 15th governmental Chinese economic development forum in the Chinese capital on Sunday (via ITAR-TASS):

"China’s yuan (renminbi) may become a third reserve currency in the world in the future"



"This forecast can be made on figures of domestic economic growth. Probably the country will keep high GDP growth rate and the GDP volume will increase to around 14-16 trillion U.S. dollars for a brief period of time, the indicators comparable to the European Union and the United States.



Meanwhile, Chinese securities are more attractive for the countries that have a surplus in economy, particularly the Middle East states; and China will obviously follow the path of securing the country’s assets,"


They been working on this deal for years, first signing was back in 2010;

"China-Russia currency agreement further threatens U.S. dollar"

www.ibtimes.com...

Gas deal is based on the Russian-Chinese currency agreement and will completely bypass the dollar, so world market pricing in dollars is completely not relevant.

That's the entire point, that's why it's the Holy Grail deal for both Russia and China.

For Russia it's the end of dependency on the dollar, for China it is energy surplus with out dependency on US politics.


You got four stars for denying reality. I can only assume that years of Communist propaganda have rendered Russians incapable of understanding how markets work.


The same could be said of Capatilist propaganda, free market et al. Well, markets are manipulated and rigged.

Communism in Russia has not existed for decades.
edit on 11-4-2014 by pookle because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2014 @ 10:40 AM
link   

pookle

DJW001

renden
You both fail.

Same site, same news, just get informed.


Russia Returns Favor, Sees Chinese Yuan As World Reserve Currency

Following China's unwillingness to vote against Russia at the UN and yesterday's news that China will sue Ukraine for $3bn loan repayment, it seems Russia is returning the favor. Speaking at the Chinese Economic Development Forum, ITAR-TASS reports, the Chief Economist of Russia's largest bank stated that "China's Yuan may become the third reserve currency in the in the future."



Managing Director and Chief Economist of investment company Sberbank Yevgeny Gavrilenkov said at the 15th governmental Chinese economic development forum in the Chinese capital on Sunday (via ITAR-TASS):

"China’s yuan (renminbi) may become a third reserve currency in the world in the future"



"This forecast can be made on figures of domestic economic growth. Probably the country will keep high GDP growth rate and the GDP volume will increase to around 14-16 trillion U.S. dollars for a brief period of time, the indicators comparable to the European Union and the United States.



Meanwhile, Chinese securities are more attractive for the countries that have a surplus in economy, particularly the Middle East states; and China will obviously follow the path of securing the country’s assets,"


They been working on this deal for years, first signing was back in 2010;

"China-Russia currency agreement further threatens U.S. dollar"

www.ibtimes.com...

Gas deal is based on the Russian-Chinese currency agreement and will completely bypass the dollar, so world market pricing in dollars is completely not relevant.

That's the entire point, that's why it's the Holy Grail deal for both Russia and China.

For Russia it's the end of dependency on the dollar, for China it is energy surplus with out dependency on US politics.


You got four stars for denying reality. I can only assume that years of Communist propaganda have rendered Russians incapable of understanding how markets work.


The same could be said of Capatilist propaganda, free market et al. Well, markets are manipulated and rigged.

Communism in Russia has not existed for decades.
edit on 11-4-2014 by pookle because: (no reason given)


Is the irony intentional?



posted on Apr, 11 2014 @ 10:55 AM
link   

DJW001

pookle

DJW001

renden
You both fail.

Same site, same news, just get informed.


Russia Returns Favor, Sees Chinese Yuan As World Reserve Currency

Following China's unwillingness to vote against Russia at the UN and yesterday's news that China will sue Ukraine for $3bn loan repayment, it seems Russia is returning the favor. Speaking at the Chinese Economic Development Forum, ITAR-TASS reports, the Chief Economist of Russia's largest bank stated that "China's Yuan may become the third reserve currency in the in the future."



Managing Director and Chief Economist of investment company Sberbank Yevgeny Gavrilenkov said at the 15th governmental Chinese economic development forum in the Chinese capital on Sunday (via ITAR-TASS):

"China’s yuan (renminbi) may become a third reserve currency in the world in the future"



"This forecast can be made on figures of domestic economic growth. Probably the country will keep high GDP growth rate and the GDP volume will increase to around 14-16 trillion U.S. dollars for a brief period of time, the indicators comparable to the European Union and the United States.



Meanwhile, Chinese securities are more attractive for the countries that have a surplus in economy, particularly the Middle East states; and China will obviously follow the path of securing the country’s assets,"


They been working on this deal for years, first signing was back in 2010;

"China-Russia currency agreement further threatens U.S. dollar"

www.ibtimes.com...

Gas deal is based on the Russian-Chinese currency agreement and will completely bypass the dollar, so world market pricing in dollars is completely not relevant.

That's the entire point, that's why it's the Holy Grail deal for both Russia and China.

For Russia it's the end of dependency on the dollar, for China it is energy surplus with out dependency on US politics.


You got four stars for denying reality. I can only assume that years of Communist propaganda have rendered Russians incapable of understanding how markets work.


The same could be said of Capatilist propaganda, free market et al. Well, markets are manipulated and rigged.

Communism in Russia has not existed for decades.
edit on 11-4-2014 by pookle because: (no reason given)


Is the irony intentional?


Which century are you living in?

No irony intended.



posted on Apr, 11 2014 @ 11:00 AM
link   

Xcathdra
reply to post by dragonridr
 


Russia has already had to spend billions to prop their currency up on the international market as fallout from their invasion of Ukraine. the article below is from mid march and it does not reflect the outflow from Russia's decision to annex Crimea.

March 14 2014 - Russian markets hit before Crimea vote


The Russian central bank said Friday it would keep rates at 7% for the coming months. It jacked them up earlier this month from 5.5% to stem the flight of capital and keep inflation under control. It has also spent billions trying to prop up the ruble.

Analysts at Russian investment bank Renaissance Capital estimate that investors yanked $33 billion out of the country in the first two months of the year. And that number could reach $55 billion by the end of March if Crimea votes in favor of joining Russia.

"We believe this might lead to a limited ratcheting up of sanctions on Russia, but with little direct economic impact," the bank said. "However, plenty of negative headlines and second round effects are likely to emerge."

By comparison, Russia suffered $63 billion in capital outflows in the whole of 2013.


The question then becomes exactly what actions will Putin take when money runs low? While I can see the Russian position of trying to remove the US dollar, they run into the issue of their own and Chinese currency issues. Russia is considered a risk by investors right now because they don't know what the outcome is going to be with regards to Crimea and they also don't know if the conflict will end there or if it will continue.

Then you have China, who has been having issues for years over their currency and the Chinese governments manipulation of their currency to create trade imbalances in their favor. When China joined the WTO their currency manipulation was addressed, with China agreeing to allow their currency to free float on the international market. They were given a 5 year window to adjust, and thus far they have failed to meet the obligations.

It is risky, and to a point detrimental, for Russia and China to make an attempt to use their own currencies as a global standard.


Well heres an interesting article i read similar Russians are taking there money out of the country. My guess is they dont want to be stuck with Rubles and risk losing there money safer to invest it off shore. However they had 63 billion in outflows since january thats more than all of last year.

article.wn.com...

And to make matters worse i read an article i cant find it at the moment but it was talking about how the Russian military is dependent on Ukraine for spare parts.They make the engines for there planes as well as Naval craft. And apparently supply about half their ait to air missiles systems in Ukraine factories. At the moment the Russians dont have an alternative its odd how countries today are willing to have things vital to national security handled by other countries.



posted on Apr, 11 2014 @ 11:03 AM
link   

pookle

DJW001

renden
You both fail.

Same site, same news, just get informed.


Russia Returns Favor, Sees Chinese Yuan As World Reserve Currency

Following China's unwillingness to vote against Russia at the UN and yesterday's news that China will sue Ukraine for $3bn loan repayment, it seems Russia is returning the favor. Speaking at the Chinese Economic Development Forum, ITAR-TASS reports, the Chief Economist of Russia's largest bank stated that "China's Yuan may become the third reserve currency in the in the future."



Managing Director and Chief Economist of investment company Sberbank Yevgeny Gavrilenkov said at the 15th governmental Chinese economic development forum in the Chinese capital on Sunday (via ITAR-TASS):

"China’s yuan (renminbi) may become a third reserve currency in the world in the future"



"This forecast can be made on figures of domestic economic growth. Probably the country will keep high GDP growth rate and the GDP volume will increase to around 14-16 trillion U.S. dollars for a brief period of time, the indicators comparable to the European Union and the United States.



Meanwhile, Chinese securities are more attractive for the countries that have a surplus in economy, particularly the Middle East states; and China will obviously follow the path of securing the country’s assets,"


They been working on this deal for years, first signing was back in 2010;

"China-Russia currency agreement further threatens U.S. dollar"

www.ibtimes.com...

Gas deal is based on the Russian-Chinese currency agreement and will completely bypass the dollar, so world market pricing in dollars is completely not relevant.

That's the entire point, that's why it's the Holy Grail deal for both Russia and China.

For Russia it's the end of dependency on the dollar, for China it is energy surplus with out dependency on US politics.


You got four stars for denying reality. I can only assume that years of Communist propaganda have rendered Russians incapable of understanding how markets work.


The same could be said of Capatilist propaganda, free market et al. Well, markets are manipulated and rigged.

Communism in Russia has not existed for decades.
edit on 11-4-2014 by pookle because: (no reason given)



Communism doesnt exist has anyone told Putin yet?



posted on Apr, 11 2014 @ 11:06 AM
link   
reply to post by dragonridr
 


Ukraine Halts Arms Exports To Russia


WARSAW — Ukraine’s state-owned defense giant Ukroboronprom has decided to halt all exports of armament and military equipment to Russia, said Yuriy Tereshenko, the group’s chief executive. Ukroboronprom will not carry out any supplies to the Russian armed forces “until the conflict de-escalates,” according to Tereshenko.

“Today, for obvious reasons, we are not supplying weapons and military equipment to Russia,” Tereshenko told local news weekly Zerkalo Nedeli. “Yes, we will incur economic losses, but is it reasonable to equip the enemy’s Army?”

Russia is one of the leading importers of Ukrainian arms, according to data from a report by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI). From 2009 to 2013, about 7 percent of Ukrainian armament and military equipment was purchased by Russia, which ranked as the third largest market for Ukraine’s arms exports.



posted on Apr, 11 2014 @ 11:22 AM
link   
RT reporter:


There'll b a special operation agnst #Donetsk & #Lugansk protestors tonight,front storm.My reliable sources. #Tsarev #Ukraine pres candidate



posted on Apr, 11 2014 @ 11:23 AM
link   

asen_y2k
RT reporter:


There'll b a special operation agnst #Donetsk & #Lugansk protestors tonight,front storm.My reliable sources. #Tsarev #Ukraine pres candidate


Tonight! Tonight Tonight! That's all we hear, every night, Tonight!



posted on Apr, 11 2014 @ 11:29 AM
link   

renden

DJW001

pookle

DJW001

renden
You both fail.

Same site, same news, just get informed.


Russia Returns Favor, Sees Chinese Yuan As World Reserve Currency

Following China's unwillingness to vote against Russia at the UN and yesterday's news that China will sue Ukraine for $3bn loan repayment, it seems Russia is returning the favor. Speaking at the Chinese Economic Development Forum, ITAR-TASS reports, the Chief Economist of Russia's largest bank stated that "China's Yuan may become the third reserve currency in the in the future."



Managing Director and Chief Economist of investment company Sberbank Yevgeny Gavrilenkov said at the 15th governmental Chinese economic development forum in the Chinese capital on Sunday (via ITAR-TASS):

"China’s yuan (renminbi) may become a third reserve currency in the world in the future"



"This forecast can be made on figures of domestic economic growth. Probably the country will keep high GDP growth rate and the GDP volume will increase to around 14-16 trillion U.S. dollars for a brief period of time, the indicators comparable to the European Union and the United States.



Meanwhile, Chinese securities are more attractive for the countries that have a surplus in economy, particularly the Middle East states; and China will obviously follow the path of securing the country’s assets,"


They been working on this deal for years, first signing was back in 2010;

"China-Russia currency agreement further threatens U.S. dollar"

www.ibtimes.com...

Gas deal is based on the Russian-Chinese currency agreement and will completely bypass the dollar, so world market pricing in dollars is completely not relevant.

That's the entire point, that's why it's the Holy Grail deal for both Russia and China.

For Russia it's the end of dependency on the dollar, for China it is energy surplus with out dependency on US politics.


You got four stars for denying reality. I can only assume that years of Communist propaganda have rendered Russians incapable of understanding how markets work.


The same could be said of Capatilist propaganda, free market et al. Well, markets are manipulated and rigged.

Communism in Russia has not existed for decades.
edit on 11-4-2014 by pookle because: (no reason given)


Is the irony intentional?


Which century are you living in?

No irony intended.


I'm not the one spouting Communist era propaganda!



posted on Apr, 11 2014 @ 11:34 AM
link   

pookle

asen_y2k
RT reporter:


There'll b a special operation agnst #Donetsk & #Lugansk protestors tonight,front storm.My reliable sources. #Tsarev #Ukraine pres candidate


Tonight! Tonight Tonight! That's all we hear, every night, Tonight!






Tonight,
We are young
So let's set the world on fire
We can burn brighter
Than the sun
Tonight,
We are young
So let's set the world on fire
We can burn brighter
Than the sun
Now I know that
I'm not
All that you got
I guess that I,
I just thought,
Maybe we could find new ways to fall apart



posted on Apr, 11 2014 @ 12:11 PM
link   
News update is here.
The puppet Yacenuyk says the law would undergo modification to give south - east regions legit right to do referendum.
Opinion out there is that puppets do that for the sole purpose to legitimise referendum to the west regions of Ukraine essentially prepping grounds to join west territories to EU and having himself an escapades.

cheers) Now you can erase my post.



posted on Apr, 11 2014 @ 12:17 PM
link   

darkorange
News update is here.
The puppet Yacenuyk says the law would undergo modification to give south - east regions legit right to do referendum.
Opinion out there is that puppets do that for the sole purpose to legitimise referendum to the west regions of Ukraine essentially prepping grounds to join west territories to EU and having himself an escapades.

cheers) Now you can erase my post.


They don't need his permission.

Watching this guy roll over is like shouting to an untrained dog.."Sit Sit!.. No. no no dont pee there... PEE THERE DOG PEE!, GOOD DOG".

edit on 11-4-2014 by pookle because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2014 @ 12:20 PM
link   
LOL))))
2nd line. Yes, 2nd line, tra-ta-ta))))



posted on Apr, 11 2014 @ 12:22 PM
link   

darkorange
News update is here.
The puppet Yacenuyk says the law would undergo modification to give south - east regions legit right to do referendum.


I'm confused did Yanukovych say this? If so, western Ukraine won't recognize it as they do not consider him the legit president anymore. Was it Turchynov who said it?


Opinion out there is that puppets do that for the sole purpose to legitimise referendum to the west regions of Ukraine essentially prepping grounds to join west territories to EU and having himself an escapades.


So no matter what happens, even if referendums are legitimized then the west is bad and wrong? So, if Ukraine acts against Pro-Russian aggression, ie taking over buildings/hostages etc it's bad, if it legitimizes referendums it's bad. Just what exactly is expected here?


Now you can erase my post.


Why would anyone do that?




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