Seek ye first, the Kingdom of Heaven

The title of this thread comes from the verse, Matthew 6:33. You may have read other translated versions, which uses the word “God” instead, making it read “The Kingdom of God”. The use of the word “God” has generally been left out of earlier manuscripts, and is therefore considered to be a later addition. Either way, “ the Kingdom of God” and “ the Kingdom of Heaven” are most likely one and the same thing.

So just what is this “Kingdom of Heaven”…?

I looked up the key verse below using a concordance…

Jonh3:3
Jesus 2424 answered 611 and 2532 said 2036 unto him 846, Verily 281, verily 281, I say 3004 unto thee 4671, Except 3362 a man 5100 be born 1080 again 509, he cannot 1410 3756 see1492 the kingdom 932 of God 2316.

The standard Christian belief, is that one cannot see the “Kingdom of Heaven”, until after death, when one goes to Heaven etc…

G1492
eidō

The above word is translated as “see”, but as well as being used literally (to see literally) the same exact word, is also used figuratively, to imply being aware, beholding, consider, know, perceive and understand etc….

In many other places, this exact same word (G1492) is often translated as 'know'.

Here are just a few examples, where the exact same word (G1492) is used to express the word “know”…

Luke 23:23
Then 1161 said 3004 Jesus 2424, Father 3962, forgive 863 them 846; for 1063 they know1492 not 3756 what 5101 they do 4160 . And 1161 they parted 1266 his 846 raiment 2440, and cast 906 lots 2819.

John 1:31
And I 2504 knew1492 him 846 not 3756: but 235 that 2443 he should be made manifest 5319 to Israel 2474, therefore 1223 5124 am 2064 0 I 1473 come 2064 baptizing 907 with 1722 water 5204.

John 11:49
And 1161 one 1520 5100 of 1537 them 846, [named] Caiaphas 2533, being 5607 the high priest 749 that same 1565 year 1763, said 2036 unto them 846, Ye 5210 know1492 nothing at all 3756 3762

There are many other similar verses, which you can check out yourself in the links below…

It would appear that the word (G1492) could be meant in either context, i.e. to literally see something, or to come to know and perceive/understand something.

Next, I looked up the word “see”, again using the concordance…

I found that there are 3 other words, which are also used to express the word “see”….

(1) H7200
ra'ah (which is used exclusively throughout the OT)
רָאָה


(2) G3700
optanomai
ὀπτάνομαι


(3)
G3708
horaō
ὁράω


The first word ra'ah (H7200) occurs 1314 times, so please understand, there’s no way I could look up every instance of that word…but from what I can gather so far, it appears as though it’s only used primarily to “see” in the literal sense of the word.

The same is true of the 2nd word optanomai (G3700), which is only used to describe seeing something, in the literal sense of the word.

The last word horaō (G3708) which is only used 68 times; Again, appears to be used mostly in the literal “seeing” sense; although occasionally, it is used to describe perceiving something, usually a vision in the minds eye.

It seems to me, that if Jesus in John 3:3 meant you can only “see” the kingdom, in the literal sense of the word, then it would have been more appropriate to use either (H7200), (G3700), (G3708)

So is Jesus saying that no man can come to “know”, the Kingdom of Heaven, unless he becomes born again etc, or is Jesus saying that you will not “see” it, in the literal sense, unless you become born again…?

What say ye, Christians…?

reply to post by Joecroft

I think you are right in drawing attention to the "knowing" aspect of "seeing".
Other modern translations of John ch3 v3 say "cannot ENTER" the kingdom"; that is surely what Jesus was getting at, and as far as I know that's the normal Christian understanding of the message of that verse.

reply to post by Joecroft


both

Originally posted by WashMoreFeet
reply to post by Joecroft

 

both

Care to expand, on why you think it’s both…?


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft


Exactly

Or should I say Amen.

I'd argue that the world around us is the Kingdom of God. The universe is the most complex thing in existence, in fact it IS existence. There is no possible way we could ever fathom just how huge it is, yet neither can we fathom just how tiny it is either.

There are billions and billions of atoms in just your fingernail alone, now multiply your tiny fingernail by the size of the universe and try to calculate how many atoms are contained within it. No one will ever know, so it may as well be infinite atoms that make up the universe.

Everything is perfect within the universe, the tiniest pebble reacts to the laws of physics just as the biggest rock would. Everything is in order, from the biggest scale to the smallest scale. I still can't understand how no one sees just how perfect existence is. It is so perfect and exact, it MUST be heaven.

reply to post by Joecroft

Since we're looking at Kingdom & Heaven & Enter maybe we can look at Matthew 7:21.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

kingdom of the heavens will enter
βασιλείαν τῶν οὐρανῶν εἰσελεύσεται
932 [e] 3772 [e] 1525 [e]

I don't know if those numbers are the same systym. WLC Strongs from interlinearbible.org

Uranus (mythology)
Uranus (/ˈjʊərənəs/ or /jʊˈreɪnəs/; Ancient Greek Οὐρανός, Ouranos meaning "sky" or "heaven") was the primal Greek god personifying the sky. His equivalent in Roman mythology was Caelus. In Ancient Greek literature, Uranus or Father Sky was the son and husband of Gaia, Mother Earth.

Baalshamin
Baalshamin or Ba'al Šamem[2] (Aramaic: ܒܥܠ ܫܡܝܢ, lit. 'Lord of Heaven(s)') is a Northwest Semitic god and a title applied to different gods at different places or times in ancient Middle Eastern inscriptions, especially in Canaan/Phoenicia and Syria. The title was most often applied to Hadad, who is also often titled just Ba‘al. Baalshamin was one of the two supreme gods and the sky god of pre-Islamic Palmyra in ancient Syria.
. . .
In Sanchuniathon's main mythology the god he calls in Greek 'Uranus'/'Sky' has been thought by some to stand for Ba'al Šamem. Sky is here the actual father of Baal Hadad (though Baal Hadad is born after his mother's marriage to Dagon). As in Greek mythology and Hittite mythology, Sky is castrated by his son, who is in turn destined to be opposed by the thunder god.

Abomination of desolationas a designation for Jupiter it is simply an intentional perversion of his usual appellation "Baal Shamem" ("lord of heaven"), is quite plausible,[citation needed] as is attested by the perversion of Beelzebub into "Βεελζεβούλ" (Greek version) in Mark 3:22, as well as the express injunction found in Tosef., 'Ab. Zarah, vi. (vii) and Babli 'Ab. Zarah, 46a that the names of idols may be pronounced only in a distorted or abbreviated form.

Was it common for people to talk about a Father in Heaven, or was Jesus saying something uncommon?

Did they accuse him of casting out demons by Beelzebub because he referred to God in terms of either Samen or Jupiter or Zeus? Just wondering. It sounds to me like they accused him of having a religion like mine.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Originally posted by 3NLIGHT3ND1
I'd argue that the world around us is the Kingdom of God.

Funnily enough…so would I…

Although IMO, the Kingdom of Heaven is something that must be realized and become known, by the individual.

Originally posted by 3NLIGHT3ND1
The universe is the most complex thing in existence, in fact it IS existence. There is no possible way we could ever fathom just how huge it is, yet neither can we fathom just how tiny it is either.

Originally posted by 3NLIGHT3ND1
There are billions and billions of atoms in just your fingernail alone, now multiply your tiny fingernail by the size of the universe and try to calculate how many atoms are contained within it. No one will ever know, so it may as well be infinite atoms that make up the universe.

Well said…

I refer to it as the “Infinite Totality”

Originally posted by 3NLIGHT3ND1
Everything is perfect within the universe, the tiniest pebble reacts to the laws of physics just as the biggest rock would. Everything is in order, from the biggest scale to the smallest scale. I still can't understand how no one sees just how perfect existence is. It is so perfect and exact, it MUST be heaven.

From the Gospel of Thomas

(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say, 'See, the Kingdom is
in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they
say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and
you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living
Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty
and it is you who are that poverty."

And

(113) His disciples said to Him, "When will the Kingdom come?" "It will not come by waiting for it. It will
not be a matter of saying 'Here it is' or 'There it is.' Rather,
the Kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth, and men
do not see it."

In Jesus Lords prayer, we have the following words…

“Thy Kingdom come…
On EARTH
As it is in HEAVEN”

Jesus draws a clear parallel between the Kingdom, Earth and Heaven. This doesn’t mean there isn’t an actual Heavenly realm etc…but it clearly shows that this Kingdom can come on the Earth, just as it is in Heaven.

- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

So is Jesus saying that no man can come to “know”, the Kingdom of Heaven, unless he becomes born again etc, or is Jesus saying that you will not “see” it, in the literal sense, unless you become born again…?

Like pthena suggested, go to the biblos web site, rather than trying to use a printed concordance.
interlinearbible.org...
that way you can look at the word not just by the Strongs number but by that particular word's grammatical morphology.

you can click on "idein" and get a list of the verses using the word ὁράω in the Aorist Infinitive Active form.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I edited my post to show why I'm interested in Father in Heaven and Kingdom of Heaven.

Also, it struck me that Jesus didn't seem to mind teaching in the temple (courtyard or something like the Greeks and Romans would hang around rapping Philosophy and such)

I started thinking about it a couple of years ago when LeoVirgo was reading one of the different gospels and the temple was called "the temple JOVAH" I wondered, was that inscribed on the temple somewhere?

Was Herod's temple secretly a temple of Jupiter all along? (kind of an open secret?)

Jupiter_Name_and_epithets
The Latin name Iuppiter originated as a vocative compound of the Old Latin vocative *Iou and pater ("father") and came to replace the Old Latin nominative case *Ious. Jove[101] is a less common English formation based on Iov-, the stem of oblique cases of the Latin name. Linguistic studies identify the form *Iou-pater as deriving from the Indo-European vocative compound *Dyēu-pəter (meaning "O Father Sky-god"; nominative: *Dyēus-pətēr).[102]

Older forms of the deity's name in Rome were Dieus-pater ("day/sky-father"), then Diéspiter.[103] The 19th-century philologist Georg Wissowa asserted these names are conceptually- and linguistically-connected to Diovis and Diovis Pater; he compares the analogous formations Vedius-Veiove and fulgur Dium, as opposed to fulgur Summanum (nocturnal lightning bolt) and flamen Dialis (based on Dius, dies).[104] The Ancient later viewed them as entities separate from Jupiter. The terms are similar in etymology and semantics (dies, "daylight" and Dius, "daytime sky"), but differ linguistically. Wissowa considers the epithet Dianus noteworthy.[105][106] Dieus is the etymological equivalent of ancient Greece's Zeus and of the Teutonics' Ziu (genitive Ziewes). The Indo-European deity is the god from which the names and partially the theology of Jupiter, Zeus and the Indo-Aryan Vedic Dyaus Pita derive or have developed.[107]

The Greek word THEOS (God) comes out of all this etymology too.

reply to post by Joecroft


It would also explain this verse within the bible:

Matthew 18
18 "Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

What's bound/loosed on Earth will be bound/loosed in Heaven because Earth sits within heaven. The only difference between the two is that the inhabitants of Earth have been taught otherwise, which is why Jesus says this:

John 3
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’

The reason no one sees the Kingdom is because we have been taught otherwise, that it only comes after this life. He was speaking of this planet's blindness to its true place in heaven.

To be born again is to literally be born again, through reincarnation. To be born of water and spirit is to be born from your mother's water (amniotic fluid), and be born with a soul/spirit. No need for baptism in my opinion.

reply to post by Joecroft


Keep in mind... No one has ever been to heaven that hasn't already come from said place...

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Baptism in water is a symbol for those who have received the resurrected spirit and purposefully pursue love. You see we all fall away from the Spirit of Love that is alive in us children. When we accept God as a loving father we can remove the veil of sin from our eyes and accept the love of the father within. Thus becoming at one again with the Spirit of Love. Our faith in love renewed we can approach love through the eyes of a child once again.

Baptism in water is not in itself necessary for salvation, it is rather meant to be a testament to your faith. The resurrection of the Spirit of Love in a man is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the baptism that comes to a man who believes in love and pursues love.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

The reason no one sees the Kingdom is because we have been taught otherwise, that it only comes after this life. He was speaking of this planet's blindness to its true place in heaven.

To be born again is to literally be born again, through reincarnation. To be born of water and spirit is to be born from your mother's water (amniotic fluid), and be born with a soul/spirit. No need for baptism in my opinion.

Why wait for reincarnation if you can see/perceive it now? Was Gnosticism supposed to be more of a stripping away of propaganda? I guess I should direct this to Akragon

Hey Akragon: see question above.

reply to post by Akragon


What if everyone has been to heaven but some don't know it? Jesus never said no one has been to heaven and never limited his statement to only a certain group of people.

If this isn't our first incarnation, that would mean that we have all been to heaven before, because we have been here (the universe) before.

reply to post by sacgamer25


You have already been resurrected my friend, you just don't realize it. The act of baptism was created in order to hide the importance of child birth in my opinion.

Baptism is only a euphemism for child birth, nothing more.

reply to post by pthena


In my opinion, you cannot avoid reincarnation, it is the natural process and cycle of the universe. We all have already been reincarnated countless times before this incarnation, except most do not remember. I remember.

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

The reason no one sees the Kingdom is because we have been taught otherwise, that it only comes after this life. He was speaking of this planet's blindness to its true place in heaven.

To be born again is to literally be born again, through reincarnation. To be born of water and spirit is to be born from your mother's water (amniotic fluid), and be born with a soul/spirit. No need for baptism in my opinion.

Why wait for reincarnation if you can see/perceive it now? Was Gnosticism supposed to be more of a stripping away of propaganda? I guess I should direct this to Akragon

Hey Akragon: see question above.

Well im no scholar my friend... I can only claim to be very well read on "Christian gnostic" texts...

This really depends on what you believe actually... My personal view is that the gnostics were exterminated... and their texts were destroyed to the fullest extent the church could... Likely because they knew something about Jesus that the church didn't want released... So the question really is... who do you believe had the correct information?

Personally I see a lot of problems with gnostic texts and Christian texts... I agree with some aspects of Christianity, but I also agree with some aspects of gnostic texts... For example, I don't believe in Hell... but have you ever read what gnostics believed when it came to hell?

Are you afraid of Hell?

Their view of the afterlife is horrifying... and it likely scared the "hell" out of the church as well...

think theres "propaganda" in both Christian and gnostic texts... Exterminate one sect so your very own propaganda can shine through...

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Akragon

 

What if everyone has been to heaven but some don't know it? Jesus never said no one has been to heaven and never limited his statement to only a certain group of people.

If this isn't our first incarnation, that would mean that we have all been to heaven before, because we have been here (the universe) before.

im actually in favor of that theory myself...

reply to post by pthena

Originally posted by pthena
Since we're looking at Kingdom & Heaven & Enter maybe we can look at Matthew 7:21.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

The “enter” word is a curious one. In fact, even in John 3:3 mentioned in my OP, the word “see” is rendered as (“enter” the Kingdom) in a few other Bible translations.

Without getting too heavy into the concordance analysis just yet; my own view is that, the Kingdom of Heaven is a spiritual Kingdom. Which becomes realized by the individual. Meaning, that when one comes to perceive/know understand it, then it can also be said, that they’ve entered it, in a spiritual sense of the word.

In other words, perceiving/knowing what the kingdom is, IS entering it…the 2 not being mutually exclusive of each other. There is another aspect to all this as well, which is directly connected to the John3:3 verse; that of being “born again” in order to enter/see kingdom.

Using the same site I used in my OP…

“BORN”
G1080
γεννάω
Means to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

”AGAIN”
G509
anōthen

Which means…
1) from above, from a higher place
a) of things which come from heaven or God
2) from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
3) anew, over again


Which is from this word:
G507
anō
Which means…
1) up, upwards, above, on high
2) of the quarters of the heaven, northward
3) of countries, inland, up from the coast
4) of time, formerly


Apart from the obvious tie ins with “Heaven” within the meaning, what Jesus really appears to be saying, is that one must be born from the TOP, or from the ABOVE...or from the BEGINNING...in order to see/enter the Kingdom.

Originally posted by pthena
Was it common for people to talk about a Father in Heaven, or was Jesus saying something uncommon?

Did they accuse him of casting out demons by Beelzebub because he referred to God in terms of either Samen or Jupiter or Zeus? Just wondering. It sounds to me like they accused him of having a religion like mine

lol What Religion would that be…just curious…?


- JC