Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: moobie

Russian military aircraft have crossed into Ukrainian airspace recently. You move at least a few of them to protect them against being bombed.

So far I have not heard of any Russian bombing in Ukraine, I have heard about Ukranian bombing Russian border check points and residents.

Can you show me some of these bombing runs by Russia?

a reply to: roadgravel

The ones in question though publicly stated that they would not fly over that area, and were later seen flying over that area on FR24.

a reply to: moobie

The plane crashed near Donetsk, it is a border area and it is being disputed.

a reply to: moobie

I didn't say they had. I said they crossed the border. They did shoot down a Ukrainian fighter though. If you wait until bomb runs start, you just lost your missile launchers.

originally posted by: DaFunk
a reply to: moobie

The plane crashed near Donetsk, it is a border area and it is being disputed.

A border area created by the self defence forces of the area, not Russia, it was claimed to be a disputed Russian border, it is a disputed by the Peoples Republic of Donesk and Ukraine, not Russia and the Peoples Republic of Donesk et al have no airforce that I know of, unless they done a MacGyver with some toilet roll, iron bars, match box and some sticky tape and made an airforce.

originally posted by: roadgravel

originally posted by: Rosinitiate

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Rosinitiate

At least five airlines were recently caught flying over the area after saying they wouldn't anymore.

Well there's a reason i only fly a particular airlines.

What airlines?

It varies really. Domestically I stick with carriers less prone to delays, although inevitable some are better than others with timeliness. Also consider their customer service and ease in making changes whether due to weather or customer needs. Delta is a great domestic carrier in my opinion. International also varies for different reasons but Deltas a good choice all around.

Big thing I look for is viability of a company internationally, I've seen all to often airlines going under and if they don't have strong relations with other carriers, they won't pick up the flights and the company won't refund you. These are also carriers willing to cut corners.

I have had or do own stock in Delta.

a reply to: moobie

Ok we are done here ok, the area borders Russia and people are fighting in it. It is exactly what I said. It seems you are just making a lot of noise.

originally posted by: DaFunk
a reply to: moobie

Ok we are done here ok, the area borders Russia and people are fighting in it. It is exactly what I said. It seems you are just making a lot of noise.

Acutally the self proclaimed peoples republic of the eastern region declared the border that is now disputed between them and Ukraine, Russia has not moved their borders, except for Crimea voted to join the Russian Federation. That is the only disputed border that I know off between Ukraine and Russia.

a reply to: moobie

Putting missile launchers there means that if Russian forces move in, the battery commanders have plenty of warning. If they were all near the Russian border they would be destroyed quickly if Russia comes across the border.

a reply to: moobie

Read!

I didn´t say disputed border.

I said disputed border area.

Is the area close to a border or not?

Are two parties fighting over it or not?

Can we please be done now?

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: roadgravel

The ones in question though publicly stated that they would not fly over that area, and were later seen flying over that area on FR24.

Yes, I understand that. The post was pointing out that other sere there also. A different point.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: moobie

Putting missile launchers there means that if Russian forces move in, the battery commanders have plenty of warning. If they were all near the Russian border they would be destroyed quickly if Russia comes across the border.

Lots of big IF's, big IF's are huff puff hot air. Nothing substantial.

Given that Ukraine is / was one of the largest manufacturers of Russian equipment (which they will now lose out on), they have certinally both the training and supply and know how for these systems. They are not like playing video games aim shoot or whatever. There is quite an involved firing sequence in these things.

Russia has no intention of crossing the border, that is very obvious, unless they get dragged into this which is what Ukraine wants. NATO vs Russia, what about this tweet a month ago stating the fact they will down a European passanger jet to get NATO involved, why would somebody Tweet that a MONTH ahead of this incident? We all know Ukranians in the West hate russians with a passion, we all know they flapped their gobs off about what they wanted to do et al. I have a good memory even if others do not.

Lets look who has the most to gain and lose from this.

Everybody in the West gains, Russia loses.

a reply to: moobie

And if you base your strategy on what's happening at that moment you've lost before the shooting even starts. Of course you are going to base actions on IF.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: moobie

And if you base your strategy on what's happening at that moment you've lost before the shooting even starts. Of course you are going to base actions on IF.

So many things were done and said prior to this, indicating fore knowledge and the desire to do such an event to make this just a "oops, oh dear" event.

a reply to: moobie

Lots of big IF's, big IF's are huff puff hot air. Nothing substantial.

Dude, you are asking why Ukraine has missile launchers.

No answer seems good enough for you, but to most people the question itself is kinda ...."duh".

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Rosinitiate

They still have to make the decision to close the airspace though. That's the part that takes awhile.

Hell after the shoe bombing attempt it took four or five days before we got the initial threat warning.

Which I can understand. My issue regarding this logic or lack thereof, is that most airlines refrain from flying to or through countries due to government embargoes and flight restriction as well as airline business decisions. It's the business aspect of this that has me baffled. As stated before, flying around the region versus going through it is a matter of adding a fuel charge (or increasing an existing fuel charge) into the fare.

Even if ICAO issued no such warning at 31,000 but did have existing restrictions in placed. That in addition to knowing that cargo planes were being targeted and downed days before, flying over the area is/was the dumbest business decision. The risk was too great and I can't believe Malaysia Air wouldn't have received word of the downed craft.

a reply to: moobie

So many things were done and said prior to this, indicating fore knowledge and the desire to do such an event to make this just a "oops, oh dear" event.

I agree with that though.

a reply to: Rosinitiate

Which I can understand. My issue regarding this logic or lack thereof, is that most airlines refrain from flying to or through countries due to government embargoes and flight restriction as well as airline business decisions. It's the business aspect of this that has me baffled. As stated before, flying around the region versus going through it is a matter of adding a fuel charge (or increasing an existing fuel charge) into the fare.

This is even hardly an issue since the actual danger area is not that big. Plotting a course to avoid it wouldn't make that big of a difference relatively speaking.

a reply to: SomebodySomeone

For short periods of time maybe, but do not come to close or get to work.

If they were serious in cooperating, we would have been able to bring our people home already, collect those black boxes and investigate every piece of debris from the aircraft.

But the bodies have been taken away, looters have been searching for everything deemed valuable like phones tablets wallets and bank cards, personal belongings.
The black boxes have been taken away, people messing around with parts of the airplane, it might well be that important pieces of information have been taken away and destroyed so what is exactly left for them to investigate?

This is pure contempt towards the innocent people who lost their lives and to their relatives.

a reply to: earthling42

Im in Australia we lost 28 our Prime Minister is outraged as well,we are very close to recommending Putin not come to the G20 summit in Brisbane,if he does come the protests will be enormous