Help me challenge my beliefs.

Originally posted by Furbs

Originally posted by SpaceGoatsFarts
The scientific method? Like I said, I don't reject it. Mysticism is practical experimentation too you know, contrary to theology.

What is the mystical method of your experimentation? What have you done that can be verified scientifically?

It may come as a surprise to you, but the list of great scientists who believes in something greater than science is rather long.

here an excerpt

Galileo & Copernicus(heliocentrism)? Mendel(genetics)?Roger "frigging scientific method" Bacon?Lemaitre(Big Bang theory)?Newton(gravitation)?Descartes, Leibniz ,Faraday, etc... etc...

You seem to have strong preconceptions regarding how the scientific method can only come to the rejection of things called "spiritual' and "esoteric".

So, nothing in your experience with Mysticism can be backed up by Science?

What is the draw to Mysticism then?
What are you getting from it?

Originally posted by SpaceGoatsFarts
reply to post by Furbs

 

To prove its validity, one must accept to experience it first hand.

Okay. This is a starting point.

I accept to experience it first hand.

Now, how do I go about doing it?

Originally posted by Furbs
So, nothing in your experience with Mysticism can be backed up by Science?

Nope. Like I said, different framework. It's a personal science, it has to be proven personally. But anyway I don't have the urge to prove it because I don't see the point. It works for me, and even if it's delusion, at least that delusion improves my life in qualitatie way, dramatically. That's all I'm asking from it. Not to be proven for the rest of the world. Science can keep it's title. It's not a pissing contest.

Originally posted by Furbs

What is the draw to Mysticism then?
What are you getting from it?

What do you prefer, to know more, or to live better?

I prefer the second, and Science can't provide answer to that.

Originally posted by Furbs

Originally posted by SpaceGoatsFarts
reply to post by Furbs

 

To prove its validity, one must accept to experience it first hand.

Okay. This is a starting point.

I accept to experience it first hand.

Now, how do I go about doing it?

Not in a different way than with science.

Read about it, and even better if you can, find a teacher to guide you.


edit: BTW, this is a field where cultural background may have a personal importance, so if you're drawn more toward one or the other philosophies of the world (abrahamic faiths, hinduism, buddhism, zen, ...) you can choose the one you prefer since they all have their own mystical literature and teachings.

Originally posted by Furbs

What is the draw to Mysticism then?
What are you getting from it?

What do you prefer, to know more, or to live better?

I prefer the second, and Science can't provide answer to that.

Science cannot provide a means to live better?

Well, I am in a house.. with a bed.. and a computer. These things make my life better, and these things come from Technology. Technology comes from scientific inquiry.

What in your life is better because of Mysticism?
What are you -getting- from it?

Originally posted by Furbs

Science cannot provide a means to live better?

Well, I am in a house.. with a bed.. and a computer. These things make my life better, and these things come from Technology. Technology comes from scientific inquiry.

What in your life is better because of Mysticism?
What are you -getting- from it?

Science increases comfort, not happiness (unless we're talking about pills). Have you travelled much in your life? Don't you find it strange that people who go to Africa or Asia will tell you that people seem generally (if no war or famine) happier there? It's because we tend to believe that to own is to be happy. Actually, to own is to become a slave to the attachment to the things you own.

You buy a new car, after one day you see a scratch on it. How will people react usually? Is it rational to be mad for a scratch? Is it worth it to be unhappy for such a mundane thing?

Our lives are full of these little things that makes us unhappy because we have too much.

I'm not saying science is useless (it saves lives and that's what the company I work for does), but it's just a tool that can be used for good and for bad alike. The goal of science isn't happiness. It's not a guarantee for such.

reply to post by SpaceGoatsFarts
The use of tree comes from the new ...and the old ....both are alluded to in type and I am thinking it has more to do with the roots than what is seen....I am going to go watch this .. www.youtube.com... and come back to this thread ....I am thinking I need a lesson in reality ...peace

Originally posted by SpaceGoatsFarts

Originally posted by Furbs

Science cannot provide a means to live better?

Well, I am in a house.. with a bed.. and a computer. These things make my life better, and these things come from Technology. Technology comes from scientific inquiry.

What in your life is better because of Mysticism?
What are you -getting- from it?

Science increases comfort, not happiness (unless we're talking about pills). Have you travelled much in your life? Don't you find it strange that people who go to Africa or Asia will tell you that people seem generally (if no war or famine) happier there? It's because we tend to believe that to own is to be happy. Actually, to own is to become a slave to the attachment to the things you own.

You buy a new car, after one day you see a scratch on it. How will people react usually? Is it rational to be mad for a scratch?

I would counter that Comfort increases your ability to be Happy. Therefore, Science increases your Happiness directly proportional to how much Discomfort you are avoiding.


Now..

What in your life is better because of Mysticism?
What are you -getting- from it?

Originally posted by Furbs

Originally posted by SpaceGoatsFarts

Originally posted by Furbs

Science cannot provide a means to live better?

Well, I am in a house.. with a bed.. and a computer. These things make my life better, and these things come from Technology. Technology comes from scientific inquiry.

What in your life is better because of Mysticism?
What are you -getting- from it?

Science increases comfort, not happiness (unless we're talking about pills). Have you travelled much in your life? Don't you find it strange that people who go to Africa or Asia will tell you that people seem generally (if no war or famine) happier there? It's because we tend to believe that to own is to be happy. Actually, to own is to become a slave to the attachment to the things you own.

You buy a new car, after one day you see a scratch on it. How will people react usually? Is it rational to be mad for a scratch?

I would counter that Comfort increases your ability to be Happy. Therefore, Science increases your Happiness directly proportional to how much Discomfort you are avoiding.


Now..

What in your life is better because of Mysticism?
What are you -getting- from it?

Again, I'm not saying one is better than the other. Nor that they are exclusive. They just have different objectives.

Science is a tool that allows us to understand the world and to change it, and to create things. All this can lead to happiness as well as destruction. Science, like finance, doesn't seek to be ethic or moral. It's not immoral, it's amoral. Science is only moral if it's use is.


Mysticism (and philosophy) is a tool that allows us to understand the world and to appreciate it how it is, without changing it. It's ultimate objective is the personal realization and the resulting happiness, an objective that all can achieve without any material investment.


Science tells you the world needs to change to fit you. Mysticism tells you you need to change to fit the world. One of these 2 pursuits is a lost cause. The other is possible.

My life is better thanks to mysticism because all fears have completely disappeared from my life. And I mean all of them. Can you imagine a life without fear? Do you think you would like it? If no, then it's probably not for you.

Originally posted by SpaceGoatsFarts
Science tells you the world needs to change to fit you. Mysticism tells you you need to change to fit the world. One of these 2 pursuits is a lost cause. The other is possible.

Not sure what is meant by that..

As a species, we have been changed by the world into our present form. Now we are to a point where we can change the world to fit our demands. This is why we no longer live in caves (for the most part). How is it a lost cause?

My life is better thanks to mysticism because all fears have completely disappeared from my life. And I mean all of them. Can you imagine a life without fear? Do you think you would like it? If no, then it's probably not for you.

edit on 29-1-2012 by SpaceGoatsFarts because: (no reason given)

How did Mysticism take away your fear?

Originally posted by Furbs
Not sure what is meant by that..

As a species, we have been changed by the world into our present form. Now we are to a point where we can change the world to fit our demands. This is why we no longer live in caves (for the most part). How is it a lost cause?

You can't fill a bottomless cup. There will always be something to improve. And it will always be more expensive.

Originally posted by Furbs
How did Mysticism take away your fear?

The way any armchair psychologist can tell you to do it. Face them. Mysticism isn't really mysterious and secret knowledge. It's actually pretty much common sense.

It's just that some fears are difficult to face in a controlled environment, like the fear of death for example. Some will do bungee jumping, others will find another way.

Originally posted by SpaceGoatsFarts
You can't fill a bottomless cup. There will always be something to improve. And it will always be more expensive.

You can make the need to fill a bottomless cup null if your resources surpass the rate at which they descend the cup. You can even get to the point in which you are filling the bottomless cup so fast that you shatter it's sides completely because the pressures exerted by the force of the fill exceed that which the cup can handle.

Originally posted by Furbs
How did Mysticism take away your fear?

The way any armchair psychologist can tell you to do it. Face them. Mysticism isn't really mysterious and secret knowledge. It's actually pretty much common sense.

It's just that some fears are difficult to face in a controlled environment, like the fear of death for example. Some will do bungee jumping, others will find another way.

How do you face your fears using Mysticism?

I understand facing them with Bungee Jumping, but Bungee Jumping is rooted in Physics and involves actual danger, but what about Mysticism?

reply to post by Furbs


I'll meditate on this and come back to you later. Thanks for participing, you do provide me with what I was waiting for when I started the thread.

Have a good day sir

Originally posted by Furbs

How do you face your fears using Mysticism?

I understand facing them with Bungee Jumping, but Bungee Jumping is rooted in Physics and involves actual danger, but what about Mysticism?

Science has proved that visualizing something activitates the same neurons as actually witnessing it. And visualizing something is a method that you can train and make more efficient over time But that's just a very small part of the answer actually. I'll leave it that way for today.

Originally posted by SpaceGoatsFarts

Originally posted by Furbs

How do you face your fears using Mysticism?

I understand facing them with Bungee Jumping, but Bungee Jumping is rooted in Physics and involves actual danger, but what about Mysticism?

Science has proved that visualizing something activitates the same neurons as actually witnessing it. And visualizing something is a method that you can train and make more efficient over time

But that's just a very small part of the answer actually. I'll leave it that way for today.

This makes me feel that Mysticism is a placebo activation, interchangeable with anything that could cause those reactions in the brain. From what I have gathered, Mysticism is just the outlet for your own imagining of a world without fear, and not the cause of your removal from fear.

Am I understanding this correctly?

If I am, I guess what I don't understand is..

What belief are you challenging? The belief that mysticism works? It does, clearly, if you live without fear. You even seem to understand the WHY of it.

So, why are you attributing your success to Mysticism, which you say is a tool, when the real work is being done by you?

(The thread has been an enjoyable distraction for an otherwise uneventful day. Cheers.)

Originally posted by Furbs

So, why are you attributing your success to Mysticism, which you say is a tool, when the real work is being done by you?

That's truly the heart of the matter and I promise you we'll develop this later. Unfortunately it's also the part where I might lose you...

If you have the opportunity, check the book I linked. It's a very serious and academic look on the subject, plus it's online so you don't even need to buy it.

Cheers

Read anything by Robert Anton Wilson. I suggest starting with Prometheus Rising, moving on to his Cosmic Trigger Series (this order can easily be reversed), and finishing up with The Illuminatus! Trilogy. He'll cure you of any BS (belief system) right quick. Just a few of his gems:

"My function is to raise the possibility, 'Hey, you know, some of this stuff might be bull#.'"

"Whenever people are certain they understand our peculiar situation here on this planet, it is because they have accepted a religious Faith or a secular Ideology (Ideologies are the modern form of Faiths) and just stopped thinking."

“Belief in the traditional sense, or certitude, or dogma, amounts to the grandiose delusion, 'My current model' -- or grid, or map, or reality-tunnel -- 'contains the whole universe and will never need to be revised.' In terms of the history of science and knowledge in general, this appears absurd and arrogant to me, and I am perpetually astonished that so many people still manage to live with such a medieval attitude.”

“I regard belief as a form of brain damage.”


I should also mention that boingboing celebrated RAW this past month with some great remembrance posts/essays:

boingboing.net...

Originally posted by deometer
Read anything by Robert Anton Wilson. I suggest starting with Prometheus Rising, moving on to his Cosmic Trigger Series (this order can easily be reversed), and finishing up with The Illuminatus! Trilogy. He'll cure you of any BS (belief system) right quick. Just a few of his gems:

"My function is to raise the possibility, 'Hey, you know, some of this stuff might be bull#.'"

"Whenever people are certain they understand our peculiar situation here on this planet, it is because they have accepted a religious Faith or a secular Ideology (Ideologies are the modern form of Faiths) and just stopped thinking."

“Belief in the traditional sense, or certitude, or dogma, amounts to the grandiose delusion, 'My current model' -- or grid, or map, or reality-tunnel -- 'contains the whole universe and will never need to be revised.' In terms of the history of science and knowledge in general, this appears absurd and arrogant to me, and I am perpetually astonished that so many people still manage to live with such a medieval attitude.”

“I regard belief as a form of brain damage.”


I should also mention that boingboing celebrated RAW this past month with some great remembrance posts/essays:

boingboing.net...

This is exactly why I said I wanted to post this thread, to try to crumble my beliefs before they crystallize and make me a slave, but I suppose you haven't really read the OP, have you? :p The OP is more like an excuse for enlightening debates if you still think it's about my beliefs

It's been a long time I wanted to read the illuminati trilogy to put a little more fnord in my life. Thanks for your advice, but this hardly anything new to me

Hail Eris.

And BTW; "my model contains the whole universe and will never need to be revised" and I don't "accept a religious Faith or a secular Ideology" as systems, but only as parameters. HTH

Originally posted by SpaceGoatsFarts

Originally posted by Furbs

So, why are you attributing your success to Mysticism, which you say is a tool, when the real work is being done by you?

That's truly the heart of the matter and I promise you we'll develop this later. Unfortunately it's also the part where I might lose you...

If you have the opportunity, check the book I linked. It's a very serious and academic look on the subject, plus it's online so you don't even need to buy it.

Cheers

You still there Furbs? OK, I promised to develop a little bit. It's going to be delicate if you don't have a basic grasp of what this is about (hence me linking the book), but I'll try anyway.

Why do I attribute my success partly to this tool, if I did all the work?

You see, the problem with these matters (mysticism and all), is that they are full of paradoxes if you look at it from the outside (like science, hence why science can't really prove these experiences), but it totally makes sense when you look at it from the inside. So what I'm going to say here might appear paradoxical to you but I know it and I have no other way around, unless I could make you experience it by yourself. But this is the Grey Area, so take it with a huge block of salt and tell yourself I'm just another person who sees too much patterns around him when there is none, and who posts about that on a forum dedicated to high strangeness (BTW, could you please tell me why you enjoy reading this forum?). I think we already discussed pattern recognition earlier in the thread, and this something that tends to bug when you are on your way to experience symptoms of schizophrenia, so this might explain that. Or maybe not fully.

Sorry I'm becoming cryptic, let's try to keep it simple. Now that this disclaimer has been shared, let's embark on our way towards the lands of the Unexplained and Unexplainable.