Seek ye first, the Kingdom of Heaven

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

If this isn't our first incarnation, that would mean that we have all been to heaven before, because we have been here (the universe) before.

Not necessarily. We could have lived the whole time here on Earth since the beginning. Some new agers and such talk about heaven, but who says it's so? We may never have been to heaven. I sure don't think I have been!

Gospel of Thomas

83) Jesus said, "The images are manifest to man, but the light
in them remains concealed in the image of the light of the
Father. He will become manifest, but his image will remain
concealed by his light."

84) Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you rejoice. But
when you see your images which came into being before you, and
which neither die not become manifest, how much you will have to
bear!"

Facets
"Facets" is the 71st episode of the American syndicated science fiction television series Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, the 25th and penultimate episode of the third season.
In this episode, Jadzia Dax undergoes a Trill rite of closure that brings her face to face with the past hosts of her symbiont, forcing her to deal with feelings of inferiority as a Dax host herself.

Dax didn't go off to any heaven between lives.

reply to post by pthena


If we've lived here on Earth since the beginning (which I doubt), then we have still been to heaven because Earth is a piece of heaven, albeit a very corrupt piece.

reply to post by Joecroft

John 1 NIV
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

lol What Religion would that be…just curious…?

Father Sky is chief of my pantheon, because he is the truest reflection of the Greater than Him.

You may then ask, "If the Greatest is greater than Father Sky then why isn't He the chief of the pantheon?"

To which I reply, "Because He is beyond all comprehension. It would be meaningless to make Him chief." The gods just wink when they talk of the chief as top. It's an inside joke, so to speak.

Philosophically though, I'm pretty much Epicurean for some reason, not much for dualism ala Plato et al.

reply to post by Akragon

Originally posted by Akragon

Keep in mind... No one has ever been to heaven that hasn't already come from said place...

I’ll try to bear that in mind…

Good to see you back anyway…not that you ever left lol

- JC

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

then we have still been to heaven because Earth is a piece of heaven, albeit a very corrupt piece.

and you wrote:

Everything is perfect within the universe, the tiniest pebble reacts to the laws of physics just as the biggest rock would. Everything is in order, from the biggest scale to the smallest scale. I still can't understand how no one sees just how perfect existence is. It is so perfect and exact, it MUST be heaven.

Is the tension of corruption that, not only is life harsh in competing with parasites and microorganisms feeding on us and other predators, but even the PTB seem hostile to us. And yet there is a connectedness and harmony still?

Then our ethics must guide us.

reply to post by pthena


I'm not sure I understand your question.

If all possibilities were not possible, then the universe would no longer be perfect. Corruption, disease, famine, war, etc. are all possibilities which make up the perfect whole in my opinion.

You can not have good without bad, light without dark, small without big, etc. You need both sides of the equation in order to appreciate one or the other.

Sorry if I didn't answer your question, like I said, I didn't quite understand it.

reply to post by Joecroft

The “enter” word is a curious one.

That's in Matthew 7:21
interlinearbible.org...
If you go to the page in the biblos web site for that verse, and click on the form that it appears in that verse, you get:
εἰσελεύσεται (eiseleusetai) — 3 Occurrences
One of those is the one you were looking at, another is used in the same way, entering into the kingdom, the third is in John 10:9,

I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

which may make one wonder what in the world Jesus is talking about. Going back out . . what?
Hopefully not some sort of reincarnation, that of course couldn't be what he meant!

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Sorry if I didn't answer your question, like I said, I didn't quite understand it.

It wasn't much of a question, more like a statement with a question mark. No problem.

reply to post by jmdewey60

which make one wonder what in the world Jesus is talking about, going back out. What?
Hopefully not some sort of reincarnation, that of course couldn't be what he meant!

I've had this conversation with a few people and I always get the same answer...

When someone goes in a door, they go out of the other side... Im sorry but I find that hilarious...

You don't think the answer is obvious jmdewey?

Reincarnation is the only explanation to that passage...

reply to post by pthena


How do you view the afterlife, if you don't mind me asking?

reply to post by Akragon

You don't think the answer is obvious jmdewey?

I never looked at it as a question before.
This is why I suggest everyone to read any verse you are thinking about in the Greek.
With that web site, anyone can read it, you don't have to be an expert to do it because they do all the hard work.
The more you read it the easier it gets. And an important thing to do is even a word that you don't know what it means, sound it out in your head at least, and they have it transliterated, but eventually get to where you can read the greek text too.
But the important thing is checking words by narrowing them down to the particular form used, to see how it is used in other verses in the same morphology. It is interesting what kind of connections you can come up with.
Like this one right here, you wouldn't think to much of what Jesus meant by the gate in John 10:9 unless you knew that the only way that word is used in that form is in connection with entering the kingdom.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

How do you view the afterlife, if you don't mind me asking?

Taking the Epicurean position, that the soul is atomic just as the body is. After death, the soul atomizes into the collection of soul (matter?). No whole souls jumping from body to body, rather souls growing from birth nourished to maturity on the soul matter.

That's probably not pure Epicurus, a bit of a pthena spin on it.

Therefore the memories of past lives are as vignettes with sometimes a bit of back-story. Ever wonder how more than one person remembers being the same famous person? That's how that would work.

When it comes to apotheosis, I don't know whether it would be more blessed to remain forever as a set person or be dispersed again. No idea.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon

 

You don't think the answer is obvious jmdewey?

I never looked at it as a question before.
This is why I suggest everyone to read any verse you are thinking about in the Greek.
With that web site, anyone can read it, you don't have to be an expert to do it because they do all the hard work.
The more you read it the easier it gets. And an important thing to do is even a word that you don't know what it means, sound it out in your head at least, and they have it transliterated, but eventually get to where you can read the greek text too.
But the important thing is checking words by narrowing them down to the particular form used, to see how it is used in other verses in the same morphology. It is interesting what kind of connections you can come up with.
Like this one right here, you wouldn't think to much of what Jesus meant by the gate in John 10:9 unless you knew that the only way that word is used in that form is in connection with entering the kingdom.

edit on 4-6-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Well unfortunately im not really good with the concordances anymore... several years ago maybe... but these days I just stick to the book I know best... Lost my old one in a divorce..lol

Perhaps you can help me out... In greek are there four little words or more that mean and in and go out...

It seems to be the translation is pasture... so where did the In and out part come from?

reply to post by Akragon

This really depends on what you believe actually... My personal view is that the gnostics were exterminated... and their texts were destroyed to the fullest extent the church could... Likely because they knew something about Jesus that the church didn't want released... So the question really is... who do you believe had the correct information?
...
think theres "propaganda" in both Christian and gnostic texts... Exterminate one sect so your very own propaganda can shine through...

I've got theories inside theories that try to cut through "official" stories.

For instance, if you look up Jamnia, where the sages met to become the Rabbinic Talmudists, it was an Imperial estate, which means Talmudic Judaism was sponsored by Rome.

Whatever was happening in Jerusalem during the time of Jesus is in a black hole of coverup, the official version back-dates Judaism to a time in which it didn't quite exist yet.

Jerusalem, as a provincial capital of Roman Empire, could have been extremely cosmopolitan. The temple, largest and grandest in the World could very well have served double-duty as Roman state and traditional Hebraic center of worship.

If you consider when Jesus drove out the money changers, what could that mean, but a re-cosmopolitanism of a temporary take over of "Jews only" club. "My Father's house shall be a house of prayer for all people", did he turn it into a prayer house instead of a sacrifice house? Possible. Did he open it to all people (not just Jews)? Possible. When he said my Father's house, did he mean Yahweh or Jupiter? Hmmm! I know what the "official" story is. But is that fact or is that propaganda?

It seems that the only Christianity to survive is the one with Jesus as son of David, Jewish Messiah, sitting on a throne in heaven. Coincidence? I think not!

There is no such thing as monotheism. It doesn't exist. Talmudism has numerous trinities built in. Even Islam has a secret greater Yahweh and lesser Yahweh that are under Allah, originally a Sky God too.

Talmudic Judaism is actually a secret society, once a Rabbi reaches a certain level he changes his name to that of one of the old Semitic deities Baal [some deity] or Baal [some other deity] no one bats an eye. It's hidden in plain sight. And people believe it is monotheism? Why? Because they say so! Like someone shows you three donuts and says, "This is one donut" and you say"Yeees, it is ooone dooonut" (trying to simulate robotic response)

reply to post by Akragon

In greek are there four little words or more that mean and in and go out...

Not sure what you mean.
there is a word for to go in, and a word for to go out,
both words have as their base, erchomai which means to come or go, depending on the usage.
one has the prefix, eis, for in and the other has the prefix, ek, for out.
"pasture" just means pasture.
In the Septuagint, the same word is used in Genesis 47:4

They also said to him, "We have come to live here for a while, because the famine is severe in Canaan and your servants' flocks have no pasture. So now, please let your servants settle in Goshen."

oddly, it is also used in Nahum 2:11 for the feeding ground of the lion's whelps.

a good match for what Jesus was using it as could be Isaiah 49:9,

to say to the captives, 'Come out,' and to those in darkness, 'Be free!' "They will feed beside the roads and find pasture on every barren hill.

which sounds similar to what he said the time when he read from the scroll in the synagogue.
Jeremiah 10:21, in the Septuagint has it mean something more than just a tuft of grass or something, saying that because of the bad shepherds, the pastures "are in confusion".
Jeremiah 23 is something that came up earlier today (or yesterday according to your time zone) on the "Jerusalem" thread, where Dee linked to a web page supposedly explaining the rebuilt temple or whatever. I was quoting the beginning part of that chapter, that has to do with the promise " I will raise up for David a righteous Branch". The Lord is saying through the prophet that He will gather them Himself to pasture where they will prosper and multiply.

reply to post by pthena

Dax didn't go off to any heaven between lives.

that show is kind of stupid because it says, "what is a person but its memories"
so those could just be in some sort of an ethereal database waiting to be accessed.

reply to post by jmdewey60

that show is kind of stupid because it says, "what is a person but its memories"

It's not like I watched it recently. Just an example of dealing with the baggage of past lives. The only thing really that I remember about it was the hazard of turning the body over to the convicted murderer character.

reply to post by pthena


sorry, i was being a smart a**, by watching it just now but not saying so.
it's available on amazon streaming video, free if you have a Prime membership.
I watched it to where she was on the second former host.
but I picked that part up, how it defines a person.
I think there is more to a person than just a memory.
ETA: ok, I watched some more and Dr. Bashir while hosting a deceased former host, says that he continues to live on through her, by way of the simion. So maybe that means if you take on a trill, then you are somehow immortal.
She says "it was nice meeting you" because I guess she never got to know him earlier because he was killed early on in an accident.

reply to post by jmdewey60


sorry these online versions drive me nuts... I was probably looking at the wrong word...

the words IN and OUT... are they not opposites in greek?

Or are there no words for them?

I know greek doesn't translate well into English... but that's why I stick with what I know...

Word study is almost like math to me

Put it this way... every "English" version says the same thing... in AND out...

And personally I don't think God wants me to learn greek, or latin, or ancient Aramaic to read the bible...

reply to post by Akragon

the words IN and OUT... are they not opposites in greek?

Or are there no words for them?

They are prepositions, which in Greek comes from an idea of direction, so those are opposites.

Or are there no words for them?

Those two seem to be used a lot as part of compound words, like what you find in that one verse in John.

. . . I don't think God wants me to learn greek, or latin, or ancient Aramaic . . .

Just the Greek is all you need, I think. To learn Hebrew, first you have to learn German, so that is a nuisance.