Russia declares war on Ukraine. Live updates from inside Ukraine

ready to Smoke them......

DJW001

kookoos

DJW001
reply to post by renden

 

China already offered to buy all the gas, that's why it's called market economy, and it's up to Russians to decide whom to sell to, and at what prices.

Wrong. It is up to the buyer to decide what they are willing to pay. China will bid very low, since the West will not be buying at all. Russia's economy is collapsing, all thanks to Putin.

It is up to both to haggle it out actually.

True, but since there are other sources for natural gas, it is a buyer's market.

China's Days of "Stealing" the World's Oil and Gas Are Numbered - April 6th 2014

For years, China's oil companies PetroChina (NYSE: PTR ) , Sinopec (NYSE: SNP ) , and CNOOC (NYSE: CEO ) have had a major advantage over their integrated major peers, which flummoxed competing oil companies. This advantage has allowed them to gobble up oil and gas assets around the world at premiums well above market price. Unfortunately for these Chinese companies, it looks like this advantage is ending, and they will need to compete with the rest of the world's oil and gas producers for assets. Let's look at what this advantage was, why it may no longer be there, and what this could mean for the energy markets.

Shopping with no credit limit
All three of these publicly traded companies -- and just about every Chinese company dealing with natural resources, for that matter -- are beholden to two opposing masters. Not only are they accountable to their shareholders, but they also have ties to the national government that "encourage" them to act in the best interest of the state. This dual identity gives these companies some very distinct advantages in the global markets, but some disadvantages when it comes to investment.

These three Chinese energy companies have access to cheap capital through loans with extremely low interest rates. For perspective, ExxonMobil (NYSE: XOM ) is one of only four companies in the world to hold a AAA credit rating from Standard & Poor's. That credit rating is even better than both the United States and Chinese governments. All three Chinese companies enjoy considerably lower interest rates on their senior notes.

•2011: Sinopec buys Canadian producer Daylight Energy for $2.1 billion, a 44% premium to market cost.
•2012: CNOOC buys Canadian producer Nexen for $15.1 billion, a 61% premium.
•2013: Sinopec buys 40% working interest in Permian basin with Pioneer Natural Resources for $1.7 billion, a 40% premium.

China is currently having oil issues on their own.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Thats why :
It's On: Gazprom Prepares "Symbolic" Bond Issue In Chinese Yuan

Curious what the fate of the petrodollar is? Look no farther than this Interfax update blasted moments ago by Bloomberg: "Gazprom Considers 'Symbolic' Yuan Bond Issue, Interfax Says."

Bloomberg adds that the gas giant is considering proposals from potential organizers to market bonds in yuan, Interfax reports, citing people with knowledge of the matter.

Gazprom unlikely be able to gain more than $300m due to mkt volume, newswire reports
No mandates, deal timeline yet
Issue may add new investors, become a “topical” public relations act amid tensions with U.S., EU
Well, yes. It's called "symbolic" for a reason. More importantly, it is a symbol of what happens when one can "create" money de novo without the presence of the world's increasingly defunct reserve currency, either secured by gas or by future cash flows, i.e., unsecured.

reply to post by MessageforAll


Nothing quite like re-arranging decks chairs on the titanic.

Yeah I'm gonna quit responding to utterly childish nonsense, and will just post facts. I caught my self getting disturbed from actually not being able to determine if I'm responding to a really confused person, somebody on a really crappy job, or to a flat out chat bot pushing propaganda. What ever it is, communicating with it is simply not healthy.

Here are the facts, Putin has ordered the return of Ukrainian military hardware stationed in Crimea, from the units that CHOSE to return to Ukraine. Hardware includes military vehicles, armored vehicles, T-64 tanks, submarine, and MiG-29 fighter jets. That's a fact.

Those units were offered the choice, they made it, they were let go, and they got to keep all their military hardware which was loaded and sent right after them.

Transportation of armored vehicles and tanks by rail has been going under Russian efforts, and the only problem is lack of Ukrainian train carts which they don't want to send. Only one of the MiG-29s proved to be actually flight worthy.

It has been reported that the Ukrainians who were ordered to escort the hardware into Ukraine have been busy looting it.

While there are unsupported allegations that Russians have been destroying the equipment, videos of them loading tanks and trucks onto rail platforms have been shown from day one of the transportation effort.

Considering the complete media iron-curtain in the West, this news naturally didn't even make it to the e-press, much less any tv news, because it simply does not fit the format of Russian warmongering, saber rattling baddies who are out for blood.

www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...

Use google translate;

obozrevatel.com...

112.ua...

24daily.net...

cosmonova
Well it is happening in Odessa now as well.
Massive protests against current government and fascism, celebration of the 70th anniversary of the liberation of Odessa from Nazis.
And not a single Ukrainian flag.

www.youtube.com...

edit on 10-4-2014 by cosmonova because: (no reason given)

There's a good couple of thousand people there

Live from Donetsk, where the deadline ended

Link

reply to post by renden


Do you have a Ukrainian source that can confirm any of this, or are you simply going to believe everything the Russian government controlled press tells you?

reply to post by renden


Its been reported in the west the problem is the only thing they made arrangements to return so far is a missile cruiser there towing to sea. And to be honest im not sure id want the tanks back they could easily paint them so they light up on flir like a christmas tree. The other part is Russia is deciding what to return since they can determine what units and equipment belong to Crimea sweet deal. So far Ukraine's Defence Ministry has estimated the value of Ukrainian military equipment left in Crimea at 18 billion hryvnias ($1.7 billion). And as of yet havnt received a thing so come back and talk to us when Ukraine actually gets the stuff back. The irony is by Russia returning there equipment its setting up a law suit. See they confiscated other assets as well and havnt even discussed return.

reply to post by dragonridr


By doing that Russia has also weakened their own position on their actions in Crimea.

If Crimea was "Independent" as claimed, there would be no need to return those items back to the Ukraine government. Since they are they have acknowledged Ukraine controlled Crimea and that the Crimean government had no authority over the bases / military items on the peninsula nor did they have the authority to invite Russia in.

DJW001
reply to post by renden

 

China already offered to buy all the gas, that's why it's called market economy, and it's up to Russians to decide whom to sell to, and at what prices.

Wrong. It is up to the buyer to decide what they are willing to pay. China will bid very low, since the West will not be buying at all. Russia's economy is collapsing, all thanks to Putin.

Really? So were do you get your information from, the "opinion shopping mall"?

www.zerohedge.com...

Russia And China About To Sign "Holy Grail" Gas Deal

Several weeks ago we reported that in response to ongoing alienation of Russia by the west Putin was aggressively setting the stage for Russia's eastward expansion, set to culminate with a "holy grail" gas deal with China. We said that "while Europe is furiously scrambling to find alternative sources of energy should Gazprom pull the plug on natgas exports to Germany and Europe (the imminent surge in Ukraine gas prices by 40% is probably the best indication of what the outcome would be), Russia is preparing the announcement of the "Holy Grail" energy deal with none other than China, a move which would send geopolitical shockwaves around the world and bind the two nations in a commodity-backed axis."

Reuters added, reflecting on the recent trip of Rosneft executive chairman to Asia, that "the underlying message from the head of Russia's biggest oil company, Rosneft, was clear: If Europe and the United States isolate Russia, Moscow will look East for new business, energy deals, military contracts and political alliances. The Holy Grail for Moscow is a natural gas supply deal with China that is apparently now close after years of negotiations. If it can be signed when Putin visits China in May, he will be able to hold it up to show that global power has shifted eastwards and he does not need the West."

It's time for an update. According to Itar-Tass, "Russia's Gazprom and China are poised to conclude a gas supply contract in coming weeks, the first in a series of energy projects planned between the two countries. "We’re working now to sign a gas contract in May," said Deputy Prime Minister Arkady Dvorkovich. "Consultations are continuing and Gazprom's leaders are holding talks with Chinese partners on the contract terms. We hope to conclude the contract in May and believe it should come into effect by the year end."

renden

DJW001
reply to post by renden

 

China already offered to buy all the gas, that's why it's called market economy, and it's up to Russians to decide whom to sell to, and at what prices.

Wrong. It is up to the buyer to decide what they are willing to pay. China will bid very low, since the West will not be buying at all. Russia's economy is collapsing, all thanks to Putin.

Really? So were do you get your information from, the "opinion shopping mall"?

www.zerohedge.com...

Russia And China About To Sign "Holy Grail" Gas Deal

Several weeks ago we reported that in response to ongoing alienation of Russia by the west Putin was aggressively setting the stage for Russia's eastward expansion, set to culminate with a "holy grail" gas deal with China. We said that "while Europe is furiously scrambling to find alternative sources of energy should Gazprom pull the plug on natgas exports to Germany and Europe (the imminent surge in Ukraine gas prices by 40% is probably the best indication of what the outcome would be), Russia is preparing the announcement of the "Holy Grail" energy deal with none other than China, a move which would send geopolitical shockwaves around the world and bind the two nations in a commodity-backed axis."

Reuters added, reflecting on the recent trip of Rosneft executive chairman to Asia, that "the underlying message from the head of Russia's biggest oil company, Rosneft, was clear: If Europe and the United States isolate Russia, Moscow will look East for new business, energy deals, military contracts and political alliances. The Holy Grail for Moscow is a natural gas supply deal with China that is apparently now close after years of negotiations. If it can be signed when Putin visits China in May, he will be able to hold it up to show that global power has shifted eastwards and he does not need the West."

It's time for an update. According to Itar-Tass, "Russia's Gazprom and China are poised to conclude a gas supply contract in coming weeks, the first in a series of energy projects planned between the two countries. "We’re working now to sign a gas contract in May," said Deputy Prime Minister Arkady Dvorkovich. "Consultations are continuing and Gazprom's leaders are holding talks with Chinese partners on the contract terms. We hope to conclude the contract in May and believe it should come into effect by the year end."

Where does it say that China is willing to pay more for gas than Europe? They are in a position to bid much, much less and Russia will have no choice but to accept China's terms... or lose yet another customer.

DJW001
reply to post by renden

 

Do you have a Ukrainian source that can confirm any of this, or are you simply going to believe everything the Russian government controlled press tells you?

Have at it;

www.segodnya.ua...

www.profinews.com.ua...

The magic of internet...

renden

DJW001
reply to post by renden

 

Do you have a Ukrainian source that can confirm any of this, or are you simply going to believe everything the Russian government controlled press tells you?

Have at it;

www.segodnya.ua...

www.profinews.com.ua...

The magic of internet...

Neither source says that any equipment has actually been returned, and neither mentions "looting." On the other hand, one claims that the equipment to be returned is outdated or in poor repair; in other words, Putin has agreed to return scrap metal that he cannot use at Ukraine's expense. Not exactly what Russian sources are claiming, is it?

DJW001

renden

DJW001
reply to post by renden

 

China already offered to buy all the gas, that's why it's called market economy, and it's up to Russians to decide whom to sell to, and at what prices.

Wrong. It is up to the buyer to decide what they are willing to pay. China will bid very low, since the West will not be buying at all. Russia's economy is collapsing, all thanks to Putin.

Really? So were do you get your information from, the "opinion shopping mall"?

www.zerohedge.com...

Russia And China About To Sign "Holy Grail" Gas Deal

Several weeks ago we reported that in response to ongoing alienation of Russia by the west Putin was aggressively setting the stage for Russia's eastward expansion, set to culminate with a "holy grail" gas deal with China. We said that "while Europe is furiously scrambling to find alternative sources of energy should Gazprom pull the plug on natgas exports to Germany and Europe (the imminent surge in Ukraine gas prices by 40% is probably the best indication of what the outcome would be), Russia is preparing the announcement of the "Holy Grail" energy deal with none other than China, a move which would send geopolitical shockwaves around the world and bind the two nations in a commodity-backed axis."

Reuters added, reflecting on the recent trip of Rosneft executive chairman to Asia, that "the underlying message from the head of Russia's biggest oil company, Rosneft, was clear: If Europe and the United States isolate Russia, Moscow will look East for new business, energy deals, military contracts and political alliances. The Holy Grail for Moscow is a natural gas supply deal with China that is apparently now close after years of negotiations. If it can be signed when Putin visits China in May, he will be able to hold it up to show that global power has shifted eastwards and he does not need the West."

It's time for an update. According to Itar-Tass, "Russia's Gazprom and China are poised to conclude a gas supply contract in coming weeks, the first in a series of energy projects planned between the two countries. "We’re working now to sign a gas contract in May," said Deputy Prime Minister Arkady Dvorkovich. "Consultations are continuing and Gazprom's leaders are holding talks with Chinese partners on the contract terms. We hope to conclude the contract in May and believe it should come into effect by the year end."

Where does it say that China is willing to pay more for gas than Europe? They are in a position to bid much, much less and Russia will have no choice but to accept China's terms... or lose yet another customer.

Wow, I got no comment to that, because you apparently have a secret source inside their negotiation table, source that provides you with actual negotiated contract figures.

Pleas do tell, how much are Chinese willing, and not willing to pay?

That's while completely ignoring the very title; "Russia And China About To Sign "Holy Grail" Gas Deal".

According to your logic that Holy Grail of the deal is a lot worse then the current European deal, which must be something so much more massively better then the Holy Grail, that us mere mortals can't even conceive of its greatness.

Xcathdra
reply to post by dragonridr

 

By doing that Russia has also weakened their own position on their actions in Crimea.

If Crimea was "Independent" as claimed, there would be no need to return those items back to the Ukraine government. Since they are they have acknowledged Ukraine controlled Crimea and that the Crimean government had no authority over the bases / military items on the peninsula nor did they have the authority to invite Russia in.

None of Russia's claims or actions has been consistent.

renden

DJW001
reply to post by renden

 

China already offered to buy all the gas, that's why it's called market economy, and it's up to Russians to decide whom to sell to, and at what prices.

Wrong. It is up to the buyer to decide what they are willing to pay. China will bid very low, since the West will not be buying at all. Russia's economy is collapsing, all thanks to Putin.

Really? So were do you get your information from, the "opinion shopping mall"?

www.zerohedge.com...

Russia And China About To Sign "Holy Grail" Gas Deal

Several weeks ago we reported that in response to ongoing alienation of Russia by the west Putin was aggressively setting the stage for Russia's eastward expansion, set to culminate with a "holy grail" gas deal with China. We said that "while Europe is furiously scrambling to find alternative sources of energy should Gazprom pull the plug on natgas exports to Germany and Europe (the imminent surge in Ukraine gas prices by 40% is probably the best indication of what the outcome would be), Russia is preparing the announcement of the "Holy Grail" energy deal with none other than China, a move which would send geopolitical shockwaves around the world and bind the two nations in a commodity-backed axis."

Reuters added, reflecting on the recent trip of Rosneft executive chairman to Asia, that "the underlying message from the head of Russia's biggest oil company, Rosneft, was clear: If Europe and the United States isolate Russia, Moscow will look East for new business, energy deals, military contracts and political alliances. The Holy Grail for Moscow is a natural gas supply deal with China that is apparently now close after years of negotiations. If it can be signed when Putin visits China in May, he will be able to hold it up to show that global power has shifted eastwards and he does not need the West."

It's time for an update. According to Itar-Tass, "Russia's Gazprom and China are poised to conclude a gas supply contract in coming weeks, the first in a series of energy projects planned between the two countries. "We’re working now to sign a gas contract in May," said Deputy Prime Minister Arkady Dvorkovich. "Consultations are continuing and Gazprom's leaders are holding talks with Chinese partners on the contract terms. We hope to conclude the contract in May and believe it should come into effect by the year end."

I suggest you read your own article even in it it said China will be setting the price but Russia can make up for it by volume. Meaning China will pay less than market value precisely the point that was made. So you tried to prove someone wrong and proved yourself wrong now thats funny. See China has Russia just where she needs them over a barrel pun intended. China will pay less than market value guaranteed when Russia needs China to survive.Oh and here is the part i suggest you read.

The key sticking point remains the price: "Base price is the only problem to be solved,” Dvorkovich said on Wednesday at a session of a Russia-China intergovernmental commission on energy co-operation, co-chaired by Chinese Vice-Premier Zhang Gaoli." However, even if Russia concedes the topline to China, it will surely "more than make up for it in volume" to borrow a line from Amazon, and furthermore the geopolitical implications from such a deal, not to mention the increase in national leverage vis-a-vis its dealings with Europe and the West, will more than make up for any immediately revenue shortfalls.

renden

DJW001

renden

DJW001
reply to post by renden

 

China already offered to buy all the gas, that's why it's called market economy, and it's up to Russians to decide whom to sell to, and at what prices.

Wrong. It is up to the buyer to decide what they are willing to pay. China will bid very low, since the West will not be buying at all. Russia's economy is collapsing, all thanks to Putin.

Really? So were do you get your information from, the "opinion shopping mall"?

www.zerohedge.com...

Russia And China About To Sign "Holy Grail" Gas Deal

Several weeks ago we reported that in response to ongoing alienation of Russia by the west Putin was aggressively setting the stage for Russia's eastward expansion, set to culminate with a "holy grail" gas deal with China. We said that "while Europe is furiously scrambling to find alternative sources of energy should Gazprom pull the plug on natgas exports to Germany and Europe (the imminent surge in Ukraine gas prices by 40% is probably the best indication of what the outcome would be), Russia is preparing the announcement of the "Holy Grail" energy deal with none other than China, a move which would send geopolitical shockwaves around the world and bind the two nations in a commodity-backed axis."

Reuters added, reflecting on the recent trip of Rosneft executive chairman to Asia, that "the underlying message from the head of Russia's biggest oil company, Rosneft, was clear: If Europe and the United States isolate Russia, Moscow will look East for new business, energy deals, military contracts and political alliances. The Holy Grail for Moscow is a natural gas supply deal with China that is apparently now close after years of negotiations. If it can be signed when Putin visits China in May, he will be able to hold it up to show that global power has shifted eastwards and he does not need the West."

It's time for an update. According to Itar-Tass, "Russia's Gazprom and China are poised to conclude a gas supply contract in coming weeks, the first in a series of energy projects planned between the two countries. "We’re working now to sign a gas contract in May," said Deputy Prime Minister Arkady Dvorkovich. "Consultations are continuing and Gazprom's leaders are holding talks with Chinese partners on the contract terms. We hope to conclude the contract in May and believe it should come into effect by the year end."

Where does it say that China is willing to pay more for gas than Europe? They are in a position to bid much, much less and Russia will have no choice but to accept China's terms... or lose yet another customer.

Wow, I got no comment to that, because you apparently have a secret source inside their negotiation table, source that provides you with actual negotiated contract figures.

Pleas do tell, how much are Chinese willing, and not willing to pay?

That's while completely ignoring the very title is "Russia And China About To Sign "Holy Grail" Gas Deal".

According to your logic that Holy Grail of the deal is a lot worse then the current European deal, which must be something so much more massively better then the Holy Grail, that us mere mortals can't even conceive of its greatness.

It is China's Holy Grail, not Russia's. Have you ever negotiated anything in your life? China has the advantage here.

Xcathdra
reply to post by MessageforAll

 

Nothing quite like re-arranging decks chairs on the titanic.

you're referring to the global system aren't you?