Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Sure, I never claimed otherwise.

originally posted by: Grenade
a reply to: TzarChasm

Sure, I never claimed otherwise.

Cool, then it's settled. God is imagination.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Understanding the nature of reality is beyond human capability. Everything is imagination and perception, even your science.

originally posted by: Grenade
a reply to: TzarChasm

Understanding the nature of reality is beyond human capability. Everything is imagination and perception, even your science.

Science is a discipline of information, getting the most dependable facts and assembling them to describe the most perfect truth of what is. Applying it can mean the diligent practice of studying natural phenomena and mastering the physics of the natural world to build a less hostile and capricious world. The problem is we can't engineer a better breed of homo sapiens because we are still a primitive species that hasn't yet cracked the code of genetic engineering. Science is not magic.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Your disdain for your own species is quite disturbing.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

Science is a discipline of information, getting the most dependable facts and assembling them to describe the most perfect truth of what is. Applying it can mean the diligent practice of studying natural phenomena and mastering the physics of the natural world to build a less hostile and capricious world. The problem is we can't engineer a better breed of homo sapiens because we are still a primitive species that hasn't yet cracked the code of genetic engineering. Science is not magic.

Science will not save your soul. It is a false idol. Useful, yes. But ultimately scientific knowledge changes drastically every 5 years or so ( a stat from my Biochem teacher when I was at the University), and more than 50% of peer-reviewed research is likely just flat out wrong or misperceived (a stat from another professor at Penn).

You want science to make the human race better? It may be your nihilism that is making your brain not function well. I have an abundance of peace and happiness in my life which stems from my ever-increasing understanding of my self and my place in this beautiful creation. Atheism is a dreadful weight on anyone's soul.....

Science shouldn't be glorified instead of God.

Of course we have medicine and computers, electricity and cars.

a reply to: Out6of9Balance

The argument is that God is responsible for consciousness, without that fundamental trait your science and technology never arises. The question of creation encompasses all energy and knowledge in the universe. We don’t create science, we discover the secrets already contained in our reality.

a reply to: Grenade

I reason alike. You're a brother (sis)

a reply to: TzarChasm

(From Cooperton) Never called us a tumor. I said the science you idolize as your savior is never capable of resolving the metaphysical human dilemma. We as humans have the option to go in the way of worldly idolization, which causes confusion (Babylon means confusion). Or we have the option to seek out the reason for our existence no matter what the cost.

Nihilism is a cop out. It insists this is all meaningless, and is for that reason a very dangerous philosophy that strays people into the murky puddle of meaninglessness. You always participate in these Theological discussions, so I insist you take it from a pragmatic unbiased perspective
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(From Pachomius) Cf. google, top British model committed suicide:

Family confirms suicide of British model Stella ... - France 24
www.france24.com › France 24 › Live news
1 day ago — British model Stella Tennant, known for her androgynous, aristocratic style and who was the face of campaigns by top designers, killed herself ...

Model Stella Tennant committed suicide, family says: 'She felt ...
www.foxnews.com › entertainment › model-stella-tennant...
2 days ago — British supermodel Stella Tennant died by suicide, her family has said. ... Fox News Flash top entertainment headlines for January 6. Video ...

Family confirms suicide of British model Stella Tennant
ph.news.yahoo.com › family-confirms-suicide-british-...
1 day ago — British model Stella Tennant, known for her androgynous, aristocratic style and who was the face of campaigns by top designers, killed herself ...

[ . . . . ]

.

My latest thought is that God is all existence, so here is my latest concept of God:

God in concept is the whole totality of existence, and within God Who is the whole totality of existence, He creates man and the universe and everything transient and with a beginning, it is the nature of God to be permanent self-existent and possessed of utmost creativity.

From the part of man, of which I am one, we are transient entities, and the knowledge of our transiency, i.e. we have a beginning at birth and an end at death, we come to the knowledge of the existence of God Who is the whole totality of existence.

Wherefore, existence is composed of two systems: God and all things not God but created by God, all things not God are thus transient beings made by God.

So, I welcome comments from everyone.

.

a reply to: Pachomius

Well done

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: TzarChasm

Science is a discipline of information, getting the most dependable facts and assembling them to describe the most perfect truth of what is. Applying it can mean the diligent practice of studying natural phenomena and mastering the physics of the natural world to build a less hostile and capricious world. The problem is we can't engineer a better breed of homo sapiens because we are still a primitive species that hasn't yet cracked the code of genetic engineering. Science is not magic.

Science will not save your soul. It is a false idol. Useful, yes. But ultimately scientific knowledge changes drastically every 5 years or so ( a stat from my Biochem teacher when I was at the University), and more than 50% of peer-reviewed research is likely just flat out wrong or misperceived (a stat from another professor at Penn).

You want science to make the human race better? It may be your nihilism that is making your brain not function well. I have an abundance of peace and happiness in my life which stems from my ever-increasing understanding of my self and my place in this beautiful creation. Atheism is a dreadful weight on anyone's soul.....

Did you just call me mentally challenged? LOL

Explain to me why my soul needs to be saved. In fact, who on this forum feels like their soul might be in danger? Why do you need salvation so badly?

(I have no weight on my soul except for the typical social and political pressures that have nothing to do with spirituality)

originally posted by: Pachomius
See what you anyone can say against these thoughts from my honest intelligent productive thinking:

1. Existence is an isolated system, nothing can get in and nothing can get out.

2. Within this isolated system of existence there is at least one permanent self-existent entity, and several transient entities, for examples, humans - they are transient because they have a beginning at birth and an ending at death.

3. It is a fact and a truth that we humans exist.

4. It follows from num 3 that God exists, in concept as the permanent self-existent creator cause of man and the universe and everything transient and with a beginning.
.

Okay, dear everyone, work on your comments, and I will read them and reply to you.

.

1 You need to define "existence" better. "Everything that exists" isn't a reliable definition as there is also heaven, hell, and whatever dimensional sandtrap ghosts keep getting stuck in, for example. The assertion that god can function outside of the universe also suggests that it is not a closed system. If there is an "outside of spacetime" that is by definition outside of existence.

2 is untrue. There is no structure or lifeform that sustains forever.

3 is accurate.

4 is a presumption and non sequitur.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Pachomius
See what you anyone can say against these thoughts from my honest intelligent productive thinking:

1. Existence is an isolated system, nothing can get in and nothing can get out.

2. Within this isolated system of existence there is at least one permanent self-existent entity, and several transient entities, for examples, humans - they are transient because they have a beginning at birth and an ending at death.

3. It is a fact and a truth that we humans exist.

4. It follows from num 3 that God exists, in concept as the permanent self-existent creator cause of man and the universe and everything transient and with a beginning.
.

Okay, dear everyone, work on your comments, and I will read them and reply to you.

.

1 You need to define "existence" better. "Everything that exists" isn't a reliable definition as there is also heaven, hell, and whatever dimensional sandtrap ghosts keep getting stuck in, for example. The assertion that god can function outside of the universe also suggests that it is not a closed system. If there is an "outside of spacetime" that is by definition outside of existence.

2 is untrue. There is no structure or lifeform that sustains forever.

3 is accurate.

4 is a presumption and non sequitur.

4 please elaborate, I don't see why it is

a reply to: TzarChasm



posted on Jan, 10 2021 @ 07:36 AM by Tzar to Pachomius

Pach 1. Existence is an isolated system, nothing can get in and nothing can get out.
Tzar 1 You need to define "existence" better. "Everything that exists" isn't a reliable definition as there is also heaven, hell, and whatever dimensional sandtrap ghosts keep getting stuck in, for example. The assertion that god can function outside of the universe also suggests that it is not a closed system. If there is an "outside of spacetime" that is by definition outside of existence.

Pach 2.: Within this isolated system of existence there is at least one permanent self-existent entity, and several transient entities, for examples, humans - they are transient because they have a beginning at birth and an ending at death.
Tzar 2 is untrue. There is no structure or lifeform that sustains forever.

Pach 3. It is a fact and a truth that we humans exist.
Tzar 3 is accurate.

Pach 4. It follows from num 3 that God exists, in concept as the permanent self-existent creator cause of man and the universe and everything transient and with a beginning.
Tzar 4 is a presumption and non sequitur.

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Okay, dear Tzar,
what about we agree that existence is anything at all which we can talk about, even the word nothing as word of course, we can talk about it, but we cannot talk about nothing because that is not possible.

That is what I mean by existence is the isolated system, nothing can get in and nothing can get out.

Now, in the isolated system, there is at least one thing that is permanent and self-exisent, while everything else is transient and created by this one permanent self-existent entity, which I call God.

From our being transient entities, with a beginning at birth and an ending at death, it follows that God exists.

What do you say now, dear Tzar?

.

a reply to: Pachomius
The ocean is the permanent......the waves are the transient.
However the waves are still the ocean.

Nothing can be outside of existence but inexistent things.

Existence can't be an open system either.

a reply to: Out6of9Balance
Thought makes believe there is something other than what is appearing to happen.

Stories arise about things.

Alan Watts said:
Thinking is thinging.

originally posted by: Pachomius

Okay, dear Tzar,
what about we agree that existence is anything at all which we can talk about, even the word nothing as word of course, we can talk about it, but we cannot talk about nothing because that is not possible.

That is what I mean by existence is the isolated system, nothing can get in and nothing can get out.

Now, in the isolated system, there is at least one thing that is permanent and self-exisent, while everything else is transient and created by this one permanent self-existent entity, which I call God.

From our being transient entities, with a beginning at birth and an ending at death, it follows that God exists.

What do you say now, dear Tzar?

I say that if there is a permanent and self existent agency that created the universe and all life in it, then logically it follows that they are not part of the universe. You need a platform outside of the system to interface with it and still be independent of it. What is this "exterior" system and where did that come from? Or is it suggested that the most sophisticated & multidimensional agency in all of existence requires less formidable causality than the universe it was invented to engineer and parent? To put it another way, you explained very crudely that a watchmaker exists but not a word about where he went to school or how his parents met before he was born. Instead you expect us to be satisfied with your version of the watchmaker, who is ironically exempt from the rules of watchmaking because he's a wizard and completely bypassed the process of being born thanks to ineffable sorcery that defeats the purpose of the watchmaker analogy.

That's some disappointing logic.

From our being transient entities, with a beginning at birth and an ending at death, it follows that God exists.

No. No it does not. It follows that we are mortal creatures comprised of biological mechanism that degrade and fail over time as all material constructs do. However some combinations of organic compounds are more successful in consumption and propagation. It would be more accurate to say that life in general has survived in spite of overwhelming hostile conditions, which is why the modern ecosystem is the remaining 0.001% of all life that has ever existed on Earth. Deriving a higher power from that equation can only mean such an agency is incredibly violent toward life or at best, utterly apathetic. It's more reasonable to say that there is no such agency than to declare we are actively being picked off like a cruel kid torturing an ant farm one helpless insect at a time (and in some cases, entire colonies. See mass extinction events for more details) which is the only alternative that fits the data.