Dr. Jacques Vallee ~ The Control System

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
Nature knows nothing about 'good' or 'evil'..
those are purely human invented concepts. If I hit you in the nose, you might call me 'evil'. If I buy you
lunch, you might call me 'good'. That's as far as it goes.

I'm sorry, I have to disagree with this 'philosophy'...Bear with me, please - this may seem to go off-topic, but it really isn't, it's more like 'background'...

Good and Evil aren't merely "human invented concepts". In terms of consciousness, they are polarities of behavior inherent to the very "nature" of humankind (and perhaps all sentient beings) without which we would have no concept of free-will...

Animals are not "just like humans", because since we are 'self' conscious, human beings have the power of 'choice'...we can choose to behave against 'instinct', if we want.
We can choose not to be "slayers of the natural world" in order to survive...There are many indigenous tribes that reverence nature, utilizing ecologically sound harvest practices, killing humanely for meat (even offering up prayers of thankfulness and blessing for the animals they hunt).

("gray" is not the absence of 'light and dark', it is a 'combination' of the two...)

The fact that nature 'often' boils down to "eat or be eaten" has nothing to do with the existence of good and evil...because good and evil have nothing to do with 'survival' - what good and evil boil down to is 'intention' and the choices we make as result of our intentions...

Examples:
You hit me in the nose: subjectively, people might call you evil (maybe you just wanted to cause me pain) - objectively, people might say you had good reason (maybe I purposely made you angry enough to do it).

Your taking me to lunch seems 'good' objectively, but subjectively maybe you're trying to manipulate me for some 'illicit' reason...

It comes down to the question of what your intentions are - kind/loving? or harmful/'selfishly' self-serving?

Both objectively and subjectively, the first results in the choice to do 'good', the second results in the choice to do 'evil'...


Now, all that said, I think that 'if' the CLE is 'intentionally' causing us harm as a result of it's desire/choice to feed on us, we might all agree that it is evil....

And even if the CLE has no other food source, the fact that they have abilities to 'manipulate' human 'reality', might still define them as 'evil' - unless they chose to feed 'humanely' by creating what would seem to 'us' a pleasant experience of their feeding...

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: tetra50

Fully informed consent is VERY RARE on this planet.. 'provisional consent'
based upon wishful thinking is the way it goes on this planet.. we are
swindled to give our mostly uneducated consent all day, every day...
politics, religion, spirituality, commerce, relationships.. it's endless..

You truly are a piece of work, Kev. Where to begin? I guess it would be your faith-based "religion." What in the world would make you think your own personal interpretation of your experience is more valid than anyone else's throughout history? You certainly can't site any facts or objective research, just your own extremely subjective and oft-changing opinion. That's faith…like it or not. And religiosity.

I'm flattered that myself (and others) have made some impact on you. Take the "Trickster" concept for example. I never heard one thing from you regarding that subject until it was suggested to you by myself and then, suddenly, your theorem was all "trickster" this and "trickster" that at that stage in time. Your opinion of Vallee has certainly been positively enhanced over time as well, in spite of allegedly having a good mutual friend and the fact that he apparently doesn't want anything to do with you. I wonder why?

As far as I can tell--and see it--you've followed me around these boards and have absorbed many of the ideas and somehow integrated them into your personal fantasy that you have sole ownership of the "truth."

I like you---sometimes I even agree with you. I certainly wish you good fortune. Truly I do. However, the arc of your ATS education and the ever-changing explanations of your theory belies the certainty of your asseverations.

My own subjective opinion? You've been pwned. By the very system in question here. Just an opinion of course. Much like yours. With the notable exception that I've actually stated at least one fact ("trickster") and the arc of your fascination with my own musings. I would also note your fandom of nazi worshipper Michael Aquino. Sad case that one. As deluded as he is bright, imo. What a waste.

I note, too, that Aquino wanted as much to do with your theories as Doc Jock does. That being zilch.

Good and evil? Don't be silly. lostgirl did a good job on that philosophically. Intent vs. instinct.

a reply to: The GUT

I gave your reply a star because you have the fortitude to speak your mind.

I find various things you said in the reply to be of value.. but historically you and
I get into these non-productive loops, so I will wish you a good day sir!

Kev

a reply to: lostgirl

Hi,

I know it's very harsh for people to live without concepts of good and evil
and 'free will'. These concepts do provide some level of social glue; at least
that is what various sociological studies have stated.

I could pick apart your response in various ways, by discussing animal species
which have passed the mirror test, and by bringing up the research of Benjamin
Libet and others since his ground-breaking work. But there is no need for that..
you said your piece and that's cool. I certainly have never sought to be part of
a consensus opinion. Truth is a very slippery business, and what's more important
is that we enjoy our journey and make a valid contribution of some sort, if possible.
Even the laws of physics may be quire different than even the brightest minds currently
conjecture.

I always encourage you to speak your mind, and thanks for doing so.

Kev

a reply to: The GUT

Dear Gut,

I thought you'd be interested to know, that I'm now in communication with
Dr. Vallee. He is quite a gentleman. However he did make it clear that he
wishes to stay out of the lime light, so I will respect that and not pester
him with questions or attempt to get him to do a AMA on ATS.

For the record, in case I haven't made this point clear to you in the past..
your posts here on ATS were very helpful to me.. I've learned a great deal
from you.. for example I had no idea two years ago that many UFOs were just
'trickster phenomenon' and not actual physical craft, except for some
deceptive stuff flown by the military. You really opened my eyes to a whole
new world sir, and I'll always be grateful to you.

Kevin

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Awww, Kevin, the truth is is that I 'm increasing rapidly towards my apparent destiny: Grouchy Old Man. I realized while taking a shower (great place for personal insight) that at least part of what I get flustered about with you is a mirror of my own self.

What I mean is we both have an intense interest in certain subjects that we feel are important, and as such we both drive a certain percentage of the membership here crazy with our one-track focus.

When I rejoined the boards a few weeks ago, it was on the heels of some posts from you that contained, imo, some real nuggets.

Glad you are in contact with the good doctor and I'm in total agreement not to invite him to an AMA here. It's pretty obvious and entirely understandable what his answer would be and would only sully your serious dialogue with him. I do hope you will be able to share some of what y'all discuss, but I also understand if you can't.

Btw, did anyone catch the following vid from Sammamishman on the black triangles/RK research thread? It's about EM fields and the pursuit of savant-like abilities. Wish I had been familiar with it when doing the EM/UFOs thread as it begs for some discussion.

a reply to: lostgirl

LostG... I like it. I love reducing complexities to easier to handle chunks when at all possible.

KPB... It seems to me evil and good, can be seen at the source (past feeding own ego to nurturing others at the sometimes expense of one's own, etc.) as a "to be... or not to be..." concept.

Either we embrace/rejoice in being aware at all... and existing in any number of ways and places... or we recoil from being aware and the sometimes resultant deep pains of awareness.

Anyway, that's my take ... today at this moment... someone will say something soon to modify that thought... boy I love awareness and recommend it for others... I am sure good!

And GUT re: KPB... just intellectually sleep with the man and cut this darned tension! Get a room you two!

You guys are swell...

originally posted by: Baddogma
a reply to: lostgirl

LostG... I like it. I love reducing complexities to easier to handle chunks when at all possible.

KPB... It seems to me evil and good, can be seen at the source (past feeding own ego to nurturing others at the sometimes expense of one's own, etc.) as a "to be... or not to be..." concept.

Either we embrace/rejoice in being aware at all... and existing in any number of ways and places... or we recoil from being aware and the sometimes resultant deep pains of awareness.

Anyway, that's my take ... today at this moment... someone will say something soon to modify that thought... boy I love awareness and recommend it for others... I am sure good!

Woah, nicely put and deep.

And GUT re: KPB... just intellectually sleep with the man and cut this darned tension! Get a room you two!

You guys are swell...

Gut and K-Bear sittin' in a tree...

a reply to: tetra50

Oh and Tetra, the "trailer park" comment was crass and I, too, abhor stereotypes in general ... but it's a placeholder for the (mostly) abbreviated speech on the www.

I have found deep complexity and intellectual beauty in the lower strata of the socioeconomic morass. In fact, far more than the upper strata... and I myself am firmly in that lower strata... and have inhabited worse places than trailer parks.. in fact the old house I now inhabit has holes in it's roof and I was awakened during the last storm by a water bed... which I did not know I had until then.

Anyway, thanks for popping up publicly as an Astr0 "contact." I need more of you guys to come out so the rest of the community gets why this is a tad different from many other "reveals."

ETA re: GUTs above comment... deep? I guess... I'm just good at meta analysis as I'm too lazy to learn the "cant" or lingo of philosophy and metaphysics... and the best insights usually cut to the quick, anyway.

a reply to: The GUT

"You damn kids get off o' my lawn!"

I understand. I get all Mr. Cranky sometimes too.

Yes, we tend to dislike most in others, what we dislike most about ourselves.

I hope we can play nice.. we both love 'this stuff'.

Thanks for the olive branch.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

RE: "... we tend to dislike most in others, what we dislike most about ourselves"

It's termed 'Transference' in Psych 101 (and on) txt books and is the truest insight into human interaction and the state of individual being EVER.

And when you sit back and examine that statement in regards to "hating" or "disgust" or "annoyance" and "mistrust/paranoia" with/of others, its 'true-ness' becomes more and more apparent.

We are such beautiful, enigmatic processors, we are!

ETA oh ... and it works for love, too... at least the mental aspects. As far as physical, standard duality based lust... not so much. 'T' and 'a ' are not something I, alas, posses... heh.

The GUT: I have a TDCS unit. Haven't tried to fire the liminal areas of the brain yet.

originally posted by: 1ofthe9
The GUT: I have a TDCS unit. Haven't tried to fire the liminal areas of the brain yet.

Lawzy, 1o9, I worry about you. I'm fascinated, though, don't get me wrong. I would suggest some experiments, but I don't know if I could live with myself if things went badly.

Interesting thread.
I see that the question that the question on non-existence of good and evil has come up.
And I myself have a question for those who don't believe in existence of either good or evil;

You do realize, that if evil doesn't exist, then the raping of a child is neither evil nor even bad(because the concept of "bad" is derivative of the concept of "evil")?

What I don't like about the people posting here is that you are all so damn smart, super smart, brilliant and insightful. And that is just annoying.

we tend to dislike most in others, what we dislike most about ourselves

Well that makes sense.

originally posted by: john666
Interesting thread.
I see that the question that the question on non-existence of good and evil has come up.
And I myself have a question for those who don't believe in existence of either good or evil;

You do realize, that if evil doesn't exist, then the raping of a child is neither evil nor even bad(because the concept of "bad" is derivative of the concept of "evil")?

I don't believe in 'cosmic good and evil'. I certainly believe in 'relative' apparent good and evil.
For example; we all see no doubt, that child rape is totally and completely abhorrent or
'evil' if you must. But let's say that there was a species out there somewhere to whom we
weren't event ants. To THEM 'child rape' wouldn't even exist.. it would be the pointless
activity of ants.

Humans try to imprint their values on the laws of physics... and in fact
that's why we have the Control Loop Entity in it's current state ---- look
how well that has turned out!

Kev

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear

originally posted by: john666
Interesting thread.
I see that the question that the question on non-existence of good and evil has come up.
And I myself have a question for those who don't believe in existence of either good or evil;

You do realize, that if evil doesn't exist, then the raping of a child is neither evil nor even bad(because the concept of "bad" is derivative of the concept of "evil")?

I don't believe in 'cosmic good and evil'. I certainly believe in 'relative' apparent good and evil.
For example; we all see no doubt, that child rape is totally and completely abhorrent or
'evil' if you must. But let's say that there was a species out there somewhere to whom we
weren't event ants. To THEM 'child rape' wouldn't even exist.. it would be the pointless
activity of ants.

Humans try to imprint their values on the laws of physics... and in fact
that's why we have the Control Loop Entity in it's current state ---- look
how well that has turned out!

Kev

You mentioned the analogy of the superior race, and how this superior race may not even view us as ants, and how accordingly, they may not view human child rape as an issue at all.
The idea probably came to you mind, because of the way we treat animals.
That is, the way we slaughter animals, without conscience.

But slaughtering animals may be evil, and humanity is maybe paying a horrible price for that act.

originally posted by: john666

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear

originally posted by: john666
Interesting thread.
I see that the question that the question on non-existence of good and evil has come up.
And I myself have a question for those who don't believe in existence of either good or evil;

You do realize, that if evil doesn't exist, then the raping of a child is neither evil nor even bad(because the concept of "bad" is derivative of the concept of "evil")?

I don't believe in 'cosmic good and evil'. I certainly believe in 'relative' apparent good and evil.
For example; we all see no doubt, that child rape is totally and completely abhorrent or
'evil' if you must. But let's say that there was a species out there somewhere to whom we
weren't event ants. To THEM 'child rape' wouldn't even exist.. it would be the pointless
activity of ants.

Humans try to imprint their values on the laws of physics... and in fact
that's why we have the Control Loop Entity in it's current state ---- look
how well that has turned out!

Kev

You mentioned the analogy of the superior race, and how this superior race may not even view us as ants, and how accordingly, they may not view human child rape as an issue at all.
The idea probably came to you mind, because of the way we treat animals.
That is, the way we slaughter animals, without conscience.

But slaughtering animals may be evil, and humanity is maybe paying a horrible price for that act.

As to your final statement ... I can't disagree that you may have a point there.

As to the gist of the tussle over 'good and evil' -- humans are currently too primitive
in my view, to get such 'cosmic' matters right at this time... if it even makes sense
to attempt to do so...

Nature is definitely red in tooth and claw.. etc. And while we humans think we are 'special'
we are in fact ... quite probably not.

Kev

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear

originally posted by: john666

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear

originally posted by: john666
Interesting thread.
I see that the question that the question on non-existence of good and evil has come up.
And I myself have a question for those who don't believe in existence of either good or evil;

You do realize, that if evil doesn't exist, then the raping of a child is neither evil nor even bad(because the concept of "bad" is derivative of the concept of "evil")?

I don't believe in 'cosmic good and evil'. I certainly believe in 'relative' apparent good and evil.
For example; we all see no doubt, that child rape is totally and completely abhorrent or
'evil' if you must. But let's say that there was a species out there somewhere to whom we
weren't event ants. To THEM 'child rape' wouldn't even exist.. it would be the pointless
activity of ants.

Humans try to imprint their values on the laws of physics... and in fact
that's why we have the Control Loop Entity in it's current state ---- look
how well that has turned out!

Kev

You mentioned the analogy of the superior race, and how this superior race may not even view us as ants, and how accordingly, they may not view human child rape as an issue at all.
The idea probably came to you mind, because of the way we treat animals.
That is, the way we slaughter animals, without conscience.

But slaughtering animals may be evil, and humanity is maybe paying a horrible price for that act.

As to your final statement ... I can't disagree that you may have a point there.

As to the gist of the tussle over 'good and evil' -- humans are currently too primitive
in my view, to get such 'cosmic' matters right at this time... if it even makes sense
to attempt to do so...

Nature is definitely red in tooth and claw.. etc. And while we humans think we are 'special'
we are in fact ... quite probably not.

Kev

I believe we humans are special in Nature, because we are able to change our environment, while the animals are not.
As far as humans killing animals and animals killing other animals, in so called ancient myths, there are stories about ancient Earth being a paradise, where there was no killing at all.
Maybe these myths are true.

a reply to: john666

Humans may be 'special' due to their symbiotic relationship
with more creative aspects of nature.. but personally I
don't feel it's anything to write home to mother about.

All species go extinct, as will humans.

Also, various other creatures do affect the environment
such as beavers who damn up rivers... various creatures
like goats who strip away all vegetation until topsoil
is lost,etc. But yes, your point that humans are the
best killers and destroyers the planet may have ever
seen is certainly valid. Again -- I'm not proud of this
tendency, but in fact ashamed of it.

Kev