Does today's failed terror plot change your mind regarding 9/11?

Originally posted by df1
If the american people do not start buying these lies real soon the US government will be left with no choice except to blow up some americans to market these terrorist lie.

Very good!

edit: double post, sorry.

[edit on 14-8-2006 by mecheng]

Originally posted by American Madman
Oh stop. Saddam was thinking murder these people so my will can not be questioned by my own people.

He had better ways to do that than blowing people up in busy streets as is evident by his rather long ( American backed ) rule.

A vast majority of the Iraqis being murdered are being murdered by the "freedom fighters" terrorists.

Simply not true unless you consider murder by 500 pound bomb ( American aircraft ) different than murder by 500 pound truck bomb ( Iraqi). I know the view that American killing is all 'accidental' and ' with good intent' sells well in American but assuming that the rest of the world buys into it is just plain silly.

I bet the people of europe are very upset their entire continent was blast to rubble, and would rather live in Nazi Europe.

At least when the Germans win they normally do so without laying waste to EVERYTHING in sight which seems to be the American way. Check the comments made by the leaders of those countries liberated by the allies and realise just how enthusiastic they were about it....

Do you see that happening in Iraq? Nope. Do civilians take casualties from US bombing I'm sure they do at times. The world is far from perfect. But at least we aren't deliberatly targerting them like the "freedom fighters"....

The US targets cities with cluster munitions and heavy explosives and that IS deliberate since they do not want to risk American lives to bring any more 'democracy' than required to Iraq. America kills more Iraqi's, more deliberately, than the 'freedom fighters' can ever hope to manage.

Out of 150,000 troops a handfull are suspects in murder and rape trials I think a grand total of 2 or 3.

Which means the system is so corrupt that a entire occupation army gets away with mass murder with only three suspects being considered. Did they kill 30 000 Iraqi's each?

Of course no one cares if the US soldiers get their fair trail,

It's about as fair as killing a 100 000 mostly defenseless Iraqi's...

no chance they were set up by an enemy who's only ally is the media which is quick to blame american troops for anything.

And which media would that be? The American media consists almost entirely of right wing fascist wanna bee's so when they print something about American atrocity it's not because it's a isolated event but because it's too widespread for them to hide without losing whatever little credibility they have left.

They are guilty automatically, but if your a terrorist trying to kill americans God Forbid they don't get what someone considers miranda while they are shooting at our guys.

If Americans soldiers were guilty automatically at least hundreds would be behind bars for crimes against humanity. Since they are not your argument is just a sad appeal to special standards for American killers.

Stellar

Originally posted by df1

Originally posted by undecided2

I am tired of hearing people defend these fascists who want to kill me for no reason!

Im tired of my rights being eroded because a bunch of "chicken littles" think the sky is falling.

[edit on 10-8-2006 by df1]

, God I luv members like-minded in thoughts. Good one df1

Originally posted by kindred


I think David Icke describes fear most eloquently when talking about the new movie V for Vendetta.

... V for Vendetta the movie is not just a metaphor for a UK dictatorship, it is representative of the methods and ambitions of those who control governments across the world. And they all use fear, not just as their ‘ultimate tool', but the first, second and last.

Awesome movie and it sure did remind me of the Bush fear tactic that our lovely gov't (NOT) has been laying out to the citizens of the US ,UK, and others,lol. People should really stop allowing (Bush/Cheney/Co and good ole Blair) our Gov'ts to push that fear factor into the citizens minds and hearts......... for as soon as they lose the power of fear over the citizens they've lost thier game plan of control.

Stop playing there stupid games and stop buying into the fear.

EXACTLY !!!

Well Yo Blair is off on another one of his many holidays at some exotic location while the country and the rest of the planet is falling apart, but whats new. Hopefully us Brits will get lucky and he'll get eaten by a shark

(

Did I just say that....oops) I can just see the news. Blair attacked and eaten by a great white. MI5 has today confirmed the shark which was hunted down and captured has ties to Al-Queda

Look to this day for yesterday is but a dream
And tomorrow is only a vision
But today well lived
Makes every yesterday a dream of happiness
And every tomorrow a vision of hope!!!!

I'm dreaming of a world without Blair and Bush. I recommend everyone else to do the same...........

Originally posted by wondernut

security is always beaten by those that wish to beat it badly enough
not even the all seeing nsa can catch everthing
you clearly place too much faith in them

[edit on 13-8-2006 by wondernut]

Specially when we're stuck with a shnook like GW Bush for Pres., that's trying to cut $6M in screening technology..................

www.msnbc.msn.com...

Who needs to try and beat the security when the idiot in the oval office wants to strip away some of the money for security and protection ,.....hmmmmmmmmmm

Oh stellarx your so tired as well. Over 100,000 iraqis killed by americans oh please do tell where you get your numbers from.

The media is all right wing... Keep dreaming The media is divided. Thats why anti bush stuff is all over the media. Thats why republicans get slammed in the media for any mistep while the democrats get a free pass on everything.. But thats ok you keep telling yourself that the media is entirely far far right, it just shows how far far
left and out of touch with any sort of reality you are. With exception Fox the media is left. Thats why your ilk are so hostile towards fox cause untill fox the left had a monopoly on cable news...

ANd bush 1 wanted saddam gone but the UN wouldn't let him. Good thing bush 2 learned from pa's mistake.

Take a look at iraqi cities they aren't lying in ruin.... Nope except falluja.

My my my I sense a common theme among people here which is to be as dramatic as possible and make things up as they go along. Sad.

Yeah the germans did't ruin the cities in europe expect for in england and they didn't kill millions of people. Again I wonder if those leaders you said complained about amreica after ww2 would rather speak german or russian. I doubt it.

ANd no there isn't a special exception for americans... The difference however is that we don't deliberately target civilians and in time of war sht happens whether you like it or accept it or not. The difference between a 500 pound bomb and a 500 pound truck bomb is that the truck bomb is targeting markets and shrines... The 500 pound american bomb is targeting people driving those trucks...

news.yahoo.com...

If the american military wasn't trying to limit civilian casualties there would be no insurgency. The insurgents would all be dead along with a good amount of civilians. But that hasn't happened...

Throughout the 90's we tried it the UN/Euro way and it failed misserably, sanctions only hurt the people not the elite... Problems got worse while waiting around. The leaders of europe got rich though cheating the sanctions with saddam....

[edit on 15-8-2006 by American Madman]

[edit on 15-8-2006 by American Madman]

[edit on 15-8-2006 by American Madman]

Originally posted by American Madman
Oh stellarx your so tired as well. Over 100,000 iraqis killed by americans oh please do tell where you get your numbers from.

The Lancet....

The media is all right wing... Keep dreaming The media is divided.

About as divided as the science community on whether there is intelligent life on planet earth. Since we can't ( in spite) burn those who disagree....

Thats why anti bush stuff is all over the media.

Even rabid right wing news outlets sometimes fail to hide the obscenity that is the little Bush. It's not their fault and they really are doing their best to hide the fact...

Thats why republicans get slammed in the media for any mistep while the democrats get a free pass on everything..

A very popular myth that falls apart on closer inspect. It's like shaking dust from a doormat; simply if you actually pick the thing up...

But thats ok you keep telling yourself that the media is entirely far far right, it just shows how far far left and out of touch with any sort of reality you are.

The reason truth sometimes gets trough even the massive right wing bias is simply because you can only hide so much reality. Actual truthful news coverage ( and everyone has to do that now and again to stay credible) makes Bush look BAD and it's simply impossible for any human being ( even if his a new editor) to hide the fact on a 24/7/365 basis from a public that still has functioning brains.

With exception Fox the media is left.

Fox is so far right that it makes the rest of the right look distinctly left; it's a good scam when your dealing with a completely indoctrinated public.

Thats why your ilk are so hostile towards fox cause untill fox the left had a monopoly on cable news...

My ilk? The only thing the 'left' ( the less right, right ) had a monopoly on was the concerted negative attention of the right wing screaming that the less right right wingers were somehow 'liberal'. It's much like Hitler calling Stalin a crazed facist...

ANd bush 1 wanted saddam gone but the UN wouldn't let him. Good thing bush 2 learned from pa's mistake.

Actually Bush one did not want to invade Iraq ( they still needed him as 'unstable' element for continued American presence in ME) but promptly lost the election. Younger Bush decided that to be a war president you actually had to have a war and that winning it too fast kinda ruined the whole 'war president' scam. Why do you think American can't seem to take control of Iraq?

Take a look at iraqi cities they aren't lying in ruin.... Nope except falluja.

That 100 000 odd people were all living in tents somewhere in the desert , yes.

My my my I sense a common theme among people here which is to be as dramatic as possible and make things up as they go along. Sad.

Actually truth is far stranger than fiction and my imagination isn't even activated currently. Everything i say can ( and have been ) proven beyond anything but rabid right wing doubt. You can lead a right winger to a blood bath but he might remark 'that it was no worse than a frat party'.

Yeah the germans did't ruin the cities in europe expect for in england and they didn't kill millions of people.

Oh their ruined plenty of cities of their own accord but never came close to the level of destruction inflicted by the 'liberators'; some things never change? I am not trying to excuse the crimes of the 'bad' guys but just trying to point out the hypocrisy of the 'good' guys. If you do not different how different are you?

Again I wonder if those leaders you said complained about amreica after ww2 would rather speak german or russian. I doubt it.

European leaders ( not to even mention the royalty which were still very active back then) are largely a bunch of self serving fascists anyways so they really do not care what language they speak as long as they get to keep their station and power enough to oppress the 'lower classes'.

ANd no there isn't a special exception for Americans... The difference however is that we don't deliberately target civilians and in time of war sht happens whether you like it or accept it or not.

Yes there is special exception for Americans and there always have been. Americans frequently target civilians as they bomb people in cities which ( strangely i guess ) are largely inhabited by 'civilians' unless being a 'civilian' ( special rights) is only possible when your American?

The difference between a 500 pound bomb and a 500 pound truck bomb is that the truck bomb is targeting markets and shrines... The 500 pound American bomb is targeting people driving those trucks...

news.yahoo.com...

Something you want to believe but without much foundation in reality. How many of those bombs are actually being set off by terrorist and how many by CIA/British agents trying to cause a civil war in Iraq?

If the American military wasn't trying to limit civilian casualties there would be no insurgency.

Actually America could prevent the insurgency and dramatically lower the death tolls on all sides. Since the aim is to keep the war going they will terrorise civilians and keep turning them into the terrorist American so desperately needs as enemies to fuel their imperial strategy.

The insurgents would all be dead along with a good amount of civilians. But that hasn't happened...

The insurgency could have been prevented from the start had the original commander ( of the US army) been allowed to take the 400 000 American troops he requested to ' patrol every street' and kill insurgents long before they could learn to survive. He in fact got fired for suggesting as much which exposes the aim of the American administration rather efficiently. If you want to fight and destroy America's true enemies you have no place in the American armed forces; they will simply fire you or send you to get slaughtered in Iraq or some other hell hole to fuel their 'perpetual war' engine.

Throughout the 90's we tried it the UN/Euro way and it failed misserably, sanctions only hurt the people not the elite...

That was the intent...

Problems got worse while waiting around. The leaders of europe got rich though cheating the sanctions with saddam....

American corporations also made a killing ( in all regards) so no point in trying to shift the blame. Either America runs the world ( i do not think it even comes close) and takes responsibility for the mess it's in or it accepts that it does not even come close and stops de-facto responsibility and all the hate that goes along with that. In my opinion is just another 'fall guy' in a long line spanning times immemorial

Stellar

Alright! Looks like we're merged!

Why do you think American can't seem to take control of Iraq?

We don't have control? The streets of Iraq are safer than the streets of New York.

That aside - let's put this in perspective to eliminate your statement's deliberately manipulative and misleading tone.

You have a country with open borders. You can hop on a cammel and waltz right in from just about any part of the border. Kind of like the border between the U.S. and Canada - border checks at the roads - but not a whole lot that can be done about the thousands of miles of wilderness that comprise the border. So - that translates into a LOT of terrorists can come in from other countries. Or people who are itching to shoot an RPG at a piece of U.S. equipment.

Then you have the fact that there is no FBI, CIA or other organization capable of intercepting terrorist cell activity. So - it's not really any floundering on our part - it's that it's a monumental task.

Something you want to believe but without much foundation in reality. How many of those bombs are actually being set off by terrorist and how many by CIA/British agents trying to cause a civil war in Iraq?

Ya ever think that maybe this whole '9/11 is a conspiracy' deal is a conspiracy to set off a civil war in America? I mean, think about it. My statement has just as much merit as yours - even though you will deny it until the day you are killed in said civil war.

The insurgency could have been prevented from the start had the original commander ( of the US army) been allowed to take the 400 000 American troops he requested to ' patrol every street' and kill insurgents long before they could learn to survive. He in fact got fired for suggesting as much which exposes the aim of the American administration rather efficiently. If you want to fight and destroy America's true enemies you have no place in the American armed forces; they will simply fire you or send you to get slaughtered in Iraq or some other hell hole to fuel their 'perpetual war' engine.

I love this. More troops = better way of fighting. I also love how you support a general who asked for about twice the number of soldiers as we have in our entire military ranks. I guess we could instate the draft..... but then that would be an infringement on our rights and a plot to do something evil.

That's the best laugh I've had all day.

just a quote a friend of mine just sent me and I felt could be well placed in this thread :

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials .source

and again we come across the same old history , it's a circle isn't it , the burning of the Reichstag and the series of events that followed, different political "colour" but similar goals.

Do not misread my post , I have no proof whatsoever to confirm any of the theories posted on this forum , but haven't we seen it all before ? It seems we haven't learned much, we haven't learned reading our history books (that might not always be the most accurate but still accurate enough considering the time frame) and comparing past events to current ones, after all isn't it the same old story of power , how to obtain it and foremost how to keep it .
America was scared, is scared, has been scared for quite a while and has been kept that way , only the "enemy" evolved. Now it's time for Europe , a bit more difficult though as exposed to terror acts since decades. The defunct R.A.F (Rote Armee Fraktion) in Germany, the still active F.L.N.C. (Front National de Liberation de la Corse) and all of it's branches , the E.T.A. (Euskadi Ta Askatasuna) , the "Brigate Rosse" and even the not so famous F.N.L.B ( Front National de Liberation de la Bretagne) and many more. But there's a new flavour of terrorism now , not lead by desire of independence , autonomy ,recognition of ethnicity or culture (like for the FLNB in Brittany) or regime change, no now it's about belief and religion and how for some extremists (please read again :SOME EXTREMISTS) other beliefs should be wiped of the face of this planet.


and now to relieve the tension a bit :
I wonder when the first pagan terror acts will start appearing , imagine a bunch of Ásatrúar in berserker rage, high on shrooms, armed with battleaxes in a cinema or a shopping mall or even a group of naked Celts with broad swords , after all why not ?

I'm wondering if anyone would like to discuss the thread topic. In particular, how you feel regarding an overall conspiracy plot.

Possible Scenarios:
1) There is no government conspiracy...
Al Qaeda is responsible for both 9/11 and the "Airplane Bomb Plot" (ABP) and working alone as a true terrorist group out to kill British and American citizens. End of story.

2) Al Qaeda is connected with the government in some fashion...
The official stories of 9/11 and ABP may be correct but the government conspiracy lies in the fact that they are pulling the strings of Al Qaeda in some way such as having prior knowledge of what would take place on 9/11 and allowing Al Qaeda to destroy the WTC to further and authoritarian agenda.

3) The government is directly responsible for 9/11 (such as the military remotely flying planes into WTC and the pentagon)...
The APB was ‘made up’ to further an authoritarian agenda. Al Qaeda is merely a scapegoat.

4) Other possibilities.

I guess I'd like to know... Which camp you fall into and why. What are your reasons?
Perhaps we can piece together an overall conspiracy or disprove that there is one.

This is NOT a new story or a new idea.

It's also so comforting to know what you can find on the web.

NICE GOING USPTO

patft.uspto.gov.../69602 67&RS=PN/6960267

Multi-component liquid explosive composition and method

Abstract
A multi-component liquid explosive composition and method of mixing thereof. The steps include (a) providing a powder consisting of aluminum preferably having an average particle size of 5 to 50 microns and a surface area of 0.5 to 2 square meters per cubic centimeter containing 0.1 to 5% stearic acid by weight; (b) providing a liquid consisting of nitromethane; and (c) mixing said aluminum powder with the nitromethane to form a liquid explosive formulation detonable at a wide range of temperatures and diameters with a standard commercial number 8 blasting cap.

What is claimed is:

1. A field mixable, binary, liquid explosive consisting of: (a) a non-explosive solid component including aluminum powder containing stearic acid; and (b) a non-cap sensitive liquid component including nitromethane; whereby said solid and liquid components can be combined and mixed together in the field to produce a cap sensitive explosive.

2. The explosive of claim 1 in which said aluminum powder has an average particle size of 5 to 50 microns and a surface area of 0.5 to 2 square meters per cubic centimeter, and contains 0.1 to 5% stearic acid by weight.

3. The explosive of claim 1 in which said aluminum powder and said nitromethane are mixed in the ratio of about 1 to 1.2 ounces of said aluminum powder to about 6 ounces of said nitromethane, by weight.

4. A method of making a field mixable, binary liquid explosive consisting of the steps of: (a) providing a non-explosive solid component including a quantity of aluminum powder containing stearic acid; (b) providing a non-cap sensitive liquid component including a quantity of nitromethane; and (c) combining and mixing said solid component with said liquid component in the field to produce a cap sensitive explosive.

5. The method of claim 4 in which said aluminum powder has an average particle size of 5 to 50 microns and a surface area of 0.5 to 2 square meters per cubic centimeter, and contains 0.1 to 5% stearic acid by weight.

6. The method of claim 4 in which said aluminum powder and said nitromethane are mixed in the ratio of about 1 to 1.2 ounces of said aluminum powder to about 6 ounces of said nitromethane, by weight.

[edit on 16-8-2006 by FallenFromTheTree]

Yeah ok stellar.

Democrats aren't held to the same PC standard as republicans. You can keep telling yourself they are...

I said that fox was right wing, you're just too deluded to accept that they are the only right wing news networks the others are left leaning. Let me guess the times is on bush's side. Yeah sure the bad news sneaks by without the editors and their right wing propagadists checking first that must be the only reason there is anti bush republican stuff non stop. If a republican pisses in the woods in a no pissing zone the democrats and media will have a field day. I seem to remember one right wing speaker who's medical records were stollen and then reported by the media. HOw about the forged documents durning the 2004 election that the news reported and then was busted for... Oh yeah they must have been bush plants...

You so full of holes that its funny and yet sad.

100,000 people displaced in a country of 25,000,000 to 30,000,000 hardly qualifies as a nation thats been bombed to the stone age indiscriminately as you would have us believe. The cities of Iraq are still standing, with exception of falluja but I had mentioned that city already.

You keep on imagining the worst and spewing it forth as if it were fact.

And those 40,000 troops were saddams guys.... People talk about infiltration but want these guys hired into the army.... sure.... These people were going to fight, if all they want is a job as long as they weren't high up in saddams army they can join up.

It seems to me those 40,000 wanted peace and prosperity they could have it. All they have to do is Stop blowing up fellow iraqis and acting as a speed bump to progress. Thats about all they are achieving.

And I'm not shifting blame just pointing out the folly of other efforts such as sanctions.

[edit on 16-8-2006 by American Madman]

[edit on 16-8-2006 by American Madman]

Originally posted by mecheng
2) Al Qaeda is connected with the government in some fashion...
The official stories of 9/11 and ABP may be correct but the government conspiracy lies in the fact that they are pulling the strings of Al Qaeda in some way such as having prior knowledge of what would take place on 9/11 and allowing Al Qaeda to destroy the WTC to further and authoritarian agenda.

The CIA must have had a very good idea what was going to happen as they were having a drill with planes crashing into buildings on that very morning. That's the reason NORAD was stood down and why the USAF managed to intercept unidentified prop planes within short spans of time on many other occasions. The 'official government' were caught unawares imo as there is no way that Bushe's handler's would not have used the opportunity to make him look good instead of having him read a book while the toweres burned. Whoever was in fact responsible it was not OBL or the mythecal 'Al Qaeda. Since the FBI was involved in the 1993 WTC bombing incident there is evidence that these things are certainly not beyond their means or needs...

Short summary but anyways...

Stellar

Originally posted by Aim64C
We don't have control? The streets of Iraq are safer than the streets of New York.

No more and no less than a complete fabrication. The last time America firebombed one of it's own cities was in the 30's i think....

That aside - let's put this in perspective to eliminate your statement's deliberately manipulative and misleading tone.

Good luck on maintaining your twisted reality!

You have a country with open borders.

Could have been closed had America sent in the troops demanded by the then commander of the American army.

You can hop on a cammel and waltz right in from just about any part of the border.

Because America has chosen not to deploy enough robotic observation aircraft to patrol the border while their aircraff is away bombing Iraqi cities.

Kind of like the border between the U.S. and Canada - border checks at the roads - but not a whole lot that can be done about the thousands of miles of wilderness that comprise the border.

Build a wall and patrol it. It wont even be very expensive. 20 000 guys patrolling on foot will cost you about half a billion dollars a year if you pay each 2000 USD per month. You can pave the patrol road and have security camera's every few hundred meters with a 20 feet wall and still it wont cost you any more than a tiny TINY fraction of the 400 odd billion the USA now spends on 'defense' ( offense). You can do the same on the mexican border ( where you can add tanks and helicopters to really put the fear of god in them ) and then build thousand patrol boats to do the same with 'boat people'. America can be 'defended' on the cheap if that was the real aim of the so called ' defenders' of America.

So - that translates into a LOT of terrorists can come in from other countries. Or people who are itching to shoot an RPG at a piece of U.S. equipment.

By choice as America needs terrorist to be able to keep fighting a war on terror. If you run out of terrorist you wont have a war and your president will not longer be able to claim that he is a 'war' president.

Then you have the fact that there is no FBI, CIA or other organization capable of intercepting terrorist cell activity.

HAHAHAHAHEHEHEHAHAHAH.

So - it's not really any floundering on our part - it's that it's a monumental task.

The Germans managed to keep a card index system of each of the their citizens in the 1930's with updates and tags to reflect who would need to be arrested in what kind of social upheaval/ crisis. To pretend that America can not manage the same today is either proving a complete ignorance of modern technology or just being damn spiteful. To spy on one's own citizens, when that is your intent, is very easy even without a 'patriot' act.

Ya ever think that maybe this whole '9/11 is a conspiracy' deal is a conspiracy to set off a civil war in America?

Yeah i have and that seems to be the intent of some organizations.

I mean, think about it. My statement has just as much merit as yours - even though you will deny it until the day you are killed in said civil war.

I am not American so that aint a problem unless American is going to wage that civil war with nuclear warheads.

I love this. More troops = better way of fighting.

Not to win the war but to maitain the peace; there is a huge difference.

I also love how you support a general who asked for about twice the number of soldiers as we have in our entire military ranks.

Nonsense.

I guess we could instate the draft..... but then that would be an infringement on our rights and a plot to do something evil.

As if the current American governments gives a damn about civil rights.

That's the best laugh I've had all day.

Sounds like a very slow day.

Stellar

Originally posted by mecheng
It's looking more and more to me like this was a large scale plot by Al Qaeda. They are rounding up suspects left and right now and I also read there was an investigation into this plot going on since July of last year.

Well little Bush stopped (with a presidential order) further investigation into a plot that was to lead to the attack on major American landmarks.... Untill these 'suspects' turn out to be guilty of anything but having the 'wrong' sounding names i think we should be quite skeptical.

It's just not adding up for me. On the one hand (if our government was involved in this plot) why would Al Qaeda want to be connected in any way with our government?

Why not take advantage of the opportunity for good press if you stated aim has always been to ' fight imperialism'? It's free and it's not like they are likely to try catch you for something they know you didn't do....

I know about how Al Qaeda was started and financed by the US back in the day. And the connections between the Bushs and Bin Ladens. I've heard the theories that Al Qaeda is still somehow connected with the US. Why would Al Qaeda allow that?

Well 'if' ( i have not seen enough to be convinced) Al Qaeda is a organization in anything but name why would they not accept funds from all donors? Would it matter to you if your main sponsor was the CIA or other intelligence group that needed manufactured enemies as excuse for it's existence?

Why would they want their own people to be rounded up by the US and be put into prison just so the US elite can further their authoritarian goals? What's in it for Al Qaeda?

When one conquers a country you will always readily find those among it's elite who are willing to work for you if you allow them power and status; this situation would be no different.

On the other hand (Al Qaeda acting alone), why isn't Al Qaeda going hard and heavy after more populated places rather than trying to bomb a bunch of planes?

They lack the organization/funds/training to do anything they are not expressly allowed to do? A 'real' terrorist organization would not be stopped by the current US intelligence agency or 'border guard' and Americans would die regularly....

To be nice? If jihad and the elimination of Americans is what they really want, we have proven there are far 'better', more effective, cheaper, and less risky ways to kill us than bombing a bunch of planes.

Quite logical and the reason we should always be very suspicious when our government comes up with these less than likely plots which mostly serves to impede or freedom of movement. 'Real terrorist' would know that they would get perfectly good press with car bombs in NY streets instead of taking pointless chances with trying to blow up planes. Whoever is behind these rumours and 'plots' is clearly more capable than your average cave dwelling terrorist...

How do they benefit from just scaring us? If you say 'so Bush can forward his authoritarian agenda', I then go back to then what's in it for Al Qaeda and why would they allow themselves to be thrown in prison?

Well that's the thing! The guys who benefits most by scaring Americans ( without actually doing anything) is the American government so lets all keep our view firmly on them with only occasional glances to the rear. The government does not need to creep up on you anyways so you have a better chance protecting yourself by watching them intently than any amount of 'terrorist spotting' you may want to indulge in.

Perhaps only Bush and OBL know of the overall conspiracy and OBL allowed his cronies to be caught yesterday?

Who says he knows them or are remotely connected?

I don't know if I'm just being dense. I hear the arguments and tend to agree them, but it's just not adding up on either side for me right now. To me this one is looking like it's Al Qaeda working alone.

Al Qaeda has never been proven to have this type of capacity ( they had nothing to do with 9-11 as far as i can tell) so why assume it for them because some government officials tell us so ?

This may prove out differently down the road, but if true, what does that say about the 9/11 conspiracy theories?

It suggests that we need not bother trying to protect ourselves against 'Arab terror' when our own governments seem perfectly able and interested in doing so.

Sorry for rambling here. I'm just trying to connect the dots. I'd like to hear your theories and how these terrorist plots might be connected into a 'grand conspiracy'.

The grand conspiracy has been going for many thousands of years and it always gives itself away by trying to centralize power and control. Knowing that is all you really need to know to do your part in saving humanity from the real threat that faces us.

Stellar

[edit on 17-8-2006 by StellarX]

Originally posted by American Madman
Yeah ok stellar.
Democrats aren't held to the same PC standard as republicans. You can keep telling yourself they are...

They are all held to very loose morale standards and media illusions aside there is no significant difference between the so called ' republican's and democrats beside the labels assigned them by popular media. Calling the same thing by different names does not change it's nature.

I said that fox was right wing, you're just too deluded to accept that they are the only right wing news networks the others are left leaning.

Fox is a radical far right wing front media group ( as the owner makes quite clear) and there is no major news grouping in the USA than can still be considered 'left'. The 'left' in American is only 'left' by virtue of being slightly less right wing than 'foaming at the mouth' Fox.

Let me guess the times is on bush's side. Yeah sure the bad news sneaks by without the editors and their right wing propagadists checking first that must be the only reason there is anti bush republican stuff non stop.

Not everyone agrees with Bush ( even some republicans thinks things are moving along too fast) and not everyone is in the globalist's pockets anyways. That being said much of the opposition is created rather artificially just to help stimulate the kind of the debate they want. Why do you think anyone will be completely able to control the freedom's that remains in America anyways?

If a republican pisses in the woods in a no pissing zone the democrats and media will have a field day. I seem to remember one right wing speaker who's medical records were stollen and then reported by the media.

Your perception is rather twisted and i do not imagine i am going to able to change that any time soon. Can it be proven that these records were not stolen by republicans so as to frame somone in their own party they disliked with the added benefit of being able to blame the so called 'liberal' media? How can a media be so controlled by so few right wingers and then be able to convince you that they are liberal? Why are you so easily fooled by their lies?

HOw about the forged documents durning the 2004 election that the news reported and then was busted for... Oh yeah they must have been bush plants...

Not sure what your talking about in this case but the Bush camp are no strangers to using faked material to either frame their former allies or their enemies. Valerie Plame anyone?

You so full of holes that its funny and yet sad.

I make mistakes , being human and all, but they are nothing compared to the scale of your delusion.

100,000 people displaced in a country of 25,000,000 to 30,000,000 hardly qualifies as a nation thats been bombed to the stone age indiscriminately as you would have us believe. The cities of Iraq are still standing, with exception of falluja but I had mentioned that city already.

100 000 dead ( now very many more) and many more displaced. They are still using air strikes to bomb 'suspects' and that is having the kinds of effects on city life that one can only wonder at. Why does anyone required air strikes in a country they supposedly control? Why still the electricy issues?

You keep on imagining the worst and spewing it forth as if it were fact.

Sadly i do not have to employ any imagination considering the scale of the atrocity that is the illegal occupation of Iraq.

And those 40,000 troops were saddams guys.... People talk about infiltration but want these guys hired into the army.... sure.... These people were going to fight, if all they want is a job as long as they weren't high up in saddams army they can join up.

Well Iraqi's former republican guard is fighting on bravely and they will continue to do so while the American government refuses to allow the US armed forces to deal them crushing blows.

It seems to me those 40,000 wanted peace and prosperity they could have it. All they have to do is Stop blowing up fellow iraqis and acting as a speed bump to progress. Thats about all they are achieving.

The massive majority of Iraqi's are being killed by American explosives and there is no specific evidence indicating that the car and roadside bombs targetting iraqi civilians are in fact being placed by the Iraqi resistance. It's a assumption based on the hope that the American government will not stoop as low as to blow up it's own soldiers just to perpetuate the crisis. We know for a fact that the US government extended both the Korean war, Vietnam war and first gulf war by many many years for political reasons and there is no reason to suspect that this one is any different.

And I'm not shifting blame just pointing out the folly of other efforts such as sanctions

The sanctions harmed everyone but SH so they were a folly if one assumes they were made to end his power. Since it is obvious that they were aimed at the people of Iraq ( thus strengthening SH) instead of SH one can only marvel at the brutal effectiveness which allowed SH a additional 12 years of rule.

Stellar

does it change my mind? no it reaffirms my worst suspicions, read this article and you'll understand why.


these chemicals are not over-the counter stuff and just handling them requires utmost caution, and appropriate gear and containersm reactions generate lots of heat - how are these superterrorists going to cool their stuff? it's not just impractical, if you tried to pull the stunt off as advertised, you'd end up maimed or dead, probably starting a fire in the process, which is bad enough, but nowhere near as flashy as bombs, is it?

any terrorist worth his salt would of course test the setup, then QUICKLY forget about it. if all you want is a fire, you don't need such a complicated setup, do you?

Thanks for the link. You may be on to something there. It sounds very difficult to make. Here's a link to another article on wikipedia...
en.wikibooks.org...

The pressure produced in just the dissociation of TATP molecules is about 80% greater than pressures seen in the detonation of the same mass of w:TNT.

However, according to this site...
www.globalsecurity.org...

TATP can be easily prepared in a basement lab using commercially available starting materials obtained from, e.g., hardware stores, pharmacies, and stores selling cosmetics. TATP is a fairly easy explosive to make, as far as explosives manufacturing goes.

And it looks like the shoe bomber tried to use TATP in it's finished form...

Later analysis by the FBI laboratory in Washington determined that there were two functional improvised explosive devices hidden in Reid's shoes made of the explosive material triacetone triperoxide, known as "TATP," and other components. Richard Reid's shoe had 8 or 10 ounces of triacetone triperoxide and PETN.

Question is whether a 'terrorist' would be able to mix the stuff on-board or not. From what it sounds like, you have to be very careful to control the temperature and concentrations of the chemicals to attain the desired result without starting a fire first. However, I don't know what would happen if you just mixed them all suddenly at room temperature. Would that by itself cause an explosion large enough to take down a plane? Perhaps someone who knows more about chemical explosives could add some light to this discussion.

This from Alex Jones on the plausibility of liquid explosives (TATP) being used to take down a plane...

www.prisonplanet.com...

"Both Peroxide and Acetone are clear liquids, but acetone (laquer thinner) is easily identifiable by smell and its high rate of evaporation. Experts indicate it is very unstable and highly unlikely to be a stand-alone explosive to take down an airliner. The quantities would have to be large enough to be easily noticed. Thus, even though this is a theoretical threat, banning all cosmetics and lotions is stupid and banning all liquids is unnecessary. Only clear liquids need checking. There is cheap test equipment for TATP, and simple ways for TSA employees to quickly check for acetone and peroxide."

This is great. Leave it to AJ to point out the obvious..

In addition, photographs of passengers being ordered to pour liquids into one single container completely belies the claim that the alleged terrorists planned to mix the liquids to create the deadly explosives. If mixing liquids was a key component of the bomb making process then why are airport security ordering people to mix liquids?