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Thanks for the well-thought out reply.
I agree with a lot of this as well. My thought is that Jesus didn't "need" to come to Earth for us to have eternal life, I believe we all have that by default. What we did "need" Jesus for was to help us realize this good news (pun intended) and that news is that we all have eternal life no matter who we believe in.
Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
I guess I am missing where God condemned man to begin with? If that were the literal attitude in the Old/New Testament, I'm baffled how Heaven fits in.
Now I only have my growing up around the Church and Protestant Sunday School to go by for formal instruction on Scripture but I don't recall God condemning us all. I do recall the concept of universal sin and we're all guilty of it in some form, but with that came the concept of boundless love and forgiveness available to those who seek it.
^^ Whether I believe or follow some or none, is secondary. That's how I generally understand God to feel about the matter, if the Bible is taken as the strict guide to that. So..what am I missing? (Sincere question, OP, if you have a serious answer?)
Originally posted by charles1952
Sorry, I just noticed who the OP is. Forget it.
Originally posted by rival
A little attention to detail....I pretty sure you meant this instead.....
"For God to (die) for you just to (condemn) you is ridiculous and immoral"
At least it makes sense that way. I've always wondered which group is more
deluded, atheists or theists.
One thing I've learned after fifty years in this life is that when two factions oppose each other,
one black, one white....the truth is always somewhere in the grey middle.
A better question for you OP, would be, "Why would a God need to die as a sacrifice (unto)
himself to save ANYTHING?edit on 4-11-2012 by rival because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by Greatest I am
1 Colossians 1:
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Who did God produce as offspring? The Son.
Apply your verses now between the two. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Who again bears the sin? The Son is the image of God, the FIRSTBORN over ALL creation. What does the firstborn possess from the Father? The inheritance. All things were for Him. He is before all things and in him all things hold together.
Who are the Sons of the Son (Father of Mankind)? Are you familiar with Adam Kadmon? If you are familiar with this concept, then further consider the Jubilee Laws set by God and the kinsman relationship of Jesus. The Cross was the symbol in the material world for what was initially done for mankind at the starting point of the cosmos. Just like the Word represents the idea, so the life of the Living Word represents the root meaning behind the symbol. By Adam we fell and by Adam we are saved. The Son bears the sin from A to Z (Last Adam / Jesus).
The same can be said for Baptism. We are not saved by being baptized. It is a symbol of our repentance from sin. Once baptized, we are to rise to new life. Now consider the symbolism. You are immersed into this life as an act of repentance. You are broken from one loaf of bread and poured from one cup. You are made as clay and stamped with the seal of the Son of God. He is the archetype for you so you can repent in the material world and rise back to unity with the Father. Who is your Father? The Son. See this Thread
Think it through. The cross was a symbol and the true act is the soul of the Son broken up into the multiplicity of parts. The point of involution is evolution. The Son is being raised and is also the Father of the next generations. See this thread: Involution and Evolution
If you can get all this straight (and it is not easy), then consider that you are the image of God. Genesis 1:27 states it this way.
Genesis 1:27
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
We are INSIDE the image created by God (Cosmos). The image is of God (Son of God) and broken into fragments (Unity to Multiplicity). The Son is being raised. Jesus had to come and do what none of the other parts of Himself (Images) could do. God was raising Jesus as the Son (LORD / Good Shepherd) along the way. Once the time was right, Jesus had to enter the waters and be baptized (Immersed into reality). He lived a perfected life and become the last Adam. Ironically, he is also the first Adam and all others in between. Is Jesus God? Yes and the first image. Are we the image of the Son? Yes and imperfect until we follow the lead of our savior. Can we do it alone? No more than the Son of God could have done it alone. He needed a Father. As Christ is, so shall we be. It's not up to us, but Jesus will judge each according to their faith.
The question is this: Did you repent while in the water? It's what you are here to do. "You must be born again." and we are behind the veil so we don't know what is happening. Read about the Wool over your Eyes as the Lamb. Sin is Wool.
If you get this, then the pretext you created can now be replaced with the true context. It's beautiful and the Son has been with us for every sin we have committed. He bears our sin as our High Priest and has since the very beginning. We are made from His image and will be remade by the next new image that God produces through the Son. We can choose to deny this as well.
It's a gift.
edit on 4-11-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
To the OP:
I don't think it's immoral but I do believe it's ridiculous. So god sacrificed himself to himself in order to save us from himself? Sounds pretty ridiculous to me.
Originally posted by SpiritofEnoch
God does endorse human sacrifice in certain situations if it is necessary. He "endorsed" it when he told Abraham to kill Isaac. He showed it wasn't necessary in that situation by sending his angel and a ram for a burnt offering, which is also something God is seemingly pleased by. But remember, we're talking about a completely different era. A burnt offering now might well be something as simple as giving up cigarettes. It's something that you say to God "I don't need this, because I have you" with.
However, human sacrifice is different. Thou shalt not kill is one of the commandments. Jesus is not dead. The righteous do not fear death. What you're asking is "is it moral for God to put on a charade in the interest of making men righteous?" And the answer is yes.
Originally posted by SpiritofEnoch
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
From the view of the men who did it, their souls will react like it is murder. Judas couldn't live with his guilt and hung himself. But when God "killed himself," he did so knowing fully well that it was only an act for mankind. But you cannot try God by man's standards, for no man understands what it is like to be God.
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by SpiritofEnoch
But both christians know they will have eternal life so why should they feel like it's murder? They both know each other has eternal life.
I know what it's like to be god, I'm sorry that you don't.edit on 4-11-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)
Thanks for all this but I did not see if you embrace the notion of human sacrifice or not or if you believe that to punish the innocent instead of the guilty is good justice or not.
Care to share?
Regards
DL
Psalm 11:4
The LORD is in his holy temple; the LORD is on his heavenly throne. He observes the sons of men; his eyes examine them.
Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by Greatest I am
Thanks for all this but I did not see if you embrace the notion of human sacrifice or not or if you believe that to punish the innocent instead of the guilty is good justice or not.
Care to share?
Regards
DL
God desires mercy and not sacrifice. When God says this in scripture, who is that message to? Who is the message in Psalms to from David and who does it give allusions to? In both cases, the answer of raising a Son is that the Son is the LORD in scripture and the scripture is part of that Word Jesus hears from His Father. We are stamped from the same soul as the Son and in Him, all things hold together. Just a review of where we are so far. The Word of God in written form is the chronicle of the raising of the Son. Jesus was the last Adam and after this, the end resurrection of the Son (righteous church) is all of us in the first resurrection along side the wicked. What is the sacrifice of the beast? How is the altar cleansed? What is the reason for the fire and the water in the process? We need to see the root symbolism to know what is getting ready to happen as our High Priest does his duties. It will not seem pleasant. What you know of sacrifice is what will happen to the beast.
We must endure this to rise. In the process, the beast is burnt and not the one the sacrifice was made for. That too should give us reason to sacrifice the beast ourselves from the water. Water puts out fire and we have the choice to use the water to cleanse the temple. Jesus offers Himself as the sacrifice for us. We would be foolish to deny this gift.
Matthew 3
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
How clear have I made this for you as you read these verses? The leaders are the ones put in position by God for a reason. They deny God and are refused baptism. As for me, I welcome the chance to use the water to cleanse my temple. I am working each day to deny my beasts in life. Here is what we should deny.
2 Timothy 3:2-4
“For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents (6), unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control (6), brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God” (6).
Notice how many identifiers there are with selfishness as the mark of 18 traits. 18 is 6 6 6. Carbon is our mark of technology and the thing that we have in our hands and foreheads. The eye cannot get enough and the hands cannot take enough. If you know the symbols, you can see the truth behind the ritual and where it points at the end. The fruit of knowledge is what it produces. Oddly enough, the fruit of God's word is also what it produces in the seeker of faith.
What do we use to make confessions? The Breath. Oxygen is 7 protons, 7 electrons and 7 neutrons (777 is the mark of God in the Bible). Oxygen is 888 and Jesus in Greek Gematria. The breath we are given as the beast allows us to overcome the Carbon. We are baptized five times. Earth, Air, Water and Fire. Spirit is gained from the process and our final baptism gives us Holy Consciousness. Love fulfills the law.
Hydrogen is one proton and one electron in a balanced state of unity (Positive and negative). The neutral that comes into reality with hydrogenesis bonds creates a state where God is in the middle. The proton and neutron are in the center with the electron flying about. Even the elements proclaim God's goodness. As it turns out, you can identify all of physics from Genesis and all elements are there pictured. We see law and God shows us physics. Take the blinders off and the beast is Carbon. We simply need to look to know.
edit on 4-11-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Greatest I am
Excuse me, I misunderstood the question. Yes, I think human sacrifice is immoral. I thought you were asking if it was immoral for god to kill himself. I thought of it as suicide, which I do not believe is immoral. I don't recommend it but it's your life, as long as you don't hurt anyone else then it's your choice.
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Greatest I am
Christians think abortion is murder probably because they think that child never had a chance to get into heaven.
I think murder is murder, no matter who it is. It's not our place to kill anyone for no reason.
Thanks for all this but I did not see if you embrace the notion of human sacrifice or not or if you believe that to punish the innocent instead of the guilty is good justice or not.
Care to share?
Regards
DL