Ancient Confession Found: 'We Invented Jesus Christ'

reply to post by BO XIAN


Isaiah 41:8 gives an introduction to the servant being spoken about.

It says "Israel is my servant" then it goes on and on about it, It says the servant is Israel but you wish to say its about Jesus anyway...

reply to post by BO XIAN


The old testament is from the Torah that predates the bible and has been less perverted by anyone that wanted to add their little two cents to it, if you had bothered to read my post thoroughly, you would see the concept of New Jerusalem was a branch off of Judaism that gave rise to the hope of an anointed one that would deliver them out of the hands of the Romans, to a new promised land away from persecution. You say this is the Jesus of the new testament, that the old testament speaks of, try reading more than one book, or more than one version they differ quite a bit depending on who had their fingers in the figgy pudding at the time.

The Jesus of the bible was only accepted by one sect of Judaism, whether this character was created or not, is what is being debated. Ask any Jew and they will say the Christ or Jesus has yet to arrive. If you go based on just the criteria of what the anointed messiah was supposed to do in that prophesy... the biblical Jesus of the New Testament never created a New Jerusalem, so how can the Jesus of the new testament be the messiah? He delivered no one out of persecution not even himself as the story goes, he was slapped up on a cross just like 1000's of others were. If any thing Christianity is simply martyr worship of someone that may or may not have existed.

reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness


Nope.

Don't buy it.

You have no idea about the depth and breadth of my acquisitive reading habits over 62+ years.

You might try reading researchers and scholars who write from a different perspective than that of your pet biases.

reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness


It's not really a concept that takes a lot of mental horsepower to understand.

The Scriptures have clearly outlined a Messiah that came as a suffering servant.

And

a Messiah that comes as a conquering King with the New Jerusalem etc.

Many Jewish scholars have taught for centuries that it had to be two different people.

Others just said it was a mystery.

Jesus solves the problem completely.

reply to post by arpgme


Equating

"Israel is my servant"

with

The Messiah as THE SUFFERING SERVANT MESSIAH

is utter nonsense.

There's no linguistic nor contextual justification for such a leap of nonsense.

Of course Israel is The Lord's Servant. Nothing new there. NO big revelation there. Abraham was God's servant. Abraham's descendants were challenged to faithfully commit to being God's servant and to teach their children to do the same.

Nothing new there. No big revelatory new thing there.

Isaiah clearly talks about THE MESSIAH in the prophetic verses about the SUFFERING SERVANT MESSIAH.

Only those with a fiercely biased agenda . . . and/or willful blindness . . . miss it.

reply to post by arpgme


Equating

"Israel is my servant"

with

The Messiah as THE SUFFERING SERVANT MESSIAH

is utter nonsense.

There's no linguistic nor contextual justification for such a leap of nonsense.

Of course Israel is The Lord's Servant. Nothing new there. NO big revelation there. Abraham was God's servant. Abraham's descendants were challenged to faithfully commit to being God's servant and to teach their children to do the same.

Nothing new there. No big revelatory new thing there.

Isaiah clearly talks about THE MESSIAH in the prophetic verses about the SUFFERING SERVANT MESSIAH.

Only those with a fiercely biased agenda . . . and/or willful blindness . . . miss it.

BO XIAN
reply to post by arpgme

 

Equating

"Israel is my servant"

with

The Messiah as THE SUFFERING SERVANT MESSIAH

is utter nonsense.

There's no linguistic nor contextual justification for such a leap of nonsense.

Of course Israel is The Lord's Servant. Nothing new there. NO big revelation there. Abraham was God's servant. Abraham's descendants were challenged to faithfully commit to being God's servant and to teach their children to do the same.

Nothing new there. No big revelatory new thing there.

Isaiah clearly talks about THE MESSIAH in the prophetic verses about the SUFFERING SERVANT MESSIAH.

Only those with a fiercely biased agenda . . . and/or willful blindness . . . miss it.

Isaiah 53 clearly says the Messiah suffers for the sins of the people who would be Israel and thus they cannot pay for their own sins by being without spot or blemish. The shank bone used in the passover meal is the Zoar Adonai which translates to the arm of the Lord and was the spotless lamb sacrificed for the people.

The Rabbi's have known for generations of two Messiah figures. One called Messiah ben Joseph who suffers as Joseph was sold into slavery and redeemed his family, and Messiah ben David who is the conquering king. They just failed to realize that in Isaiah it also says the suffering servant would not decay, and thus points to resurrection and coming again as the conquering King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Though Hanukah is not a Feast of the Lord it is interesting to note that when they lit the first candle called the Shamash meaning servant that Yeshua stood and and said he is the Light of the world, thus meaning he is the servant that gives light to all others.

The messianic prophesies are astounding and Yeshua fulfilled all the ones listed for his life, and he will fulfill the rest when he returns to collect his bride which he made the contract with and paid the price to claim her.

One more interesting fact is that it takes 10 men to make a minion to represent the house of Israel in any meeting, and thus when Yeshua was hanging on the cross and 10 Jewish lepers were going through the rites of cleansing to prove they were healed, it was an announcement to the priesthood that they had just sacrificed the spotless lamb, the Messiah ben Joseph as only the Messiah could heal a Jewish leper.

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity


ABSOLUTELY INDEED.

Great points. Of course, they won't influence those with closed eyes, closed ears and closed minds.

However, those who seek THE TRUTH may be greatly helped by your points.

THX THX.

At my age, I don't carry all those details in my head. LOL.

BTW, thx for msg. I pulled it up.

Blessings,

reply to post by BO XIAN


All you did with that post is hold a mirror up to yourself, I am not trying to shake your faith. This thread isn't about debating the message, that remains the same and just as powerful to people whether the man called Jesus Christ existed or not, so going on the defensive feeling you need to prove what cannot be proven is a waste of time and effort, Santa Claus doesn't exist in reality but fiction yet Christmas happens just the same... I presented history that can be cited and proven correct. Yet it seems you feel I say there was no such man in my posts, I am saying there is not enough evidence to say conclusively either way, the Bible is not an accurate document as far as historical research, some of it can be verified, and some of it is entirely inaccurate, when calling out places and people especially timelines. There is a lot of metaphorical that many take to be literal, when the bible is both you can't have it all one way, unless you personally choose to cross that line.

Time would be better spent providing some supporting evidence to your position that he did exist, rather than call nonsense and shenanigans, at evidence that does not support your position... all you have done is shown your faith and strength of belief thus far. If you cannot see that you have the strong bias, from that position then there is no rational or logical debate to be had, where evidence is concerned.

I have wondered this my self at times, not that I really care if Jesus did exist or not.

What makes me semi believe this thread, is how Jesus actually shares many common traits with many pagan gods, world wide, and some that have hardly any connection at all.

www.hiddenbible.com...

Supposedly he shares traits with Horus(or Osiris, I can't remember) from Egypt, and last time I checked, Hebrews and Egyptians didn't get along so well. Krishna, and supposedly many more I can't think or name of right now.

What also bugs me, is how he is heavily related to Sun symbolism.

reply to post by BO XIAN


Interesting how you get so personal about this. You can say whatever you want, but the fact remains that the servant was called Israel in that context, not messiah, but you will believe whatever justifies your beliefs despite contradictions or whatever

arpgme
reply to post by BO XIAN

 

. . . that the servant was called Israel in that context, . . .

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Sheesh.

THE Servant

was NOT called Israel.

Israel was merely called a servant of God . . . as she had been when Abraham and family was all there was to Israel.

This is not linguistic rocket science.

The language does NOT support your assertion at all.

The context does NOT support your assertion at all.

BO XIAN

arpgme
reply to post by BO XIAN

 

. . . that the servant was called Israel in that context, . . .

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Sheesh.

THE Servant

was NOT called Israel.

Israel was merely called a servant of God . . . as she had been when Abraham and family was all there was to Israel.

This is not linguistic rocket science.

The language does NOT support your assertion at all.

The context does NOT support your assertion at all.

edit on 23/10/2013 by BO XIAN because: tags

edit on 23/10/2013 by BO XIAN because: tags

Fine we'll, go by your logic... Isaiah 41:8 is found in the old testament, Jesus is not in the old testament, so how in the world does the servant in the old testament mean Jesus? Yeah it doesn't mean the Jesus of the new testament does it? Oh that's because it's prophesy you may retort. Which is exactly why the New Jerusalem I keep going on about is important here. Judaism split the ones that split looking for an annotated savior(a Jesus Christ) either found or made one up... that's what this whole thread is about. How can you remove the beam from another's eye when you refuse to remove your own? I have already stated many times, and this is the last 3 times is my limit... there is nothing wrong with what you believe I am not attacking it, it brings you strength to walk through life yes? Good. But I am sure it does not insist that you be a blind ass either.

How about walking your path as your Christ did and asks you to? Sure blame the anger and other sins you feel and act out on Satan, then pray for forgiveness then get up and do it all over again tomorrow. Jesus would and did tell you to change, his death if he existed was not a get out of sin free card every day. How many times does he have to keep dieing on the cross for your sins? Walk in his footsteps, every time you step off it you are nailing your lords feet back to the cross, he wanted people to CHANGE not keep repeating the same sin over and over and over and then saying its ok he died for me all I have to do is repent or pray... that nasty old satan got me again jesus! No my friend you keep getting you, and spitting in your lords face as he drags the cross up on the hill for you every time you do not change. Using jesus as an excuse to justify your evil and not change as he asked shame on you.

My apologies for the severe rebuke it is not in my nature, but when a stubborn ass refuses to pull the plow and tend the field your lord has laid out you strike the demon from that animal. Begone foul beast from this man so he may walk in the way of the lord!

My path may have been Buddhist but that does not mean I do not know yours inside and out, our lords may be different but they preach the same message, walk it brother walk it.

BigBrotherDarkness

How about walking your path as your Christ did and asks you to? Sure blame the anger and other sins you feel and act out on Satan, then pray for forgiveness then get up and do it all over again tomorrow. Jesus would and did tell you to change, his death if he existed was not a get out of sin free card every day. How many times does he have to keep dieing on the cross for your sins? Walk in his footsteps, every time you step off it you are nailing your lords feet back to the cross, he wanted people to CHANGE not keep repeating the same sin over and over and over and then saying its ok he died for me all I have to do is repent or pray... that nasty old satan got me again jesus! No my friend you keep getting you, and spitting in your lords face as he drags the cross up on the hill for you every time you do not change. Using jesus as an excuse to justify your evil and not change as he asked shame on you.

Worthy exhortations.

Though striving in our own strength to perfect ourselves never has and never will work.

THE RHEMA CODE by Scott Shang is proving to be a growing enlightenment to me on such scores. Not yet wrapped my full mind etc. around the truths he's highlighting but it's a good paradigm shift on the above issues you articulated so well.

BTW, If Jesus had not made clear to zealot Saul how abundantly present OT prophecies were about Jesus, Saul would have never become Paul, scribing so much of the NT as a faithful servant and follower of The Christ.

Rationalizations to the contrary just don't wash with Paul's psychology--by a long shot.

reply to post by BO XIAN


The phrase don't shoot the messenger is important to all religions, the message is never the problem... the followers are. Hypocrisy is nothing new, most people use religion as a justification to do what they do, out of greed, hate and ignorance to hurt their fellow man and woman, the suicide bomber and the abortion clinic bomber are one in the same. They think they sit on the white throne of judgement instead of their god, I am sure you see this because you said in other words; no man is an island.

Sadly religion has been twisted and perverted, the holy war we are to fight is supposed to be on the inside to uproot the poison by using the lamp of the word to lighten up the darkness inside... not storm door to door shining that light in our neighbors face that does not have the blood of the lamb on his door post for all to see. Religion gives no excuse to judge another. If it offends one is asked to pluck it out, it specifically points out you pluck your own eye out not the eye of the one offending. Of course it is not to be taken literal but I am sure many have actually lost a physical eye instead of a spiritual eye over it. It doesn't say accept it, rebuke it, chase it down with torches and pitch forks, or strap a bomb to ones chest... it says see it within and if it offends uproot it from thine self, or basically change how you look at it.

To really live by the word one has to understand it, unfortunately most of the people teaching it say the problem all come from out there somewhere not within, that we are pure and saved in the lord, baptized clean through his self sacrifice. If that were true then why does sin not go anywhere why most you still rebuke satan? It's because the evil originates within one's own mind, it is not out in the world waiting to over take and climb inside you, the darkness is already inside with what people call original sin, so one must use the light of the lord within and become a lamp only then does one become the living word, notice that? Living word not speaking word, judging word, but living the word walking the path of illumination of the lamp. Without the light turned inside one cannot read the words to walk the path clearly. This is the hell, this is the wandering around in darkness.

So using the light of the word to walk the path clearly instead of using it to take gods place on the throne of judgement of others is the intention and meaning that is glossed over. Ignoring that one runs around with the lamp outside doing evil to one another feeling wholly justified because they carry the word in the hand, the problem is they need to carry it in their heart. The way people carry the word thinking evil is without instead of within, they'd be throwing rocks at Mary Magdalene instead of shielding her as Christ did. The worst part is using his sacrifice as an excuse to keep throwing the rocks and not placing the light within.

Sure this is in accordance with the Christian word, and seems very Dogmatic but the same above is true in all religions, I could write the same thing swapping out the jargon and it fits them all just the same. Accepting the light within and using it as a guide is universal, the names and the who's can all change but the message remains the same. This is why I say it does not matter if Christ existed or not, the same could be for Buddha, or any other prophet they all have stood and pointed to the exact same thing.

reply to post by budski


No no no. He's very much real. Jesus plays catcher for the Seattle Mariners....

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reply to post by budski


First thought which came to mind after reading the thread title was..

"Just like 'they' found the passport of that terrorist who flew into the worldtrade centre"?

If the bible is the proof that Jesus existed, so a spiderman comic book is the proof that spiderman exists