Jesus : All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

reply to post by jmdewey60

It means that Jesus is now god.

So what happened to the God who gave him all "authority in heaven and earth"?
Did He retire or something?

(I recall asking the same question on a different thread, to somebody else. Didn't get an answer, just some Bible verses without any explanation.)

reply to post by MasterOfTheDamned

. . . if he is with his disciples always, even to the end of the world, does that mean his disciples are living here till the end? If true then who and where are they in these times.

The end of the age, which happened in 70 AD with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, which practically eliminated the old religious system that was in place when Jesus said that.
The New Age was the Christian Age which we are now in, and was able to be consolidated after that event, the elimination of the new religion's chief rival and enemy.

Scorpie

The problem with theists discussing religious matters with non-theists is that we are never on the same platform.

Well, I don't post in all of your threads. When I do, it is often a thread like this one, where the question concerns some point of Christian doctrine, or something from the Chrisitian Bible.

It seems to me that you and I are on very nearly equal footing in such matters, since neither of us is a Christian apologist.

Thats because, I would first need to convince you that certain religious concepts are real before getting down to the details of it.

As long as any hypothesis is well-formed and logically possible, it is discussable. Besides, "getting down to the details of it" is often a step along the way toward judging whether or not something is real. Either order, then, might arise in conversation.

For example, do you think I can discuss heaven and hell with you, if you don't even believe in the basic premises of an afterlife.. or heaven and hell? I think not.

I have had discussions with other people who believe in an afterlife, and among them, there were all sorts of different beliefs about what that afterlife might be like, including various ideas about heaven or hell, or closely related concepts under other names. It's not obvious why I couldn't have such a conversation with you.

In any case, all members of the ATS community may contribute to any thread here. It seems to me that you have complained about another site's religious qualification for posting in some threads, when you had something you wanted to contribute from your religious perspective, which was different from what the other site required for posting to the thread(s) in question.

I'd think you'd be pleased that ATS has no such thing. I am.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

So what happened to the God who gave him all "authority in heaven and earth"?
Did He retire or something?

Nothing.
Why would anything happen to Him?
Jesus, when he was talking about his God, did not mean the god that the Jews believed in.
Jesus told them to their face that they did not know God, and that he did, because he came from above.
And that their knowledge came from below.
So, the "god" was really just a figment of their imagination that had to be laid to rest, like children growing up and leaving behind their imaginary friend.
Now that 'god' was very real in some people's minds and it had to take the physical destruction of that 'god's' dwelling place on earth before people could get a grip on the reality that there was no 'god' living in that place to start with, and there never was.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Jesus, when he was talking about his God, did not mean the god that the Jews believed in

Even then.... what happens to Jesus' God, who gave him all the authority?
Does he, according to you, retire?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Even then.... what happens to Jesus' God, who gave him all the authority?
Does he, according to you, retire?

It's hard to get unstuck from the idea that the Old Testament god is the same person as God.
The OT god was a regional deity over a particular people who were "His people" and He was "their god".
The New Testament works to convince people that that way of thinking is obsolete and that there is a greater universal God who was introduced to the world by Jesus.
That God has always existed, and always will, even though we have as representative of Heaven, the man, Jesus Christ, and we have as representative of man to Heaven, that same person.
It's just pointed out in the NT that whatever status the god of the OT held, is now conferred to Jesus and so is lacking none of the attributes necessary to be Lord over us, the entire Earth.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
If Jesus began ruling the world, then the world should have transformed into a peaceful utopia and we would have been born in a perfect world under Jesus' rule and authority.

WHY would you think such a thing?? God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit ... they are running everything and always have and yet the world has never been a peaceful utopia. Sin doesn't die off because God is running things. Neither does illness. God didn't smite the hoards of those who fought against him through the centuries. He just lets creation unfold.

Why would you think that suddenly everything would be transformed into a peaceful utopia?
Or is this just ANOTHER thread that is put forth to try to get Christians to dump Jesus as God??
Yep. That's what I'm thinking.

reply to post by jmdewey60

It's hard to get unstuck from the idea that the Old Testament god is the same person as God.

My question was rather simple. If Jesus' God was not the OT God... and if Jesus "becomes" God like you said earlier... what happens to Jesus' God who gave him all that authority?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
So what happened to the God who gave him all "authority in heaven and earth"?
Did He retire or something?

I'm not surprised that a Muslim would see things like that. The Qu'ran is rather earthbound in it's thoughts and it paints a picture of the afterlife to be a rather temporal like mirror image of how things on earth are.

Things in the spiritlife aren't anything like the earth. People aren't married. They dont' have sex. They don't give birth. They dont' eat. They don't drink. They 'live like the angels' (quote from Jesus Himself). Much of the Qu'ran contradicts what Jesus says, so to properly understand the afterlife, you'll have to dump all the notions that the Qu'ran has put in your head and read what Jesus REALLY said in the bible .. without the Qu'ran contradictions to confuse you.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Why would you think that suddenly everything would be transformed into a peaceful utopia?

Because thats what Christians believe would happen after Jesus returns as a conqueror... and take control as the ruler of the world.

But it turns out that Jesus received "authority" over the earth shortly after his resurrection. The utopian era should have begun way back then. There is a genuine problem there.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

Why would you think that suddenly everything would be transformed into a peaceful utopia?

Because thats what Christians believe would happen after Jesus returns as a conqueror... and take control as the ruler of the world.

But it turns out that Jesus received "authority" over the earth shortly after his resurrection. The utopian era should have begun way back then. There is a genuine problem there.

From an unbiased standpoint, this does seem like a problem to logic.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Much of the Qu'ran contradicts what Jesus says, so to properly understand the afterlife, you'll have to dump all the notions that the Qu'ran has put in your head and read what Jesus REALLY said in the bible .. without the Qu'ran contradictions to confuse you.

As if bringing up the Koran automatically invalidates the questions raised in the OP.Any Christian could have asked the same questions I did. i.e- Why is it that Jesus has authority over the earth and still allows for evil to exist?

The Christian argument seems to be that the world will change for the better once Jesus' reign begins. But we see that Jesus' has already been given authority over heaven and earth... meaning he has the right to run the world the way he wants to. That right there is the problem.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

My question was rather simple. If Jesus' God was not the OT God... and if Jesus "becomes" God like you said earlier... what happens to Jesus' God who gave him all that authority?

Nothing.
Apparently, according to Jesus in the Gospel of John, the God who to him was God, was someone not seen previously by any man, and at least in his time here, was not know by the people who were supposed to be knowledgeable about God.
So, rather than God going into some sort of obscurity thanks to the prominent position of Jesus, He is actually more well known, and worthy of worship and our thanks, than He would have been previously.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


The main reason it doesn't make sense is because the resurrection never happened. I find anything having to do with Jesus after the resurrection suspicious.

Jesus also said hell wouldn't prevail against the church and we see how that turned out. They're nothing but a bunch of kiddy fiddlers at the top, so was that in Jesus' mind when he said hell wouldn't prevail? Did he see kiddy fiddling as okay? I don't think so, which puts that comment into question as well.

In my opinion, the resurrection and the events afterward were completely fabricated in order to fit an agenda.

reply to post by arpgme


DING DING DING!

Good point and I agree. The death/resurrection, a.k.a. Pauline Jesus is Satan. The Jesus of the gospels (minus the miracles) is the real Jesus in my opinion. What Paul turned him into is Satan.

If Jesus began ruling the world, then the world should have transformed into a peaceful utopia and we would have been born in a perfect world under Jesus' rule and authority.

When did Jesus have rule and authority on earth?

He was killed before that could happen.

That's why the Bible tells us that it will now be a future event to prove who he was all along.

The world is suffering right now for having rejected Jesus to begin with.

Jesus will return to carry out rule and authority on earth when the time is right.

reply to post by Deetermined


He said so after his resurrection. Did you read the OP? How has Jesus been rejected when he is more popular than ever today?

Originally posted by homeslice
Sounds like jesus thought he was running a dictatorship.

....So did Caesar

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


I'm talking about the rejection of Christ that led to his crucifixion.

He is currently waiting for all of those who will believe and have faith in him to be completed before he returns.

Obviously, after 2,000 years, that number of believers hasn't been reached yet to prompt his return.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Being given authority over the earth, is obviously a big deal. So if the Bible tells us Jesus was given authority over heaven and earth, then its as good as saying Jesus started ruling the world.

Never has power been so necessary and yet so useless at the same time. Either crap or get off the darn pot, Cheezus Rice. If you're not willing to drive, hand over the stinkin' keys and let us get the job done for you. Don't worry, you can damn us later.