Does enlightenment require any specific action (or absence thereof)?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
20 years of meditation and this is its fruits?

Anything and everything changes the neural network of the brain, for better or worse.

To an insider, so embedded in his ways, yes, it feels that something beneficial is being accomplished, but by any other yardstick meditation appears quite fruitless beyond self-gratification. Many people have meditated, and I’m trying to think of one who has left behind anything more than a simple self-help guide to happiness, or techniques of relaxation and stress-relief, which are a dime a dozen in the book store. They have pills that can accomplish more in a shorter amount of time.

There's a vast world of difference between having events you experience change the brain in ways beyond your control and deliberately/meticulously resculpting the contours of your own mind however you like.

Meditation is literally the power to remake yourself in the image of anything you choose.

Your point seems be that for all that meditation the practitioners accomplish little of value unto the world at large. And unto that end you point out the supposed dearth of beneficial materials products they've left behind.

But what you're missing or ignoring is that the lives themselves of devoted meditators are the gifts they bestow upon this reality. Those who meditate regularly are generally kind, compassionate, empathetic, loving, trustworthy, and loyal.

They're the kind of people with whom I'll happily share a world.

Thus the fruits of that practice extend well beyond the provinces of self-gratification. Those who meditate regularly are typically happier more upbeat more self-actualized individuals. And they give back unto the planet with each kind word, each helpful deed, each demonstration of benevolence at large.

Meditation turns rude, conceited, arrogant, egocentric individuals into paragon examplars of virtue. It makes sinners into angels.

And those miraculous transformations it accomplishes with nothing more than a decade or two of eyelid staring.

Time well spent.

YMMV.

Just as the absence of happiness is unhappiness so is the absence of ignorance enlightenment. Ignorance makes enlightenment, enlightenment makes ignorance, if both were to be tossed aside as they should be, no enlightenment would be necessary.

Can you allow things to be as they are? Can you not make yourself an obstacle to the universes developement? Can you be still long enough to realize correct understanding? Reflect on your own understanding and understand your own reflecting, then truly will you liberate yourself from yourself. Then truly will you know that this enlightenment you seek is but merely a product of ignorance.

a reply to: EviLCHiMP

Good point you make
We can only be enlightened of that we are ignorant of

Enlightenment is not a fixed state
For if we are honest with our self, our minds are constantly faced with doubts
It is these doubts when investigated that build a stronger foundation of faith within us

One's faith is constantly challenged be it by science or other disciplines of truth seeking
We should always welcome our doubts as such and look deeper

Truly enlightened people never claim the title of "Enlightened"
It is by referral of others who recognise wisdom in them

a reply to: Trachel


Well no, not literally at all. Meditation is not a power, but a practice. It might be the practice of imagining yourself in the image of your choosing, but not the literal choosing of it. We can tell this by simply looking. I understand the need to romanticize such a practice—how else can you make something so boring seem so interesting—but beyond the tedious religious connotations and purple prose, there’s really not much to it.

If it turns individuals into “paragon exemplars” of virtue, it is because it is a less painful form of castration, like pretending you’re making stallion more docile. Of course two decades of closing one’s eyes, sitting, regulating breathing and such, would domesticate any animal—artificially of course—given that such a practice is little different than any form of hibernation. These transformations are not miraculous at all as they can be conditioned into any house pet.

Meditation is not a requirement for compassion, helpful deeds, or happiness, nor is it the only cure for conceit, arrogance or egocentrism. It is more a running and hiding from the world and from the self.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Trachel


Well no, not literally at all. Meditation is not a power, but a practice. It might be the practice of imagining yourself in the image of your choosing, but not the literal choosing of it. We can tell this by simply looking. I understand the need to romanticize such a practice—how else can you make something so boring seem so interesting—but beyond the tedious religious connotations and purple prose, there’s really not much to it.

If it turns individuals into “paragon exemplars” of virtue, it is because it is a less painful form of castration, like pretending you’re making stallion more docile. Of course two decades of closing one’s eyes, sitting, regulating breathing and such, would domesticate any animal—artificially of course—given that such a practice is little different than any form of hibernation. These transformations are not miraculous at all as they can be conditioned into any house pet.

Meditation is not a requirement for compassion, helpful deeds, or happiness, nor is it the only cure for conceit, arrogance or egocentrism. It is more a running and hiding from the world and from the self.

I mean, we'll never agree on this. I've practiced meditation for a decade and experienced the benefits.

You've armchair-quarterbacked it into the fields of perceived irrelevance based upon what you think it entails.

But for the sake of the audience (hopefully convincing at least one person to start meditating) I'll address some of these points:

-Visualization (involved in certain types of meditation) does manifest lasting neurological changes to the brain. So by imagining yourself embodying higher virtues during meditative practice, you literally are self-selecting those traits into being.

-There's a ton to meditation beyond religious connotations and "purple prose." Meditate long enough and you'll literally begin understanding how the brain stores, catalogs, and retrieves information. You'll grasp the interplay between mind and spirit. And you'll begin gleaning insights into the neural structures of others based upon seemingly insignificant acts. Those are just a few examples--there are countless more.

Meditation handbooks like the Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu are just pointing you towards the door. The wonders come when you step through it.

-Your example of castrating a horse is completely opposite the purpose/effects of meditation. Castration deviates biology from a natural state. Meditation returns the balance between brain and spirit back into its original form.

-No, meditation is not a requirement for performing helpful acts, et al. But those who meditate are more likely to embody those higher virtues.

-Already addressed the argument about "running and hiding from the world." That's the opposite intention of meditation practices, as I earlier explained.

Been fun--and you're entitled to your views--but for those in the know:

Meditate.

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein
Please don't put words into my mouth... I never said anything to the tune of what you said above.

Like i said, check your mirror.

You obviously twisted my words several times in a post here.

Your words mean nothing if your actions contradict them.

There are two kinds of people in the world: sayers and doers.

God told Howard Pittman during his NDE that not all the sayers would be in heaven, but all the doers would be.

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein
Who ever said being Christian is acting Christ like?

FYI, HE did:

If you love me, you will keep my commandments. ~ John 14:15

I consider to be the best argument against Christianity is not some silver bullet against the cosmological argument for God, any supposed contradiction or inaccuracy in the Bible, but rather the lives lived out by professing Christians.

Why is it that those who profess Christ don’t act like Him? Why do those calling themselves Christians prove out day after day Gandhi’s famous statement where he declared that He liked Christ but not Christians because they don’t mirror the one they claim to follow?

I have a feeling that a lot of Christians like me take too casual an approach with our responsibility towards possessing a sanctified life and forget that Scripture says, “if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth” (Ephesians 4:21–24, emphasis mine).

Notice whose job it is to lay aside the old nature and put on the new? Mine. This fact is repeated numerous times in the Bible (e.g. Eph 4:22; Eph. 4:25, 31; Col. 3:8, Heb. 12:1, James 1:21, 1 Pet. 2:1) and showcases the twin responsibilities of sanctification – God gives us the new nature works within us to bring it about yet we also “work out our salvation” (Phil 2:12).

Why Don't Christians Act Like Christ?

a reply to: Trachel

I mean, we'll never agree on this. I've practiced meditation for a decade and experienced the benefits.

You've armchair-quarterbacked it into the fields of perceived irrelevance based upon what you think it entails.

But for the sake of the audience (hopefully convincing at least one person to start meditating) I'll address some of these points:

-Visualization (involved in certain types of meditation) does manifest lasting neurological changes to the brain. So by imagining yourself embodying higher virtues during meditative practice, you literally are self-selecting those traits into being.

-There's a ton to meditation beyond religious connotations and "purple prose." Meditate long enough and you'll literally begin understanding how the brain stores, catalogs, and retrieves information. You'll grasp the interplay between mind and spirit. And you'll begin gleaning insights into the neural structures of others based upon seemingly insignificant acts. Those are just a few examples--there are countless more.

Meditation handbooks like the Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu are just pointing you towards the door. The wonders come when you step through it.

-Your example of castrating a horse is completely opposite the purpose/effects of meditation. Castration deviates biology from a natural state. Meditation returns the balance between brain and spirit back into its original form.

-No, meditation is not a requirement for performing helpful acts, et al. But those who meditate are more likely to embody those higher virtues.

-Already addressed the argument about "running and hiding from the world." That's the opposite intention of meditation practices, as I earlier explained.

Been fun--and you're entitled to your views--but for those in the know:

Meditate.

Admittedly as I age, I’ve gravitated towards more sedimentary pursuits, but I am of enough experience, and worldly travel and study to have plenty of knowledge from beyond the armchair, for instance to know that the “Tao Te Ching” and “Chaung Tau” are not meditation handbooks. I also know that to imagine embodying “higher virtues” pales in comparison to actually embodying them.

I never get tired of telling the spiritual of my own spiritual travels, which apparently had a different affect. I am a cosmopolitan. I've lived in many places the world over, and still do even in the light of my own domestication. I’ve come into contact with enough monks, siddhas and sadhus to see what their enlightenment and meditation amounts to—voluntary begging, piety and orthodoxy. I’ve flipped them coins, that is when they’re not making lucrative bank off of romantic westerners, such as the salesmen of transcendental meditation. Your holy men are charlatans. I’ve also heard from their very mouths horrific stories of sexual abuse in Tibetan and Chinese monasteries, beatings, bullying etc. where meditation is indeed a requirement. If you get a chance, read the zen priest Brian Victoria’s book “Zen at War”, which outlines the profound effect Zen Buddhism had on Japanese nationalism during the 2nd world war, or the fact that Himmler carried a copy of the Bhagavad-Gita with him, maybe pointing him to that door you value so highly. So much for higher virtues.

But you are entitled to your views—and for those who aren’t tricked by their own proclivities towards romance, seek truth. Been fun.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Admittedly as I age, I’ve gravitated towards more sedimentary pursuits, but I am of enough experience, and worldly travel and study to have plenty of knowledge from beyond the armchair, for instance to know that the “Tao Te Ching” and “Chaung Tau” are not meditation handbooks. I also know that to imagine embodying “higher virtues” pales in comparison to actually embodying them.

I never get tired of telling the spiritual of my own spiritual travels, which apparently had a different affect. I am a cosmopolitan. I've lived in many places the world over, and still do even in the light of my own domestication. I’ve come into contact with enough monks, siddhas and sadhus to see what their enlightenment and meditation amounts to—voluntary begging, piety and orthodoxy. I’ve flipped them coins, that is when they’re not making lucrative bank off of romantic westerners, such as the salesmen of transcendental meditation. Your holy men are charlatans. I’ve also heard from their very mouths horrific stories of sexual abuse in Tibetan and Chinese monasteries, beatings, bullying etc. where meditation is indeed a requirement. If you get a chance, read the zen priest Brian Victoria’s book “Zen at War”, which outlines the profound effect Zen Buddhism had on Japanese nationalism during the 2nd world war, or the fact that Himmler carried a copy of the Bhagavad-Gita with him, maybe pointing him to that door you value so highly. So much for higher virtues.

But you are entitled to your views—and for those who aren’t tricked by their own proclivities towards romance, seek truth. Been fun.

Must clear up a couple points, because you painted a few things weird:

-The TTC and CZ are indeed meditation handbooks if you understand the symbolic language in which ancient Taoists wrote their prose. Just because you read them doesn't mean you understand every layer of the onion.

-Most monks aren't my "holy men." I don't worship anyone because they wear orange robes or sleep on stone. And I don't particularly believe in monastic lifestyles--I know one can achieve transcendence outside the rigid dogma that occurs inside those particular walls.

-The external act of meditation might be a requirement in monasteries, but none except the practitioner can ensure he performs the internal practice correctly.

-Buddha predicted the degeneration of Buddhism in orthodox circles. Your tales of sexual abuse and misconduct don't surprise me--and those instances certainly don't vitiate the higher virtues that meditation develops if practiced correctly.

-Carrying a copy of the Bhagavad-Gita doesn't in any way mean the individual studies and practices its deeper meanings... but you knew that already.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I just wanted to say
I appreciate your bold and honest postings
Even if I might not quite fully agree with all of them I respect them/you for your integrity

originally posted by: Trachel
Enlightenment is a real neurological and spiritual state. Attaining it is possible. Tons of individuals accomplished it in a single lifetime.

Can you elaborate on this some?

Am curious about who you might be referring to.

EDIT: Just to add as a reference point...

A few people who I would consider to have reached true enlightenment would be:

The Lord Jesus Christ, Moses, Sadhu Sundar Singh, Sadhu Sundar Selvaraj, Nita Johnson, (the last two are still alive on the Earth)

I see enlightenment as a fraud to deceive mankind and lure people away from the truth.

I believe it's a counterfeit which means there must also be a genuine article.

Rajneesh admitted, while under the influence of nitrous oxide, that there is no such thing as enlightenment. I cannot confirm this event through other contacts, but I assume Rajneesh was simply stating what U.G. Krishnamurti has said all along; that the storybook fiction we accept of a perfect enlightenment, full of infallible wisdom, is a big lie.

A powerful and expansive state of cosmic consciousness does exist in humans who achieve it, but the way this condition is described by the religious establishment is an egocentric fiction, contrived by spiritual leaders to control the masses for their own personal gain.

Osho, Bhagwan Rajneesh, and the Lost Truth

originally posted by: Murgatroid
originally posted by: Trachel

Trachel: Enlightenment is a real neurological and spiritual state. Attaining it is possible. Tons of individuals accomplished it in a single lifetime.

Murgatroid: Can you elaborate on this some?
Am curious about who you might be referring to.

EDIT: Just to add as a reference point...

A few people who I would consider to have reached true enlightenment would be:

The Lord Jesus Christ, Moses, Sadhu Sundar Singh, Sadhu Sundar Selvaraj, Nita Johnson, (the last two are still alive on the Earth)

Yet in your next statement SAY:

Murgatroid: I see enlightenment as a fraud to deceive mankind and lure people away from the truth.

And then this:

Murgaroid: I believe it's a counterfeit which means there must also be a genuine article.

As we don't have Jesus's writings; have no idea what he individually was thinking about mans enlightenment EXCEPT this: according to those having written the new testaments regarding his beliefs he was telling his audience how to better understand its creator and their relationship to it. This was done by observing certain things (Quabala method references exist within his teachings); by your definition Jesus then becomes a deceiver. If you want to call the true enlightener out that would be Lucifer (then your argument regarding deception starts to make some sense). You are saying enlightenment is not for the common man; Osho and Jesus would say the opposite as IT IS NECESSARY for the growth of this system. WHAT IS YOUR IDEA of "the luring the masses away from truth" what is your truth?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

This is the second time I have wrote more than 3 paragraphs to your post and deleted it because I knew you would have no interest in reading it.

I know charlatans, I know illusions exist in drugs and the mind. You don't have to pretend as you are the disillusioned adult here. It is silly and the reason I deleted all of my personal thoughts.

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: Trachel
Enlightenment is a real neurological and spiritual state. Attaining it is possible. Tons of individuals accomplished it in a single lifetime.

Can you elaborate on this some?

Am curious about who you might be referring to.

Sure, I'll throw out a handful of names then elaborate a bit on my point.

Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Chang Po-Tuan, Liu I-Ming, Buddha, Ancestor Lu, Hui-neng, Chung-li Ch'uan--those are some of the sages whose work fills my bookshelves. Those are some of the individuals venerated in ancient eastern cultures for having attained enlightenment.

Elaborating on the point, enlightenment is a state of "no-mind" where the sensory perception of objects results in zero neurological impact.

Let me clarify with a contrasting example.

For a normal person, seeing a bed will trigger the neuron associated with that idea. The biokinetic energy striking that point in the mind will proceed naturally down the synaptic connection with the lowest Impedance from that point on.

So seeing a bed triggers the neuron for bed, then that activated the associative idea of (for example) the last time you slept in it. Then that process of associative firing proceeds ever onward.

In short, for ordinary individuals, encountering a sensory object stimulates the brain--which produces a cascading series of thoughts and memories based upon the neurological structure of the mind. One thought leads unto another, then another, then another... on and on random thoughts whirl without end.

In an enlightened mind, the synaptic structure of the brain is eroded through meditation. So seeing a bed doesn't trigger those associated memories--because by practicing the meditative process you let those associations fade from the mind.

Each thought leads to nothing more, and each thought dissolves smoothly away--leaving enlightened individual in a perpetual pristine state of mind.

Rehashing the point, when you or I or other "ordinary" people walk through reality, we get inundated with a constant deluge of random thoughts and impressions from those sensory objects stimulating the brain and its associations.

An enlightened individual would experience the same events without hearing any of that constant mental chatter. He'd subside in a state of perpetual peace and constant equanimity regardless what happened around him.

Thus the commands of the brain can't compel him.

Thus only the enlightened are truly free.

Hope that helps!

Ask away if you want more clarification on anything.

a reply to: Trachel

i love what you wrote..

namu amida butsu

enlightenment requires no action..

this small act of posting online is an example of egoistic desire to contribute, and help others and be recognized...

these are not enlightened impulses...

enlightenment requires no action,

action implies attachment

If realization is an action, then if your on the road to enlightment realization is needed. On the other hand that which is totally free requieres nothing at all.

Enlightenment is a recognition NOT an accomplishment. The action or action-less notions are easier to understand when looking at the ever changing nature of the clouds in the sky. If your sense of well being depended on the clouds holding their form in a certain way, then well being will rarely come and never stay. But the clouds are inherently changing all the time, and no form ever stays the same. This is their nature. Knowing this fact is not an action and most certainly not an accomplishment but a recognition. And with such recognition, you would never pin your well being on that which is always changing and passing. This is a liberation of sorts and the doorway to everlasting piece if you can recognize this analogy in terms of pining your happiness and well being on the ever changing nature of the human mind, thoughts, it's varying states and the coming and going of form in physical world.

So enlightenment does not require an act, nor a non-act. It has nothing to do with either.

a reply to: Profusion

any fool can claim any title that doesn't mean they understand what they're claiming

and they get away with it because the masses have no clue either

as for the bible verses used; if you have faith in any form of concept it is there because you trust that it is a possibility. the journey to enlightenment includes the thorough investigation of those concepts; so faith really, is a beginning point, albeit an important one. also on the road to enlightenment, one must practice compassion and selflessness; so in christian terms this is a good work that is fruit of the faith held in the concepts of that particular framework of reality.

as far as enlightenment requiring action? one master once said: "there are strictly speaking, no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity."

this is where we get into form and no form, action and no action, the subtler understandings of not-self

the awoken mind revealed, has no qualities of itself, no actions, it is spotless, clear, like a mirror

and with that clarity, that laser focused concentration on understanding our reality, we can setup the causes and conditions for our own happiness, and in turn the happiness of others

so, the answer is somewhere in the middle

a reply to: Trachel

the buddha was called the self awoken one

there was no mystical transference of attainment from the spirits

it is beyond all phenomenal states, including a neurological state or an exchange of chemistry in the body systems; these might be states attained in meditation, but they are not liberation

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

you deal in concepts and ideas built upon overlapping relative information, but not directly correlative, which is great when presenting an opinion leaning to one side, but not exactly meaningful in logical debate of the true object of discussion, here presented as enlightenment

dig deeper, there is nothing mystical about it, it is right here, and has been all along

with a mind so busy, one can never take a break to relax into oneself

but when is the right moment to not be too serious?

perhaps in the middle of that last satisfactorily loud laugh, y'know the one Im talking about, the one where you lost yourself for a moment in the pleasure and joy of that laugh

life is full of stress, full of suffering, full of lying, anger, pain; so much of it, what can we do?

blossom like beautiful flowers, contributing to the well being of each other through a clear and balanced view leading to wholesome actions

it is possible, don't let the shortcomings of others, the misunderstanding of others, the suffering of others become an additional deterrent to true understanding, you already have yourself getting in the way of yourself

the faithless die not wanting of anything, in peace

the ones gone all the way move beyond death into the deathless

stop drawing comparisons on the outside

the truth is hidden deeply on the inside, yet right here all along

engage the world with a fully accepting heart, with complete utter attention, fully engaged in actively listening to the totality of our reality as we can in our full capacity as humans

and when we engage, do so with the compassion and wisdom borne of clear and correct understanding of our own well being and that of others without limitation