Does today's failed terror plot change your mind regarding 9/11?

I have read that Bush has no reason to pull another scam on the public. Well i think this sums it up. The republican party is starting to be viewed as a joke and democrats are getting into a position that would possible place them into the white house. Well bush and Blair cant have that. So hear you go.

NYTimes

Just another show to get people scared and to vote for republicans. Is there anything these bastard wont do for a vote.


Edit to fix link

[edit on 11-8-2006 by mrwupy]

now the buzzword is "terroist"
in the 90's it was "hacker"
in the 80's it was "communist"

The United States Department of State defines terrorism as "Premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents."
en.wikipedia.org...

Guess what, our founding fathers were terrorists!
Anyone rememeber the story of the boston tea party?
How about the slaughter of the American Indians?
Cortez and his quest for gold?
Those guys that beat that kid to death a few years back because he was gay?
Virtually every single person who commits armed robbery?
That kid who stole your bike by shoving you off of it
You when you got it back from him and gave him a black eye in the process
Your cat when he bit you because you forgot to feed him
Your mom when she beat you because you called your sister a B* (rhyms with witch)

Looks like everyone is a terroist!
Better go cry to the government and ask them to build bigger secret prisons to detain everyone in!
Rememeber, it's the only way to be SAFE! Gotta catch all the terrorists!
If you go turn yourself in now they might go lenient on you and not give you the death penalty.

ok, the majority of this post is a bit far stretched, but it is completely possibly with the "loose" deffinition of the term terrorist
we really have to be careful what laws are passed reguarding "terrorists" as they can rapidly be applied to anyone as i just pointed out

What gets me is this:

These "Terrorists" are smart enough to pull off 9/11. They are smart enough to make everyday objects into WMD's and they are smart enough to fool the most elaborate intel communities in the world. But they are not smart enough to blow up every school, mall, hospital, gas station and sporting event.

If there WAS a real WOT this would be happening. But it doesnt; even with our obscenely open borders and ability to buy these materials at any drug store or home depot.

Some one get the boat.. The BS river is overflowing!

Terrorists did 911....with our govts help(at the least) and this latest Boogeyman story only reaffirms this for me. Gotta love the timing.. two days ago the MSM finally starts giving the 911 CT's an earnest look and voice(even if it was double edged) and BAM! here comes a new tale of victory for the govt....Presto ratings will go up for the leaders in Washington.

Meanwhile, the noose gets tighter around the neck of the US Constitution.

And either way the people of the "free" nations are the losers today.

Originally posted by leapofdreams
I have read that Bush has no reason to pull another scam on the public. Well i think this sums it up. The republican party is starting to be viewed as a joke and democrats are getting into a position that would possible place them into the white house. Well bush and Blair cant have that. So hear you go.



Just another show to get people scared and to vote for republicans. Is there anything these bastard wont do for a vote.

hmm, you never see his kids nor hear his wife talk
it seems he is strongly against women's rights in general
just an observation

[edit on 11-8-2006 by mrwupy]

Here's a transcript of Bush's speech yesterday in Green Bay...

Bush Speech

This country is safer than it was prior to 9/11. We've taken a lot of measures to protect the American people. But obviously, we're still not completely safe, because there are people that still plot and people who want to harm us for what we believe in. It is a mistake to believe there is no threat to the United States of America. And that is why we have given our officials the tools they need to protect our people.

Again, I appreciate the close cooperation between our government and the government of the United Kingdom. The American people need to know we live in a dangerous world, but our government will do everything we can to protect our people from those dangers.

I'll agree Bush Co is using these events to push his authoritarian agenda, but does that mean his administration was involved in, or created, these events?

The police are holding actual suspects this time. These guys aren't dead like in 9/11. If they confess to plotting the bombings would that prove to you that it was actual terrorists, not the governement, behind this plot after all? If it was discovered they work for Al Qaeda would that prove that Al Qaeda is actually trying to kill us and therefore could very well have attacked us on 9/11 a well?

Originally posted by mecheng
I'll agree Bush Co is using these events to push his authoritarian agenda, but does that mean his administration was involved in, or created, these events?

The police are holding actual suspects this time. These guys aren't dead like in 9/11. If they confess to plotting the bombings would that prove to you that it was actual terrorists, not the governement, behind this plot after all? If it was discovered they work for Al Qaeda would that prove that Al Qaeda is actually trying to kill us and therefore could very well have attacked us on 9/11 a well?

of course that is a good possibility.. but why can both not exist at the same time.
Theres an AL quaida and a govt willing to use and manipulate it for their own control. That to me is the most likely scenario.. why? Plausible deniability.

Whenever a politrickster opens their mouth there is always truth mingled with the lies... they are the masters of manipulation and deception.

My grandfather once told me.... " There are NO coincidences in politricks" A line that, thankfully, I will never forget as it is made apparent everyday in the policies and decisions of our most traitorous govt.

The govt copuld easily dispel 911 CT'ers IF they released all the photographic evidence; If they wouldnt have removed all the evidence at the WTC; if they would reklease more than a pathetic 1 frame per second camera footage of the plane hitting the pentagon(correct me if I am wrong but isnt the pentagon supposed to be one of the most hi tech security places on the planet?) which should have been captured by over one hundred angles on DIGITAL camers.

Originally posted by mecheng
I'll agree Bush Co is using these events to push his authoritarian agenda, but does that mean his administration was involved in, or created, these events?

The police are holding actual suspects this time. These guys aren't dead like in 9/11. If they confess to plotting the bombings would that prove to you that it was actual terrorists, not the governement, behind this plot after all? If it was discovered they work for Al Qaeda would that prove that Al Qaeda is actually trying to kill us and therefore could very well have attacked us on 9/11 a well?

Mecheng

You've asked a few questions and a few of us have answered, not let me ask you this - why would you need to believe the government's spiel on this? It is obviously not a 'wake up one morning decide they've betrayed us' kind of thing. This has been happening for a few years now and the accumulated data just doesn't add up for some of us. Yesterday was just another part of that.

It seems to me (and I may be wrong here) that you are practically begging for some truth to make you believe otherwise. But I think that it is a careful study of what is being said and not said and reading between the lines. Too much of the political and media propaganda doesn't add up. I said and someone else did seperately that if you really wanted to kill people you could do it in so many creative ways. The bodies aren't raining down on our streets. Why all these elaborate transport related schemes that seems to 'fail'? The longer and more involved the plot, the easier it is to uncover. And yet, do you see any proof of the common man's war on terror? Or is it always the big black unknown? The boogey man of the 21st century? Start asking yourself that first and then everything else will fall into place.

I respect your open mindedness however. You question and you discuss and I'm sure eventually, whatever you decide... you will find what you need to make your choices.

The United States Department of State defines terrorism as "Premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents."
en.wikipedia.org...

Ok, then...

Guess what, our founding fathers were terrorists!

What noncombatant targets did they target? Boxes of tea?

Anyone rememeber the story of the boston tea party?

Something more about this than dumping tea into the harbor? Its been a long while since American history class, hehe.....

How about the slaughter of the American Indians?

Good point, and I'd agree that the definition applies. However, none of those folks are around (the ones who did the slaughtering), and I will not be accountable for the actions of my ancestors.

Cortez and his quest for gold?

See above.

Those guys that beat that kid to death a few years back because he was gay?

Where was the political motivation in that? I suppose one could add that on to this, but sometimes hate is hate, and violence is violence. They weren't looking to change a political idea, they were acting on hate, so not terrorism, though certainly not civil either.

Virtually every single person who commits armed robbery?

Again, no political motivation.

That kid who stole your bike by shoving you off of it

See above, no politics involved...

You when you got it back from him and gave him a black eye in the process
Your cat when he bit you because you forgot to feed him
Your mom when she beat you because you called your sister a B* (rhyms with witch)

Etc., etc., no political motivation.

It is the political angle which separates violence from terrorism

Gets it. People who seem to exclude one because of the other don't. There is no reason to think that AlQaida isn't real just because the Old Money is manipulating the WOT to fit their agenda, what better whipping boys could a cabal ask for?

The result of oppression is revolution, 100% of the time. In today's reality the "people" can no longer whittle a plow share into a sword and have half a chance of succeeding.

Today the technological advantage of the military powers is so skewed in their favor, guerrilla tactics are the only means by which "the people" can make an impression.

All that being said, when a group rises to the top, i.e. AlQaida, they truly hand the "bad guys" a perpetual "ace in the hole". An ace that can be brought out for use at virtually anytime the need to instill fear for the increase in authority rises.

The President's speech quoted above by MechEng is almost textbook Fear Mongering when taken out of context.

In the context of yesterday's news it's sound and prudent isn't it? There's the genius of the plan. AlQaida is real IMHO and they are pissed off, deadly and willing to do whatever it takes, the rest of my opinion is, the Old Money is very happy about that.

Springer...

[edit on 8-11-2006 by Springer]

Originally posted by nikelbee
You've asked a few questions and a few of us have answered

Yes, thanks for the reply. I was going to respond directly to you and wondernut before but got distracted. You both have made excellent points, many of which I've thought about as well and I tend to think you're right. I'm not trying to give them ideas here, but if they really wanted to kill us, why not hit a major venue or airport? Good point.

Just throwing this out for more discussion, but perhaps Al Qaeda's MO is to use airplanes in their plots. Maybe that's what they feel they are 'good' at and cause the most 'terror'.

why would you need to believe the government's spiel on this?

I should explain myself. I, like most ATSers, don't believe the government's spiel on 9/11. I think the war in Iraq was based on lies as well. However, I don't want to just "go with the flow". Just like I'm critical of the government spiel, I'm critical of ATSers (of which I'm proud to be part of BTW) who come out the very next day and say the government made this plot all up as well without so much as waiting for more evidence to come out contrary to the offical version. So I want to hear more ATSers' (like yourself) reasoning to get different points of view which will in turn help me form my opinion.

My first reaction to yesterday's events were the same as my reaction on 9/11... We need to get Al Qaeda NOW! But after time went on and I learned more about the holes in the 9/11 official story my opinion changed. And with regard to yesterday it's slowly changing again.

It seems to me (and I may be wrong here) that you are practically begging for some truth to make you believe otherwise.

Yeah, I'd like some truth for once. It'd be a nice change of pace. Question is... Who can you believe anymore?

Is it always the big black unknown? The boogey man of the 21st century? Start asking yourself that first and then everything else will fall into place.

I am asking myself that... as well as others. Thanks for your opinion.

I respect your open mindedness however. You question and you discuss and I'm sure eventually, whatever you decide... you will find what you need to make your choices.

Thanks. Sometimes I wonder though...

Thank you Springer,

Its nice to know that I am not the only crazy here...lol

But seriously.. I love the term "Old Money". Most of the time people get so caught up in the who, what, when and where... that they forget the most important .. the why. Who Gains as the result of the actions. We must not forget that it matters little whether the WTC was brought down by explosions or the planes.. it matters little that a plane did or did not hit the pentagon... The Govts of the US and the UK have more than shown their complicity in thier willingness to abolish the civil rights of its respective citizens. Either way our leaderships are traitors to our nations whether wittingly or not.

They tell us to live as if nothing has changed.. yet they have changed everything...Look at the Padilla case... no longer does an American citizen have the right to representation. Most people think "yeah, well, if they are not doing anything wrong than they have nothing to worry about".. this could not be farther from the truth.... this is how it starts... use one case to set precident which is what the practice of law is all about.. after it is established it can be done again ... and again... and again. The govt makes small challenges to the Constitution and when there are no reprocussions(sp?) they can push alittle harder the next time.. Until finally(after it is too late) there is no Constitution left..Thanks to the PATRIOT ACT the Constitution is now null and void.. In the name of the WOT and for National Security.

God this whole thing makes me sick to my stomach... What has become of our great nation.. that we have surrendered our rights to fear? And we are the brave nation?

I would rather be blown to bits and have our Constitution be left intact then to live for a millenia the way it is now.

What very few people seem to understand is that(given everything IS on the up and up) we are in a war of Ideology.. and being as such.. the moment we compromise that Ideology, even in the slightest bit, we have already lost the war.. before a single shot gets fired.

Those that will kill for fear of dying are the real cowards.. and those that would sacrifice our nations most important Ideals are just as bad. That is my opinion and Im stickin with it.

Well, I like a good conspiracy as much as the next guy. But it's not a good idea to gloss over facts or oversimplify the situation.

Originally posted by nikelbee
So, what do we have instead of random hateful attacks? Carefully planned executions that 'somehow' get found out at the last minute by our wonderful intelligence groups. And how they get found out too is something to note. They all went to the same terrorist camp? They all had their picture taken together? They accidently left important relevant documents in a backpack? They went rafting together? Come on...

Just curious - what sources did you use to reach that conclusion? Do you know how the plot was discovered? And when it was discovered? And how close to a "dry run" it was?

I know - at least from what I've heard, read, and watched- the answers to most of these questions. And knowing what I have heard, read, and watched, I would not classify the revelation of this plot as something so simple and convenient.

And I know I'll catch flack for believing anything. But I try to weigh all my sources of info, and give them credence based upon several factors. If someone here comes up with a credible, well-thought-out idea, they may get as much credibility as Janes.

Did you not see Heathrow on the new yesterday? How perfect would it be for one person carrying the gatorade/baby milk/contact lens solution bomb to take advantage of a moment of panic, if still trapped in an airport.

One thing these terrorists are is disciplined. If the main plan is blown, they don't make an arbitrary decision not to waste the trip to the airport and target the terminal instead of the flight.

Originally posted by wondernut
why would terrorists blow up a plane?
they wouldn't they would blow up the terminal where the plane takes off or where it lands
without terminals the planes are useless

Too much security at the airport. And the only way to effectively disable an airport is to disable the runways. The terminals are too large and widespread and secured to make an effective statement. The horror of a flight blowing apart over the ocean is much worse than a land incident where security and medical help are only a few minutes away. And that is what is aimed for - the horror factor more than the number of lives.

why not just shoot down the planes?
the "terrorists" suposedly have rpg's and such
:
there are just so many other ways that make far more sense (and are much simpler) than blowing up a plane by mixing liquid chemicals and detonating it with a cellphone
:
for god sake, these people probably are not McGiver or Tom Cruse!

Once again, airport security would allow you to get maybe one plane with an rpg before the area was blanketed with police.

As for the technical capabilities of these people, have you seen some of their resume's? Very impressive technically, so I would not underestimate them.

As I said, I like a good conspiracy as much as the next guy. But I am playing devil's advocate because I believe that it is too easy to say "Why didn't they do such and such instead?" Fault me for it if you will; that's just the way my brain is trained to work.

I do enjoy reading all the different points of view, tho.

I don't know becky. Seems to me it's a lot easier to get a bomb into an airport than on an airplane. Nobody checks my stuff as I'm walking into an airport. If the result is to simply kill the most people, and maybe it's not, I think there are far easier and more effective targets than airplanes.

So let me get this straight...

When something good happens, busting a terror plot, its a set up

When something bad happens, a terror act, its a set up, and its bushes fault that it happened

If there is an attack it has to be the gov no chance that there are whacked out retards out their that want to kill us. The USS Cole propaganda, the african embassy bombings propaganda, anything that doesn't fit with ones views is lies and propaganda....
Umm ok...

And oh yes ramped up security at an airport to make sure nothing slips through is an attempt to curb my rights.... lmao ok... I'll tell you what you start showing me the massive round ups of US citizens who have done nothing wrong. Show me people walking down the street minding their business and being thrown into an unmarked van and then maybe I'll start listening to some of you who claim everything is a conspiricy... If nothing can be accepted as REAL then whats the point...

Thats not to say, as someone else mentioned, that the gov isn't using these real fanatics to shape the world to their vision, but since when is that anything new? Mankind has been doing that since the begining of time. I'd much rather our fanatics win rather then their fanatics. Our fanatics want you to work and to tax you things that would be done anyway. Their fanatics want you to live by their super strict code of religion and if you don't they kill you.... Hmmm seeing as that it is one or the other...

And yes the gov and the powers that be already have us under control even conspiricy theorists, anti bush people, ect. go to work and pay taxes. So guess what they already have the control over you they want. The only thing they gain by trying to turn the country in a police state is resentment against the machine. And they don't need that. They don't need to nor do I think they want to control every little aspect of your life. Its unrealistic and unecconomical, the powers have learned through history the individuality is essential for progress. If it wasn't they'd have us speaking russian of german...

There won't be any change for a while. Voting democrat will do nothing as both republican and democrats are just two faces to one party and no matter who you vote for you vote for them... No one seems to care enough to vote for a third party if anything thats the biggest conspiricy, a small group of people keeping the US electorate in their pocket while no one seems to know any better.

Watch if democrats get in power they will say were forced to go to war with so and so and expand our war with so and so because of the position we were left in by the outgoing admin, meanwhile thats been the plan the whole time, except now you have more support for the war cause the "peace/people's party" can be trusted and we must need these actions... Watch... No one said a thing when clinton bombed the albanians to save the muslims...

The police are holding actual suspects this time. These guys aren't dead like in 9/11. If they confess to plotting the bombings would that prove to you that it was actual terrorists, not the governement, behind this plot after all? If it was discovered they work for Al Qaeda would that prove that Al Qaeda is actually trying to kill us and therefore could very well have attacked us on 9/11 a well?

While I don't believe the US is behind this, the argument could be made that the US created Al Qaeda (back during the conflict between Afghanistan and the former Soviet Union), and therefore could easily pull puppet strings and make it do what they wanted.

Indeed, we did create them. However, the focus then was to get the Russians out of Afghanistan. Once that was done, they found new goals, and ceased being an instrument of US policy...so my personal opinion is that the argument of Al Qaeda being an arm of this policy now, is that such an idea is false.

I will agree that regardless of anything else, the Bush administration is using terrorism to expand federal powers and invade privacy and restrict rights of citizens. I'm just thankful for that two-term limit, but scared to think of Jeb on the ballot in 2008. I like Jeb (our governor) somewhat, but the dynasty has got to end if we're ever to regain our world position.

Originally posted by Gazrok
I'm just thankful for that two-term limit

Our forefathers sure knew what the hell they were doing back then, huh?

The 2 term limit was imposed after ww2 i believe. Not part of the original document.

Does it really make a difference though? Other then potentially limiting the damage a real man of people could do. Damage to the shadow agenda that is.

I'm not a big conspiracy guy but I know there is more then meets the eye. I bet if gore or kerry won we'd be in the same predicament. If this is a big conspiricy then be sure they weren't leaving bush getting elected the key to success.

If its not then we would be dealing witht he same problem anyway, maybe putting off for the next administration, but sooner or later.

I... meant... our forefathers... from... world war II. Yeah.. that's it.

You're right. I'm an idiot *slaps head... multiple times*
Thanks.

American Madman

I couldn't agree with you more. I don't recall ever hearing of random people being searched (outside of airports), taken away by vans, etc etc. We don't have the KGB running around, doing covert things.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely feel that things need to change, especially when concerning our foreign policy. but, that is a different thread all together.