Do women REALLY need Planned Parenthood?

a reply to: [post=19693861]kellyjay[/post

the good ole US of A, back in colonial times....

originally posted by: kellyjay
im pro-choice because i know i have no control over anothers autonomy, so if i was pro-life id be contradicting the truth

just because im pro-choice doent mean i have to like it

No, that's not Pro-Choice. You're Pro-Life but are also a sore loser so you fake being on the other team. Being Pro-Choice means you support that there is a Choice. You don't support it and don't like that others are making that choice.

Just because you can't stop people making their own choices doesn't mean that you support them doing it. You just can't stop them, but would if you could.

then maybe the government needs to put more funding towards CPS and fund parenting classes, and make incentives for foster carers etc

Yah, because conservatives are so big on helping them??? What world do you live in??? The first thing they cut are Social Services and Education.

I don't think you have a very good assessment of what your chosen political teammates are all about. You seem to be a little confused on where you stand on things as well. The people who want to cut PP funding are the same people who would also cut CPS, Parenting Classes and any other program that might help the people who use any of those services.

I honestly think you're just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. You just continue to have some excuse for everything or alter your argument as if you'll stumble upon some revelation that's been missed up until now. It may be time to simply agree to disagree.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: kellyjay


sorry, but, the foster care system isn't any better....

One of the most comprehensive surveys of abuse in foster care was conducted in conjunction with a Baltimore lawsuit. Trudy Festinger, head of the Department of Research at the New York University School of Social Work, determined that over 28 per cent of the children in state care had been abused while in the system. Reviewed cases depicted "a pattern of physical, sexual and emotional abuses" inflicted upon children in the custody of the Baltimore Department. Cases reviewed as the trial progressed revealed children who had suffered continuous sexual and physical abuse or neglect in foster homes known to be inadequate by the Department. Cases included that of sexual abuse of young girls by their foster fathers, and that of a young girl who contracted gonorrhea of the throat as a result of sexual abuse in an unlicenced foster home.

www.liftingtheveil.org...

I throw out ideas that can help children that are neglected, and instead of agreeing and saying, well yes that could work or its a step in the right direction you keep giving me these crappy reasons to just abort..

"oh well the foster system isnt that great its better to just abort, we should just abort cuz parents will just kill them later in life anyway, we should just abort because maybe in the future parents can take their kids to court for misbehaving and the judge will kill them"

its almost like you dont want an alternative to abortion....."kill them...kill them all"!!

its vile.....where the hell is your compassion?

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: kellyjay
im pro-choice because i know i have no control over anothers autonomy, so if i was pro-life id be contradicting the truth

just because im pro-choice doent mean i have to like it

No, that's not Pro-Choice. You're Pro-Life but are also a sore loser so you fake being on the other team. Being Pro-Choice means you support that there is a Choice. You don't support it and don't like that others are making that choice.

Just because you can't stop people making their own choices doesn't mean that you support them doing it. You just can't stop them, but would if you could.

then maybe the government needs to put more funding towards CPS and fund parenting classes, and make incentives for foster carers etc

Yah, because conservatives are so big on helping them??? What world do you live in??? The first thing they cut are Social Services and Education.

I don't think you have a very good assessment of what your chosen political teammates are all about. You seem to be a little confused on where you stand on things as well. The people who want to cut PP funding are the same people who would also cut CPS, Parenting Classes and any other program that might help the people who use any of those services.

I honestly think you're just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. You just continue to have some excuse for everything or alter your argument as if you'll stumble upon some revelation that's been missed up until now. It may be time to simply agree to disagree.

No, that's not Pro-Choice. You're Pro-Life but are also a sore loser so you fake being on the other team. Being Pro-Choice means you support that there is a Choice. You don't support it and don't like that others are making that choice.

are you seriously trying to tell me what i think? how very arrogant of you...you can try psychoanalyse me all day dr phil, but im in more of a position to know whats in my head.....you should send that armchair google psych degree back and get a refund

a reply to: kellyjay

well, ya see this is where the difference is....
I am not the mother of every child....and I chose the best path for me when I was carrying my kids.
I have more faith in other moms out there to do the same than I do that a gov't would act in the best interest of the kid, or the courts, of the dads, or you for that matter!!
and, once they have made their choice, I won't condemn them for their action, or try to make them feel guilty for it, but rather I would prefer to give them any support that they might need, regardless of their decision.

ya see, I don't want women to abort their babies, but I do seem to have more understanding than some on these boards as to why they might wish to.

and I am not sitting halfway around the world seemingly expecting another country to magically, overnight, make great changes to our transportation system, our healthcare system, our fostercare system....
I see things the way they are....

throughout our history, 10%-15% if that page I linked to is correct, of children born were murdered. sometimes in a somewhat uncontrollable fashion, other times with some kind of reasoning behind them....
taking the rebellious kids to the church elders...
killing the girls, because it's more efficient in reducing the population.
ect.

well, I am sorry, if it's a choice between outbursts of uncontrollable rage, or senseless wars, or concentraion camps, or weird insane reasoning that targets particular groups, or mothers, who generally do have the strongest attachment to the unborn and children....
I would rather leave it to the mothers to decide!!!

of course there is probably another alternative that might possibly work except for extreme cases, that would be to convince those wealthy people who are living in the lap of luxury by profiting off the proverty of the many to give up some of their riches to benefit the poor...
good luck on that one!

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: kellyjay

well, ya see this is where the difference is....
I am not the mother of every child....and I chose the best path for me when I was carrying my kids.
I have more faith in other moms out there to do the same than I do that a gov't would act in the best interest of the kid, or the courts, of the dads, or you for that matter!!
and, once they have made their choice, I won't condemn them for their action, or try to make them feel guilty for it, but rather I would prefer to give them any support that they might need, regardless of their decision.

ya see, I don't want women to abort their babies, but I do seem to have more understanding than some on these boards as to why they might wish to.

and I am not sitting halfway around the world seemingly expecting another country to magically, overnight, make great changes to our transportation system, our healthcare system, our fostercare system....
I see things the way they are....

throughout our history, 10%-15% if that page I linked to is correct, of children born were murdered by their parents. sometimes in a somewhat uncontrollable fashion, other times with some kind of reasoning behind them....
taking the rebellious kids to the church elders...
killing the girls, because it's more efficient in reducing the population.
ect.

well, I am sorry, if it's a choice between outbursts of uncontrollable rage, or senseless wars, or concentraion camps, or weird insane reasoning that targets particular groups, or mothers, who generally do have the strongest attachment to the unborn and children....
I would rather leave it to the mothers to decide!!!

of course there is probably another alternative that might possibly work except for extreme cases, that would be to convince those wealthy people who are living in the lap of luxury by profiting off the proverty of the many to give up some of their riches to benefit the poor...
good luck on that one!

presenting alternatives to abortion isnt condemning those who chose abortion, its mere presenting other options, i guess it would be easier if we were all like nostradamus and could see the future, that way if a mother sees herself commiting infantacide she can abort to spare the child the pain right?

i hardly doubt there are people out there who are giving birth for the sole intention of killing their child later down the line

but to suggest that killing a child in the womb will prevent killing a child later is a ridiculous argument, and one i wont stand behind.

infanticide is a tragedy and as a mother myself i couldnt imagine what kind of parent could do that, perhaps psych evaluations while pregnant could be a good thing, to get a rough idea if the mother could be a danger

im not against abortion, i just dont think its the ONLY option.....

a reply to: kellyjay

No, I'm not telling what you think. I'm telling you that just because you say you're Pro-Choice doesn't mean you are. Clearly, if you don't support the idea of that choice being available to someone then you aren't Pro-Choice are you???

I'm not psychoanalyzing you, I just don't believe you. I think you're being dishonest or that you just don't really know where you stand. I know you refer to the choice of an Abortion as "Killing Babies". I also know you have a strong dislike for Liberals and consider them to be Mentally damaged. I know you easily dismiss the fact that these videos are propaganda and still go along with the agenda they're pushing and are in support of defunding PP over them. I know you flopped on your argument from being "Tax Funded" to "PP making a profit" as the important issue.

But maybe I'm completely wrong about you, it's possible. I'm just going off this thread for the most part. But I'd be lying if I were to say that I believe everything you're saying here. I'm sorry if that offends you, but I don't and I'm not going to pretend like I do.

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: kellyjay

No, I'm not telling what you think. I'm telling you that just because you say you're Pro-Choice doesn't mean you are. Clearly, if you don't support the idea of that choice being available to someone then you aren't Pro-Choice are you???

I'm not psychoanalyzing you, I just don't believe you. I think you're being dishonest or that you just don't really know where you stand. I know you refer to the choice of an Abortion as "Killing Babies". I also know you have a strong dislike for Liberals and consider them to be Mentally damaged. I know you easily dismiss the fact that these videos are propaganda and still go along with the agenda they're pushing and are in support of defunding PP over them. I know you flopped on your argument from being "Tax Funded" to "PP making a profit" as the important issue.

But maybe I'm completely wrong about you, it's possible. I'm just going off this thread for the most part. But I'd be lying if I were to say that I believe everything you're saying here. I'm sorry if that offends you, but I don't and I'm not going to pretend like I do.

not once have i stated anywhere that i want PP defunded because they do abortions because if that were the case then id be looking to defund the thousands of other clinics and hospitals where women can get abortions.

Ive made it clear that if they are found to be ghouls and selling baby parts for profit then those clinics should be defunded.

my issue isnt so much with abortion (which i dont like) and im pretty sure other pro choice people feel the same, because i dont believe there are people who think abortion is a good thing but rather they see it as last resort, my issue is that an institution that is supposed to be a trusted healthcare provider might be doing things that are breaking the law.

So you can think and jump to conclusions about me all day if you like, ive no reason to lie, and ive made my stance clear on abortion and me being pro-choice since i joined, so im not pandering to garner some kind of favour....im pro-choice for first trimester abortions, i dont support 2nd trimester, im in favour of rape abortions, im in favour of medical abortions, i dont support "convenience abortions, or abortion used as a form of contraceptive....hope that clarifys

a reply to: kellyjay

well, I am sorry, if it's a choice between outbursts of uncontrollable rage, or senseless wars, or concentraion camps, or weird insane reasoning that targets particular groups, or mothers, who generally do have the strongest attachment to the unborn and children.... I would rather leave it to the mothers to decide!!!

I'm sorry, but as I see it, there's only one thing that is listed there that could be attributed to mothers killing their kids....
I'm talking about population control.....making sure the resources are there for the best, the most worthy!!!
the outbursts of uncontrollable rage, ya that could be a mother, or a father, or a some other guardian of the child....
the others though, and all have been used, are more systematic, something that is pushed from the top down.....

and right now, there's a push downward, the top wants more babies made, in most of the western countries, so well, ya, let's demonize abortions and birth control, bribe them if necessary (which is happening in other countries), penalize them if they don't comply (also happening in other countries), and well, I got a feeling if push came to shove we'd have stupid laws written that would attempt for force women to have the sex so they'd get pregnant.

but then, they are pushing for something that we don't have the resources to provide for.....not under the current economic system at least, especially when you consider most of the push is being directed at the lower income levels...so they want the poor people to produce more poor people, all of whom don't have the resources to provide for the little tykes....

this will only make it so it appears that we don't have the resources to provide for the population and well, the great pendulum will swing abruptly to the opposite and well, they will decide that the population will have to be reduced.....

now remember the last great push of the pendulum in the US was bush, and he pushed it so far right he ended up in left field!!

all I am saying is that no one should be pushing, let the mothers decide what they can handle, as long as they see that they can handle then I am sure that society will not find themselves unable to handle....
it's a far better option than concentration camps or wars, or some of the other crazy ideas they've come up with in the past to control it!

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: kellyjay

well, I am sorry, if it's a choice between outbursts of uncontrollable rage, or senseless wars, or concentraion camps, or weird insane reasoning that targets particular groups, or mothers, who generally do have the strongest attachment to the unborn and children.... I would rather leave it to the mothers to decide!!!

I'm sorry, but as I see it, there's only one thing that is listed there that could be attributed to mothers killing their kids....
I'm talking about population control.....making sure the resources are there for the best, the most worthy!!!
the outbursts of uncontrollable rage, ya that could be a mother, or a father, or a some other guardian of the child....
the others though, and all have been used, are more systematic, something that is pushed from the top down.....

and right now, there's a push downward, the top wants more babies made, in most of the western countries, so well, ya, let's demonize abortions and birth control, bribe them if necessary (which is happening in other countries), penalize them if they don't comply (also happening in other countries), and well, I got a feeling if push came to shove we'd have stupid laws written that would attempt for force women to have the sex so they'd get pregnant.

but then, they are pushing for something that we don't have the resources to provide for.....not under the current economic system at least, especially when you consider most of the push is being directed at the lower income levels...so they want the poor people to produce more poor people, all of whom don't have the resources to provide for the little tykes....

this will only make it so it appears that we don't have the resources to provide for the population and well, the great pendulum will swing abruptly to the opposite and well, they will decide that the population will have to be reduced.....

now remember the last great push of the pendulum in the US was bush, and he pushed it so far right he ended up in left field!!

all I am saying is that no one should be pushing, let the mothers decide what they can handle, as long as they see that they can handle then I am sure that society will not find themselves unable to handle....
it's a far better option than concentration camps or wars, or some of the other crazy ideas they've come up with in the past to control it!

ahh population control...gotcha , youre getting all margaret sanger on me now....tell me, should we just abort all black babies and babies with minor disabilitys so we can breed a pure race of thoroughbred whites?

a reply to: kellyjay

no, I am telling you that mothers are the best equipped to decide the fate of their child, base on their knowledge of the medical condition of the child and themselves, their economic position at the time, their need to remain employed, ect.

if they are poor, and they get pregnant, I ain't telling them to abort, heck I ain't even telling them that if they couldn't afford their kids they shouldn't have had them.
and if they are rich, I ain't saying that they should have more kids because they can afford more.

I am saying let them decide what is best for them and maybe, just maybe, we won't have to resort to such extreme measures in the future....

ya know, I don't know if it's the same in the UK, but in the US, in the better off neighborhoods, you are more likely to see small families...whereas you can find some rather large families in the poorer areas. seems like if the goal was trying to manipulate the population like you are suggesting, they are doing a really crappy job of it.....

a reply to: dawnstar

no, I am telling you that mothers are the best equipped to decide the fate of their child, base on their knowledge of the medical condition of the child and themselves, their economic position at the time, their need to remain employed, ect

agreed and i support that

ya know, I don't know if it's the same in the UK, but in the US, in the better off neighborhoods, you are more likely to see small families...whereas you can find some rather large families in the poorer areas. seems like if the goal was trying to manipulate the population like you are suggesting, they are doing a really crappy job of it....

no thats the same here, because the welfare system here pays you more if you have more kids...kinda like an incentive you know?

a reply to: kellyjay

no thats the same here, because the welfare system here pays you more if you have more kids...kinda like an incentive you know?

Right, because it was so easy raising my kids $555 a month during the time I had to be on welfare. I could have made more money working, and I did every chance I got, but until my younger two were old enough to go to school I had continuing issues obtaining and paying for daycare.

Of course I would relive it all over again just have them alive again.

For the record, if you are on welfare for 10 months prior to a child birth you can not get additional money for that child. I bring it up because the myth that you can get more money for having more kids still gets perpetuated even though it hasn't been like that since 1997.

originally posted by: calstorm
a reply to: kellyjay

no thats the same here, because the welfare system here pays you more if you have more kids...kinda like an incentive you know?

Right, because it was so easy raising my kids $555 a month during the time I had to be on welfare. I could have made more money working, and I did every chance I got, but until my younger two were old enough to go to school I had continuing issues obtaining and paying for daycare.

Of course I would relive it all over again just have them alive again.



For the record, if you are on welfare for 10 months prior to a child birth you can not get additional money for that child. I bring it up because the myth that you can get more money for having more kids still gets perpetuated even though it hasn't been like that since 1997.

perhaps you missed the part where i said "in the UK" and the word "here"......

I used PP all through college and even up into my career years WITH insurance. They are readily available, same day service, quality care and cheap. Never one abortion, go figure. I've had checkups, bought birth control, had an IUD removed, got treated for a yeast infection...all for a fraction of the cost of a regular doctor.

Your OP claims there's thousands of federally funded women's health clinics? That's funny, I've never seen ONE. Never even heard of ONE. As far as I know, if you're super poor you just get on Medicaid then you go to whatever doctor accepts Medicaid and Medicaid pays for the visit. Unfortunately there are A LOT of women that make just enough to not qualify for Medicaid, but don't really have enough to afford health care. Or women who are generally healthy and can get by just fine without Medicaid or even insurance, but still need help with women's issues from time to time.

Until I actually see these mythical federally funded women's health clinics on street corners and in strip malls....everyone needs to STFU and back off PP. They truly are providing a much needed service.

originally posted by: kellyjay

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: kellyjay

And we keep telling you that no PP clinic in the country receives funding for abortions (except in extreme cases). So defunding PP because of abortion issues is the wrong punishment. It will only hurt the OTHER services that PP provides. Why is this so hard for you to understand and accept?

what part of they get other funding that can be used for those services is you dont get?

And what does that have to do with government funding, you know the funding you are trying to cut off?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: kellyjay

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: kellyjay

And we keep telling you that no PP clinic in the country receives funding for abortions (except in extreme cases). So defunding PP because of abortion issues is the wrong punishment. It will only hurt the OTHER services that PP provides. Why is this so hard for you to understand and accept?

what part of they get other funding that can be used for those services is you dont get?

And what does that have to do with government funding, you know the funding you are trying to cut off?

im trying to cut off? how do propose i acheive that goal? lol.....if the investigation shows that they have been breaking the law AGAIN, then yes i believe those particular clinics should be defunded

actually if you think about it..they get 500 million a year, between 700 clinics, thats arond 160-170k per clinic, thats actually not that much, i can see why they commited fraud on a few occasions...pity they got busted

I wonder how many times haliburton has been found to be breaking the laws? I do believe it's been at least a couple of times. do they still get their no bid contracts from the gov't???

consistency in the enforcement of the laws would such a nice thing to have!!!!

if it's found that pp broke the laws, ya defund them, but then if you want my opinion, it should set a precedence for every other non-profit and for profit company out there and when they are found breaking the law, the funds should be cut from them also....
even those no bid contracts!!!

originally posted by: kellyjay

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: kellyjay

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: kellyjay

And we keep telling you that no PP clinic in the country receives funding for abortions (except in extreme cases). So defunding PP because of abortion issues is the wrong punishment. It will only hurt the OTHER services that PP provides. Why is this so hard for you to understand and accept?

what part of they get other funding that can be used for those services is you dont get?

And what does that have to do with government funding, you know the funding you are trying to cut off?

im trying to cut off? how do propose i acheive that goal? lol.....if the investigation shows that they have been breaking the law AGAIN, then yes i believe those particular clinics should be defunded

So instead of bringing criminal charges against the people who broke the law, you'd rather punish the whole organization for the errors of the few? Again those funds DON'T go to abortions. So in effect, you are holding other services PP provides hostage because of your insistence at defunding them.