I'm trying to believe in God, Part 2

droid56
I have to admit that my belief in God has been wavering in recent years. So maybe you can help me.

God has always existed by definition. So if you tried to express the time before God created the physical universe and the non-physical universes, no number no matter how many zeroes are at the end of the number would be sufficient.

So what did God do for the billion times a billion times a billion times a billion infinities before he created something other than himself? Just exist in perfection?

Questions like this make me feel like the idea of God is somewhat ludicrous. But I am still not totally sure God doesn't exist.

edit on 8-3-2014 by droid56 because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-3-2014 by droid56 because: (no reason given)

Depends what you consider "God". If you mean a entity something like a omnipotent man… that has always been I don't think so… I would consider the true source and creator the substance (energy) that may have composed the "God(s)" other people believe in. It's a bit daft to consider a sentient enity that has simply always been… for what would they be composed of? Not so daft to imagine energy always being… as we have empirical evidence that energy always has been. The greeks had something like this in mind too with how they believed the primordial gods (aspects of existence) came from Chaos (exactly as it sounds) and the entities that people think of when they think of gods were spawned from the primordial gods (aspects of existence/planes/dimensions). In this way it becomes very possible to think of something always being… but it might not be as comforting to some as religions paint the origins of it all.

brazenalderpadrescorpio
Don't let others tell you what to think.

That advice should go double for anyone telling you anything about alleged Gods and/or Divine Authority as well.

Bleeeeep
reply to post by Akragon

 

Where we start is with our own minds. We are made in God's likeness.

No other thing in reality, that I know of, explains reality better than our own minds.

e.g. How can you put a boundary on space? There must always be something outside of space, or a boundary must always have something else outside of the boundary, right? Well... space is not something like a place as it is thought in materialism. Space is like the darkness within your mind's eye, of which, there is no boundary. You can move things in your mind infinity apart or together - just as you can in space. Planck scale is not the most finite point - it is the most finite point we can measure - it is when there is nothing but uncertainty there to measure. And if you really think about it - all is uncertainty because no measurement is truly finite - they are all figurative or based on approximation.

Good one!

reply to post by mOjOm


I don't doubt the veracity of your statement. I simply thought it was implied that he had some belief in God at his core, and couldn't wrap his mind around the "meta-physics" of God.

brazenalderpadrescorpio
I'm starting to understand why you're wavering in your faith. The problem is that you're bogged down by a dogmatic view of God. Don't let others tell you what to think.

I believe this to be the truth.

brazenalderpadrescorpio
Don't let others tell you what to think.

mOjOm
That advice should go double for anyone telling you anything about alleged Gods and/or Divine Authority as well.

You guys do not see the paradox in your statements?

You are effectively telling others what to think by telling them not to listen to what others say - thus canceling out your very own statement.

Mark 16:15
Ezekiel 3:17-19

reply to post by Bleeeeep


True.

reply to post by Bleeeeep


Wait...I didn't cancel out his statement, he cancelled out my statement.

droid56
I have to admit that my belief in God has been wavering in recent years. So maybe you can help me.

God has always existed by definition. So if you tried to express the time before God created the physical universe and the non-physical universes, no number no matter how many zeroes are at the end of the number would be sufficient.

So what did God do for the billion times a billion times a billion times a billion infinities before he created something other than himself? Just exist in perfection?

Questions like this make me feel like the idea of God is somewhat ludicrous. But I am still not totally sure God doesn't exist.

edit on 8-3-2014 by droid56 because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-3-2014 by droid56 because: (no reason given)

I believe one of the major mistakes you are making is based on our linear interpretation of time. You see time to God is more like a river Engulfing Past, Present and Future. He can see both ends of the river and everything in the middle and it all flows at once. You must also remember God created time and is not part of it. So when you say no number of zeros would be sufficient you are actually making a flaw. Time doesn't exist in eternity. I would say eternity is closer to zero then a very large number. Eternity is outside the realm of time.

reply to post by Bleeeeep


Well I guess we've gotten ourselves into yet another conundrum then haven't we???

The agony of linguistic paradoxes!!

reply to post by mOjOm


I wonder if this can be expressed through performance art. I'm trapped in a rectangle, and mOjOm is trapped in a cylindrical object. We achieve congruence by accepting each other.

benrl


Well, lets postulate that IF god exist, he is a cause that exist outside the physical universe.

IE: If he caused the Big bang, he existed before it.

If that is the case, than your very concept of time is off, there would be none to an entity that existed outside the bounds of our physical universe, as something that caused the big bang would be.

You are thinking very 4 dimensionlly about God, something most do, they place God in a very human box.

Thank you for saying the only reasonable thing on this thread.If there is a creator God they do not exist in this realm as we do.The constrains of the limited dimensions of the physical realm can't bind them to the physical laws.Even the ancients understand the concept of "eternity" is false.The Greek word for eternity or eternal is aeon(that is what eternal or eternity means in the New testament btw)....and age.It is not "infinite time but a limited age of time.

If there is a creator God "the Father" it would be impossible for them to exist in these limited dimensions as we do.It would be like Walt Disney trying to super impose himself on the paper he is drawing Mickey Mouse on.Mickeys "universe" is only 2 dimensions and Walt is 3 dimensional.If there is a creator God they would have to be infinitely dimensional.

Walt can create Mickeys world all from one point on his pencil.Everything in Mickeys World is from Walts world..What Mickey would perceive as time is not in Walts experience of time at all.The same would be true for the creator God.The construct of time and space of this universe/realm could not be the same for the creator God.

The biggest fallacy of mans "God in a Box" is your last point.The creator God cannot fit into a box of human thought.Anything man can perceive or conceive of a God (or no God) was all from the creator God.Just as Mickey can have no thoughts unless Walt puts them into Mickeys very limited and empty mind.Something cannot come from nothing...and that's the crux of the most confounding conundrum.That your "thoughts" are you own.That simply is not possible if there is a creator God.Nothing is your own.EVERYTHING has been created by the creator God.To believe anything less is not the creator God but just a god made in the image of man...think happy thoughts...

reply to post by droid56


You will never understand as God understands. Quit trying to imagine as He can, because you can't and wont. I know I sound negative however hear me out.

Try to imagine a 4 or 5 or 8 dimensional object. If you can't even do that then why do you try to ponder on what was before there was and how God operates.

He transcends time and space. He is not defined by space or time. How can we even understand how that works when we are here stuck in three dimensions of space and hard pressed by time?

Try not believing in god, see if that helps?

reply to post by Rex282


Well, I am of the honest belief that the only truly intellectually honest stand point is Agnostic.

Everything else is emotion driven, be it a Theist or an Atheist.

As an example, back when the big bang was first postulated the majority of Scientist fought it, WHY? Because by implication it suggested an "orginal" cause outside of time, which rubbed them the wrong way, far to near "god".

Skip ahead a bit, and everyones chosen to forget why that Mattered, as if to Ignore what that cause was, and its been a race sense to determine a theory that allows for no Original causes.

Sounds like an Emotional response to even suggesting God could be a viable part of the equation, One would say they are trying to avoid the "god" of the gaps argument.

However by Avoiding that, you are neglecting a key fact, WE DON"T even have a Unifying field theory, OUR level of understanding of the world we live in is so limited, yet we all go around spouting what we know and dont...

Theist and Atheist.

Are lying to themselves if they think they have any more than "faith" to go on.

benrl
reply to post by Rex282

 

Well, I am of the honest belief that the only truly intellectually honest stand point is Agnostic.

Everything else is emotion driven, be it a Theist or an Atheist.

As an example, back when the big bang was first postulated the majority of Scientist fought it, WHY? Because by implication it suggested an "orginal" cause outside of time, which rubbed them the wrong way, far to near "god".

Skip ahead a bit, and everyones chosen to forget why that Mattered, as if to Ignore what that cause was, and its been a race sense to determine a theory that allows for no Original causes.

Sounds like an Emotional response to even suggesting God could be a viable part of the equation, One would say they are trying to avoid the "god" of the gaps argument.

However by Avoiding that, you are neglecting a key fact, WE DON"T even have a Unifying field theory, OUR level of understanding of the world we live in is so limited, yet we all go around spouting what we know and dont...

Theist and Atheist.

Are lying to themselves if they think they have any more than "faith" to go on.

edit on 9-3-2014 by benrl because: (no reason given)

Would love to hear your response to this thread friend

www.abovetopsecret.com...

brazenalderpadrescorpio
It's naive to think that we are God's crowning achievement. We're not even that smart or kind to others and other beings. God has created countless joys and has sat through countless sorrows before us.

Now you are very far outside the box. I think you are correct.

droid56
reply to post by droid56

 

I am trying to understand how god could play the decisive role in the creation of the universe. The plot is weak, but the truth is a mystery.

From my point of view: You just bend chance/synchronicity a little here and there to manifest something you want. Lucky ones=the ones who bends synchronicity.

bitsforbytes
reply to post by droid56

 

You will never understand as God understands. Quit trying to imagine as He can, because you can't and wont. I know I sound negative however hear me out.

Try to imagine a 4 or 5 or 8 dimensional object. If you can't even do that then why do you try to ponder on what was before there was and how God operates.

He transcends time and space. He is not defined by space or time. How can we even understand how that works when we are here stuck in three dimensions of space and hard pressed by time?

edit on 9-3-2014 by bitsforbytes because: (no reason given)

Maybe by letting go of time being a factor and understand that you are an eternal being who is changing from one moment to the next. You might not have all the inputs that god does and the processing power but you can try to reach the highest level of understanding "off all that is" with the tool at your disposal and let the unknown just be until you get other tool to experience and explore it.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


It would be the same to this one, Agnostic is still a more logical world view than either Theist or Atheist.

Myself I have illogical emotional reasons, stemming from experience that tilts me one way, doesn't make my view "logical" or explainable.

My world view relies as much on "faith" as an Atheist, Who is taking it on faith that science will explain the greater mysteries of the world to us at some point in the future. That the current trend and history of science gives them enough foresight to rule out all possibility of a "Creator", Even disgauarding modern scientific theory such as "holographic" Universe, or simulation theory as possible at all (as both could lend to an "intelligent designer" or alien intellect).

As a Theist, I am taking it on "faith" that my past experience tilts my view toward a Creator, only provable to ME and no one else.


An Agnostic says, We don't know enough about the very nature of the world we live in, to begin to speculate.

Whose most "logical" in the above?