Marines Chief Warns Most Are Uncomfortable Serving With Openly Gay Troops

Originally posted by fraterormus
Since a couple more pages of people afraid of being propositioned by a gay man or a lesbian woman have sprung up I figured I'd add another thought. Something that occurred to me is the age disparity between those actually serving in the Corps and those running the Corps.

Those over the maximum enlistment age of 35 (granted, now it's 42)might not have a lot of exposure to those of alternative sexual preferences, whereas those under that age more likely than naught have known a half-dozen or so people of alternative sexual preferences.

I know that I, in civilian life, get hit on by gays all the time (being a Metrosexual who unintentionally conveys being Omnisexual probably sets off people's gay-dar on accident). It doesn't make me uncomfortable to be hit on even though they are totally barking up the wrong tree. Anyone under the age of 35 knows that all it takes is a simple "dood, I'm flattered but I don't swing that way. Sorry, you're just not my type." No feelings hurt, and one no longer has to worry about being hit on by someone who happens to be attracted to the same gender you happen to be. A proposition isn't fighting words that should make one feel threatened. If you draw your boundaries and the other person respects it, then no harm no foul.

However, to those of older generations who didn't grow up during an era of open-mindedness towards sexuality, it very well may be uncomfortable. I know my parents won't even discuss anything sexually oriented. When my father talked to me about the Birds and the Bees it was all coughing followed by "Did you catch all that? Good!" If my father couldn't find the words to talk to his own son about the Birds and the Bees without having a severe coughing fit then I suppose if a gay guy were to hit on my father it would probably make him choke to death.

Really, it does come down to a generational thing. To younger generations being solicited for sex is not a big deal, and for the most part, neither is homosexuality. You don't have to agree with it, you just learn to acknowledge, accept, and move on with the knowledge that homosexuals are people too. The only people who tend to have issue with homosexuality are the older generations who are stuck in their ways and more closed-minded (and still in denial that Rock Hudson was ever gay). In the Corps the Jarheads are going to be of a younger, more accepting generation than those running the Corps who are from an older generation with different life experiences and expectations.

Still, I personally think this whole issue could be resolved easily by disallowing the fraternization of troops. If someone solicits their fellow soldier for sex, then it should be considered Sexual Harassment, just like it is in the civilian world. That's precisely what N.A.T.O. does, so why should the U.S. Military get special treatment to either segregate homosexuals or disallow them from service altogether, when it has been shown after these past couple of decades that they are just as good at performing the duties and oaths they have been sworn to uphold just as well as a heterosexual?

fraterormus, you absolutely nailed it. Well said.

reply to post by lostinau


Saying that heterosexual people need education and a pro active policy change is kind of funny. How about the homosexuals educate themselves that not everyone is going to be accepting, and it has it's place? Your way of thinking sounds more like indoctrination than anything. Of course I'll be flamed, but why does everyone have to change to accept them, how about they make themselvees more acceptable?

reply to post by Tykonos

"Predatory gays are disporportionately attracted to the military", Seriously? Have you got a source to back that claim up? To me, it seems like it's only your opinion which is based on bigotry towards an entire group of people based on the experience of one. You've had a bad experience, I'm really sorry you have but it's clouding your judgement on this issue here mate.

Yes, I have a source. My experience in the real world. Not a study performed by someone with an agenda. My experiences were not isolated, it was a real problem that happened often when I was in. It is a well known fact that many female victims of rape don't report the crime because of embarrasment or shame. Far less males report being victims of rape, especially if they are Marines.

I am defending the well being of Marines (Semper Fi), so I could care less if you call me a bigot. Besides, if you read my posts, I have no problem with them having the right to marry and have all the rights of other groups. But, their rights should not come at the expense of other peoples rights and they should not at the expense of the Marine Corps ability to accomplish their mission.

You say it won't work, the fact is gay people have fought in wars along side their straight mates for years. The only thing they are after is job security. There are Countries that already allow gay people to join up, mine included. It hasn't crushed them units.

You are obviously from a European country and I assume you are an Englishman. America is not like you guys, that is why we fought a war to break away from the British Empire. Maybe we won because the Redcoats were gay and most of our troops were not. The Brits did have pretty snazzy uniforms!

Seriously though, we are a sovereign country. It does not matter what policy the rest of the world's military has with regards to gays. We have a right to make our own choice and most of our American warfighters oppose this strongly.

I know people who have served and are still serving with no problems from their straight mates. Sure they take a bit of banter for it, but that's just like everyone else there.

There you go again with the "mates", in our country a mate is someone you have sex (mate) with. Gays are attrated to the military because they are surrounded with the males they are attracted to in close quarters. Most are not rapists, but look at the situation from a safety standpoint.

If a male is living with a female and she comes back from a bar completely drunk and passes out, many males who may not otherwise be rapists would be tempted to do something with her. That is reality and why men and women in the military don't live in the same rooms. Despite this precaution, rape of females in the military is still not uncommon.

Thanksgiving '92 as Corporal of the Guard, I saw the result of a gay man living in the same quarters with males. Maybe he wasn't a rapist before, but the temptation to rape a guy who was passed out was too great and he did it. On Thanksgiving for Christ's sake! Can you imagine how the victim feels everything Thanksgiving? Sitting there with his family remembering a Thanksgiving 18 years ago that changed his life.

"Gays in the military is no big deal", tell that to him.

Are you "Sorry" this happened to him? Not sorry enough to prevent it from happening to others.

Originally posted by lostinau
You can best rest assured that same sex attraction is overwhelmingly not a choice, is genetic and as such was intended by nature to be that way. Can you imagine how ridiculous it would sound if someone told you that your attraction to the opposite sex was a lifestyle choice that you've learnt? That is the argument that many people are repeatedly putting forward in this thread, like a clulessly ignorant broken record player.

Sorry, Homeslice. Unless there is proven, scientific facts to back that up, it's just your opinion. Just like the opinion of all the "cluelessly ignornant broken record players" out there.

There is no constitutional right to serve in the armed forces. Have a nice day.

reply to post by AP-Chris

Yes, I have a source. My experience in the real world. Not a study performed by someone with an agenda.

Yeah, but that's like saying because I've met a few bad cops in my time I should prejudge every copper out there. Again it's my experience but I know it's not a true reflection of the police service.

My experiences were not isolated, it was a real problem that happened often when I was in

If it was that bad, why didn't somebody do anything about it?

But, their rights should not come at the expense of other peoples rights and they should not at the expense of the Marine Corps ability to accomplish their mission.

It's about equal rights of everyone who serves. There will be gay Marines already there. I don't understand how giving a person the right not to loose their job because of who they get together with on leave will endanger the mission.

You are obviously from a European country and I assume you are an Englishman.

Yep, a proud Englishman, not that there's many of them around nowadays.

America is not like you guys, that is why we fought a war to break away from the British Empire. Maybe we won because the Redcoats were gay and most of our troops were not. The Brits did have pretty snazzy uniforms!

I know it's very different in alot of ways.
I believe you won because we were too busy fighting the French at the time.
It was stupid colour, bright red, what were they thinking? I think it was something to do with showing bravery, they also would stand up to fire at the enemy and not use cover, again very stupid.

It does not matter what policy the rest of the world's military has with regards to gays. We have a right to make our own choice and most of our American warfighters oppose this strongly.

It shouldn't do, but you can learn from the changes made in them Countries to see the effect it has had. Nothing much has changed, apart from people being allowed to stay in the job they love.

There you go again with the "mates", in our country a mate is someone you have sex (mate) with

I didn't know you don't use that word in the way I put it. It does also mean to mate, as in what you have just said, but it depends on the context.

Gays are attrated to the military because they are surrounded with the males they are attracted to in close quarters.

I seriously don't think so, it would be alot easier for them to goto a bar or club to get laid. They join for the same reasons why everyone else joins up.

If a male is living with a female and she comes back from a bar completely drunk and passes out, many males who may not otherwise be rapists would be tempted to do something with her.

There is a difference between making a drunken pass at someone and rape. Are you saying most males are potential rapists once they've had a skinfull of drink?

Most male on male rapes aren't commited by gay men, they are commited by heterosexual men.
Rape is about power, control and humiliation of their victim. They don't do it for sexual pleasure.

I feel bad for anyone who has been raped. Imo, all rapists should be castrated.

reply to post by Tykonos

Most male on male rapes aren't commited by gay men, they are commited by heterosexual men.

What is your source on that? That is quite a leap. Giving gays a pass and blaming it (once again) on the evil heterosexual male

I wish people like you would stop being so naive about the dark part of gay culture.

You quoted nearly my entire post but skipped over the part were a passed out Marine was raped while I was on duty. Again, you just want to gloss over the ugly side that exists in the real world and say sorry that isolated incident happened.

It was far from isolated. You don't hear about it in the media much because it is bad for recruiting, but it very much exists.

Tell that Marine who was raped, "Sorry that happened, it was just an isolated incident and it is more important to protect the rights of gays."

I am so sick of people in their safe little worlds telling us how we should be. I have seen the ugly side of this world. If you don't want to listen to people like me who have been there, sooner or later we will stop fighting for you. Then you will be on your own and see the dark side for yourselves.

I don't think the main concern of people would be being uncomfortable and worrying about working with or getting hit on by gays. Most gay people will probably still keep pretty quiet about being gay for a long time to come. Even if they were openly gay, as long as they were professional, pulled their weight and didn't bring it up 400 times a day there won't be any problems.

Unfortunatly I think the main problems would be with the younger, unsure and immature millitary people (possibly even gays in denial to prove they aren't to their buddies) getting drunk and going on gay searches to start confrontations.

And heck for the billeting, I'm sure there aren't too many open squadbays and shared showers left at too many bases. So that shouldn't be too bad. Boot camp would be a different situation, I'm sure it's still group showers and squad bays there and I don't know how they would deal with that if news of recruits being openly gay got out.

I wouldn't have any problem with it, they signed up to try and help their country out......unless they are there only because it's were all the hot guys are. Ewwwwlll.

Whatever craziness happens people can adapt. It is a pretty tough topic though.

---And besides, the ratio of gay people in the millitary is most likely still the same as the civilian world, it's just kept quiet.

--You guys ever see the mini-series Generation Kill, when the SHTF no one would be turning Fruity Rudy's help away. As long as he's not at your six. HaHa Just kidding.

Originally posted by signal2noise

Originally posted by lostinau
You can best rest assured that same sex attraction is overwhelmingly not a choice, is genetic and as such was intended by nature to be that way. Can you imagine how ridiculous it would sound if someone told you that your attraction to the opposite sex was a lifestyle choice that you've learnt? That is the argument that many people are repeatedly putting forward in this thread, like a clulessly ignorant broken record player.

Sorry, Homeslice. Unless there is proven, scientific facts to back that up, it's just your opinion. Just like the opinion of all the "cluelessly ignornant broken record players" out there.

There is no constitutional right to serve in the armed forces. Have a nice day.

Gay people have been born of straight parents throughout history throughout the world. Most gay people feel same sex attraction from a young age, just as straight people feel attraction to the opposite sex from a young age; it's no different. Clearly, all of this points to sexuality being genetic and therefore totally natural, exactly like attraction to the opposite sex is for straight people.

Why can't they just be happy joining the catholic priesthood?

No consequences there for being gay or fondling boys.

Oh, that's right, men who fondle boys must be straight.

And the denial goes on...

Originally posted by usmc858
I wouldn't have any problem with it, they signed up to try and help their country out......unless they are there only because it's were all the hot guys are. Ewwwwlll.

Whatever craziness happens people can adapt. It is a pretty tough topic though.

---And besides, the ratio of gay people in the millitary is most likely still the same as the civilian world, it's just kept quiet.

--You guys ever see the mini-series Generation Kill, when the SHTF no one would be turning Fruity Rudy's help away. As long as he's not at your six. HaHa Just kidding.

edit on 21-10-2010 by usmc858 because: Added Thought

Most people of a younger generation do not care about sexuality and will not go off the deep end if they get checked out by a gay guy. Gay guys in the military are obviously smart enough not to do that and in all likelyhood have no interest in the other guys they spend all of their time with; it may even gross them out to check out a straight guys they work with, and funnily enough there may even be more chance of a straight guy checking them out. Strange but true.

You can tell from reading this thread that the older guys completely freak out at this subject, however the younger the posters get the more tolerant they become. As for gay bashers targetting gay people in the military, this is a hate crime and therefore a criminal matter that would be dealt with in that context, just as hate crime is in the civilian world.

Through education and gay friendly policies any organisations culture can change from the top down, until any kind of homophobia becomes unnacceptable and those who attempt to incite hate are dealt with swiftly. It's really not rocket science.

i can hear r lee emry now-
Listen up you rump rustling horndogs-
this is the marine corps- not a support group for homophobic fag baits..
be afraid of close quarters with the goddamn gooks! not your
fellow troops. youre there to watch each other back- not wash it!..
well get you anti homo comforters so you wont feel uncomfortable.
and tuck you in every balmy night.
lock and load your own gun private panties..
no grab ass in the chow line- no friggin in the riggin!
now if you ladies dont mind-
THERES A GOD DAMN WAR GOING ON!
i dont care if youre straight- i only need straight shooters!
get your homo-mojo squared away and prepare to kick ass-not kiss ass.
now-i see private panties has an absolutely captivating camo make up
and his bunk more a loft it's so squared away - you knuckle draggers
take a lesson. and get a clue subaru
nothing attracts girls like gay guys in uniforms.
and there you will be - to pick the hunnies when they find
he'd not interested. tactics rookie- pay attention.
adapt improvise and overcome..and i dont mean in a gay way.
now for a little run with the marvelous matching outfits by Uncle Sam.
what a darling platoon..

Originally posted by Quadrivium

Can you control your sexual interest in women you interact and work with? I'm assuming you were born straight, and am fairly sure you're not permanently obsessed with the opposite sex.

Gay people are not all sex crazed maniacs; another silly stereotype.

I did not stereotype anyone, unless it is the human race.
Most people I know can not turn this on and off like a light switch. Sometimes you're just attracted to someone else.
Now if you are attracted to someone and had to continually do the three S's with this person day in and day out, do you really believe there would be no tension?
Simple fact: If you want to serve- Then serve.
If you don't- then don't.
Your sexual orientation has nothing to do with it, so why mention it unless you want the attention?
How many straight people do you see running around announcing how straight they are? They don't because people can see it in the way they live their lives most times.
Don't ask Don't tell = It is no ones business but your own. I think you will find most people do not care about your sexual preference until you start trying to cram it down their throats.

You keep on coming back to this hostile notion that most gay people are screaming queens who shove their sexuality down peoples throats. I can assure you the opposite is the case, especially in the military, and you are displaying your ignorance.

reply to post by lostinau


"Through education and gay friendly policies any organisations culture can change from the top down, until any kind of homophobia becomes unnacceptable and those who attempt to incite hate are dealt with swiftly. It's really not rocket science. "



Again, why do we need education and gay friendly policies? Let's see you say hate and unacceptable, and then mention dealing with them swiftly................seems more like indocrination through fear to me. I don't have to like homosexuals, and yet according to you I should, or I should be dealt with. Hmmmm, so much for comapssion and understanding....oh, I forgot, it only applies when it comes to heterosexuals. Epic fail!

reply to post by lostinau

Gay guys in the military are obviously smart enough not to do that and in all likelyhood have no interest in the other guys they spend all of their time with; it may even gross them out to check out a straight guys they work with, and funnily enough there may even be more chance of a straight guy checking them out. Strange but true.

Where do you come up with this BS? Yeah, As a straight guy if I worked with a bunch of fit and attractive women I would find it gross checking them out it. You are so full of crap! I worked with a hot redhead woman Marine for 2 months while temporarily assigned to headquarters battalion, I was checking her out every chance I got!

What you say is strange, yes. But not true.

Through education and gay friendly policies any organisations culture can change from the top down, until any kind of homophobia becomes unnacceptable and those who attempt to incite hate are dealt with swiftly. It's really not rocket science.

Well, you are not a rocket scientist and know nothing of the culture within a Marine infantry unit. It is not the military's duty to be some PC testing ground. Leave them alone and let them accomplish their mission. You may win the political battle, but it will do nothing more than degrade morale in our fighting forces which is already strained from extensive campaigns.

Another famous army where gays where openly accepted: The Romans

Most powerful force in the world at that time, their empire collapsed from within because of corruption, apathy and debauchery.

Sounds like the route the U.S. is going

I'm sure you'll be first in line for cake when we are burning.

It's good to see so many people in the military seemingly more concerned with gay people being able to keep their jobs than fighting all sorts of questionable wars.

reply to post by AP-Chris

What is your source on that?

"Nicholas Groth, a clinical psychologist and author of Men Who Rape: The Psychology of the Offender, says all sexual assault is an act of aggression, regardless of the gender or age of the victim or the assailant. Neither sexual desire nor sexual deprivation is the primary motivating force behind sexual assault. It is not about sexual gratification, but rather a sexual aggressor using somebody else as a means of expressing their own power and control.

The choice of a victim seemed to be more a matter of accessibility than of sexual orientation, gender or age."

www.ncvc.org...

I'm STILL waiting for a credible source from you to back up your claims that most gay men are predatory rapists.

Giving gays a pass and blaming it (once again) on the evil heterosexual male I wish people like you would stop being so naive about the dark part of gay culture.

When have I ever said the hetrosexual male was evil? I'm not being naive at all. You are claiming these things based on your own individual experience to make a stance on an issue that is being debated. That's fine, I can do that too. I known quite a few men who have served in the army or air force over the year, of both sexuality. Both have said it was a non issue, no rapes. You will have to take my word on that, or maybe not.
Your problem is you are fitting every single person of either sexuality into a box and judging them on what you believe they are like.

You say there is a dark side to the gay culture, of course there are some people that are pretty messed up that happen to be gay, but you can say the same about straight men.
That's like saying, "well, you know what? I know that there are rapists and murderers in London, therefore we should treat every Londoner like that." That would be daft.

It was far from isolated. You don't hear about it in the media much because it is bad for recruiting, but it very much exists.

I don't think that is true, if it were then that would be an ideal stance to be used by the people who are objecting to it. They would be able to provide real hard evidence and not just hear say.

You quoted nearly my entire post but skipped over the part were a passed out Marine was raped while I was on duty.

I'll have to take your word on that account.
Like I said, I feel bad for any person who has been raped. The person who done it was a rapist.

I'm sorry that you feel that most people are treading such a fine line between being normal then having a few drinks and turning to rape. Most people aren't like that, apart from people who have the mindest of a rapist.

Again, rapists don't do it for sexual pleasure but do it out of power, control or humiliation of their victim. Even if you got rid of all the gay service men, the rape will still continue.

Originally posted by adifferentbreed
reply to post by lostinau

 

"Through education and gay friendly policies any organisations culture can change from the top down, until any kind of homophobia becomes unnacceptable and those who attempt to incite hate are dealt with swiftly. It's really not rocket science. "



Again, why do we need education and gay friendly policies? Let's see you say hate and unacceptable, and then mention dealing with them swiftly................seems more like indocrination through fear to me. I don't have to like homosexuals, and yet according to you I should, or I should be dealt with. Hmmmm, so much for comapssion and understanding....oh, I forgot, it only applies when it comes to heterosexuals. Epic fail!

No, it's not acceptable to assert your hatred of people based on ethnicity, gender, religion or sexuality. Your hatred of entire sections of the community is a proven pathological illness, likely conditioned in you by your family from a very young age. The up side is that even the most ignorant bigoted people can learn that the target of their hatred are human beings and not monsters based on ignorant stereotypes. Previously bigoted people often quickly drop their hatred when they learn reality and can easily become friends with people they previously wanted to kill. This happens all the time.

Originally posted by AP-Chris
reply to post by lostinau

 

Gay guys in the military are obviously smart enough not to do that and in all likelyhood have no interest in the other guys they spend all of their time with; it may even gross them out to check out a straight guys they work with, and funnily enough there may even be more chance of a straight guy checking them out. Strange but true.

Where do you come up with this BS? Yeah, As a straight guy if I worked with a bunch of fit and attractive women I would find it gross checking them out it. You are so full of crap! I worked with a hot redhead woman Marine for 2 months while temporarily assigned to headquarters battalion, I was checking her out every chance I got!

.

If you're unable to work with attractive women without continually checking them out, then you have a serious problem and hopefully are not a sexual predator. Continually checking out that redhead you worked with sounds like sexual harassment to me, however I think you were just trying to assert your masculinity in this thread.

I'm friends with gay guys in the US and Aussie military, army, navy and special forces, and know that there are serious issues of racism, homophobia, sexual assault and sexual harassment within the military which some elements of the armed forces refuse to address, understand or take seriously, to the detriment of everyone who serves.

I can't be bothered answering the rest of your comments as I've addressed most of these issues already in this thread.

reply to post by lostinau


Dude, you are the one saying hatred...if that furthers your agenda, good for you. I didn't say I hated them......but thanks for helping prove my point.

Originally posted by fraterormus
Yet after women have openly served, it was discovered that such wasn't the case (although granted rape in the military is a *MAJOR* problem now, affecting 25% of all enlisted females).

So the solution to this problem would be to have an all gay military to serve with the women. At the beginning of your statement, you said "after women openly served." It would be hard to hide the fact a female is a female in the first place, especially after a physical.

The rapists should be shot regardless of their military status, but like you said, 25% of enlisted females are raped is a MAJOR problem. So? How do we fix this? By adding openly gay personnel to the military? Let's fix the females being raped problem before we start adding to conflicting interests.