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America and its last free breath. A Rant by the Kid.

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posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 12:37 PM
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Another development for you Astrocreep. Before the patriot act, peaceful protest were only allowed on public property. It could not be done on private property. You couldnt go inside of KFC to boycott, but you could stand on the sidewalk infront of it with all the signs you wanted. This is not so now that we have the patriot act.




posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by astrocreep
I understand this inhibits the attention some seek for their cause but we are all citizens and none of us are entitled to more rights than other simply because it has been judged by a self-righteous few that we're wrong in our beliefs.
Do you still think your right to free speech is any more important than anyone elses?


I hear the same phrasing about being entitled to "more" rights than others in relation to same-sex marriage too. The problem isn't that some people want more rights, it's that they want the same rights as everyone else, the rights spelled out in the constitution. Limiting the right of free speech and protest benefits those in power who are acting in ways that generate protest. If there is no way to express this, then americans are prevented from taking part in shaping their government. Combine this with questionable voting procedures, and no citizen has any way of taking part in their own governance, which is another fundamental right.

Again, this benefits those in power, and the followers of those people. It's easy to say turn off the TV or shut the door if your interests are being protected. It's much harder to allow free and equal exercise of those rights when it involves views that contradict those of the people in power. If Bush & Co. are acting illegally and unconstitutionally, then the only recourse may be to protest this, get word out in any way possible that the fox is running the hen house. If you're the fox, or getting a free hen or two, of course you don't want your gravy train derailed. So you try to suppress word of your actions getting out.

Free speech may be a pain in the a$$ sometimes. I was in Seattle for WTO and dealt with tear gas and work shutdowns. But the right of people to expose criminal government actions is key to a healthy democracy.

--Saerlaith



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 12:56 PM
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Originally posted by Kidfinger
Another development for you Astrocreep. Before the patriot act, peaceful protest were only allowed on public property. It could not be done on private property. You couldnt go inside of KFC to boycott, but you could stand on the sidewalk infront of it with all the signs you wanted. This is not so now that we have the patriot act.


Is that so? I'd likely say much of these regulations, if there are any, are city ordinances of which I will agree wtih you, take things too far sometimes to accomodate the population which have to live and work together. many city council leaders feel that people just don't like to spend their afternoon sitting in traffic because a protest has main street blocked. Because we live in such a populated society and because there are so many other people with so many other priorities and agendas which are not impeding us, why then must we protest on the sidewalk or in the street? Why must we make life hell on everyone else to get our point across to people who largely don't care anyway?

Did it ever occur to any of you that blocking a street with a protest might cost someone their life if they needed EMS?

Could we not be better understood and taken more seriously if we took the route of orgs like move on.org and got our message our intellegently?


Do we all not realize that it has always been illegal to tresspass, hinder the flow of traffic, and assualt people?... and do we too not realize that standing in front of a KFC blocking the entrance is dangerous to one's own health? ...or at least it is in KY.



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 12:57 PM
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Originally posted by astrocreep
It maybe , in your opinion, but its the law. I personally think its one of the better liberties we have. If I don't like what someone is saying on TV, I have the right to turn it off. If I want to meet with a group of like minded people freely and legally, I can do so without harrassment and so can you the only catch is, I can't take that group of like minded people and burst in on you and your group, force you to hear what we think about what you're doing.

What you're failing to consider is the fact that this is a majority favoring country. What if the protestors are the majority? What if they're protesting the fact that the majority is not being treated as such anymore? They may indeed be, these days. They have been before. We'll never know, since they're being "legally" repressed now. And, as we saw in the WTO protests, if they can't be controlled, they'll just send in masked henchmen to cause chaos which can be easily associated with the entire group of opposition. We're not talking about individual rights in this case. We're talking about the right to assemble, organize, and voice our opinions about the government....especially when they're doing wrong. If you want to see a revolutionary war, this is a great way of getting one started. See, if people can't protest peacefully, they're going to start protesting in other ways, which might not be so harmless.


Originally posted by astrocreep
many city council leaders feel that people just don't like to spend their afternoon sitting in traffic because a protest has main street blocked.

Tough! Then maybe they should pay attention to the issues instead of ignoring them. After all, those ignorant people are probably the ones who are supporting the organization that's being protested. Selfishness is no excuse. Oh, those poor people voted for Bush, and now they have to wait in traffic because there are too many protestors in the way!
Give me a f'ing break!
Maybe they should consider that it might be their own fault. Maybe they should consider that those protestors may be angry with them. Maybe they should try thinking once in awhile, instead of assuming the issues have nothing to do with them.


It's always been my opinion that, if a crapload of people are protesting, there's usually a damn good reason.

[edit on 16-11-2004 by Damned]



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 01:48 PM
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So, its the fault of the people who are hassled by your protest that you're out there? Whoa, thats really reaching! Lokk, I have never said you did not have a right to protest and get your message out only that you don't have the right to force it upon those unwilling to hear it. There is a big difference you are all purposfully ignoring in order to keep spewing out the same tired arguments which people have been bitching about since the 60s all of which must be news to you all since none of you can grasp that these were issues long before the year 2000.

Look, rent a hall, go to a freinds house, reserve your community center or public meeting hall and have all the protests you want. Run adds on radio (until BPL destroys it) and have a big old time and rest assured that your rights to do this un-interupted by those who disagree are 100% protected. But, don't think that if any other group wants to do the same that you and your group have the right to stop them either.

What if your local wiccan and or pagan group was interupted by a local church while in the woods in the middle of their ceromony? Would the church have the right to protest right there in the midst of it? Would you not be appalled that someone elses religion is being forcfully cast on those who don't want it? Would it be okay if the church met in their own house while the pagans met in their church or location and denounced them to their willfull attendees? Sure it would because then, even though the church is denouncing them, they are not impuning on their rights to assemble peacfully either.

I'm all for protesting...in fact, I'd love to know where I can protest the amount of taxes coming out of my pay without the IRS targeting me for an audit..but can we not plan our protest so it doesn't imped anyone elses rights to assemble and still get our message out? I think we can and I think we'll find you catch more flies with honey than vinager. There's nothing wrong with directing what would be blinding rage into a logical and well-guided operation and I think you'll find you'll get more results putting your time and effort toward solid goals than throwing rocks in a parking lot looking like a bunch of mid-eveil villagers storming Draculas castle.



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 02:52 PM
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Originally posted by astrocreep
So, its the fault of the people who are hassled by your protest that you're out there? Whoa, thats really reaching! Lokk, I have never said you did not have a right to protest and get your message out only that you don't have the right to force it upon those unwilling to hear it.

If the protest is against unfair government practice, everyone needs to hear it, period. It's everyones' concern, whether they like it or not. It concerns everyone in the nation. There's a reason protest doesn't work anymore. It's because it's been systematically disabled. If they can't disable it, they'll slander it with dirty tactics, like the WTO protest.

[edit on 16-11-2004 by Damned]



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 03:01 PM
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Originally posted by Damned
[

If the protest is against unfair government practice, everyone needs to hear it, period. It's everyones' concern, whether they like it or not. It concerns everyone in the nation.

Thats only your opinion..and no matter how convicted you are in it you are going to have to finally deal with the fact that there are those who could give a damn less what you think. There are those who would think your ideal government is unfair. You are so caught up in what you think and its evident you intend on forcing it on everyone else. So, you think that if you feel justified in protesting, then we should all be forced to here it whether we want to or not?

Am I the only one here who sees just how rediculous this ideology is?

oh man, why have I wasted half a dozen post explainignsomething to someone who doesn't have the capacity to comprehend this simplistic ideal?


EDIT:
And by capacity I only mean we're not on the same wavelength. No insult to your ability. Thought better of the way I phrased that after I realized how you might take it.

Look, knock you self out with this power trip your on. I got other forums to check before I sign out for the day.



[edit on 16-11-2004 by astrocreep]



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by astrocreep
You are so caught up in what you think and its evident you intend on forcing it on everyone else. So, you think that if you feel justified in protesting, then we should all be forced to here it whether we want to or not?

Am I the only one here who sees just how rediculous this ideology is?

Isn't that what they're doing? They expect people to keep quiet about it because it annoys them to be told that they're promoting repression and corruption? Someone has to tell them, since they're too stupid to figure it out. I have news for you. The government isn't going to announce that they practice repression and corruption. So, who do you think is going to point this out, besides the American people? How ironic you see it that way.

This isn't my "power trip." This is in the Bill of Rights. I didn't make these rules.
I'm merely pointing out that the rules aren't being followed. I'm also pointing out that it's your right to protest. I can't believe there are so many people that want to squelch their very own rights!


[edit on 16-11-2004 by Damned]



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by astrocreep

Originally posted by Damned
[

If the protest is against unfair government practice, everyone needs to hear it, period. It's everyones' concern, whether they like it or not. It concerns everyone in the nation.

Thats only your opinion..and no matter how convicted you are in it you are going to have to finally deal with the fact that there are those who could give a damn less what you think. There are those who would think your ideal government is unfair. You are so caught up in what you think and its evident you intend on forcing it on everyone else. So, you think that if you feel justified in protesting, then we should all be forced to here it whether we want to or not?

Am I the only one here who sees just how rediculous this ideology is?

oh man, why have I wasted half a dozen post explainignsomething to someone who doesn't have the capacity to comprehend this simplistic ideal?

Look, knock you self out with this power trip your on. I got other forums to check before I sign out for the day.



Protesting is part of being an american. It's not just one person's opinion, it's a tradition that is protected by our founding documents. Protests are also a big part of how this country got founded. If those first americans hadn't took the trouble to face down people like you, there might not be a country to argue about. We'd still be good British subjects, not a rowdy bunch of americans.

And without protesting, black folk would still be under discriminatory laws, making them second class citizens legally. Is that right?

As for being one person's power trip, here's what the Bill of Rights says:


Bill of Rights
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. www.law.cornell.edu...


Let's see - free speech, free press, peaceable assembly, petitioning the government regarding grievances - sounds like our constitutional rights. Were the founding fathers on a power trip, or just wisely making sure americans would always have the right to call BS on the powers that be?

--Saerlaith



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 03:30 PM
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But I'm arguing for the same thing. The right to peacefully asemble..not to run into a peacefull assembly and force those who do not agree to hear you. If you asseble lawfully as per the consititution and spead your message, you will get a better response than forcing your ideology down the throats of the unwilling.

The right of free speech is not the right to be heard.

"People like me" still believe in that passage you just posted. The law allows us the right to do it so why must we break the law and take away the rights of others to do it simply because we don;t agree with them?



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 03:50 PM
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Originally posted by Saerlaith

Protesting is part of being an american. It's not just one person's opinion, it's a tradition that is protected by our founding documents. here's what the Bill of Rights says:


Bill of Rights
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. www.law.cornell.edu...


Were the founding fathers on a power trip, or just wisely making sure americans would always have the right to call BS on the powers that be?

--Saerlaith



Didn't Bush rewrite the Constitution and the Bill of Rights? ....I know things have been changed, but I'm confused exactly what has been done and where and how, and what't still allowed legally...

Does anyone know exactly what rights we have that are still protected? Thanks in advance...




.



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 04:20 PM
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Originally posted by astrocreep
But I'm arguing for the same thing. The right to peacefully asemble..not to run into a peacefull assembly and force those who do not agree to hear you. If you asseble lawfully as per the consititution and spead your message, you will get a better response than forcing your ideology down the throats of the unwilling.


When the "unwilling" are those who are infringing upon your rights, or supporting infringement upon your rights, there isn't much choice. Protest is the final straw before violence. It's people declaring that things aren't fair, and if you don't do something about it, there may very well be violence. If you remove that straw, you're going to skip straight to the violence.


The right of free speech is not the right to be heard.

"People like me" still believe in that passage you just posted. The law allows us the right to do it so why must we break the law and take away the rights of others to do it simply because we don;t agree with them?


But you seem to be supporting the repression of these rights. Protest doesn't have any effect unless it's an angry mob of people blocking streets, really. That's what protest used to be, back when it actually got media coverage. Drastic times call for drastic measures. These are drastic times, unfortunately. If the drastic measures call for protests in the street, then so be it. It's better than a civil or revolutionary war, isn't it? That's where we're headed, if you think silencing angry people is the way.


Originally posted by soficrow
Does anyone know exactly what rights we have that are still protected?

Apparently, there are none.
If your rights get in the way of political progress, they just redefine the constitution.


Here's a list of some of the things that have been blatantly violated...

www.lewrockwell.com...

[edit on 16-11-2004 by Damned]



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by astrocreep
But I'm arguing for the same thing. The right to peacefully asemble..not to run into a peacefull assembly and force those who do not agree to hear you. If you asseble lawfully as per the consititution and spead your message, you will get a better response than forcing your ideology down the throats of the unwilling.

The right of free speech is not the right to be heard.

"People like me" still believe in that passage you just posted. The law allows us the right to do it so why must we break the law and take away the rights of others to do it simply because we don;t agree with them?


A truly free country and free society will always have gray areas and loose edges. That's why appointing free-thinking judges to interpret our laws is so important. That keeps the laws growing with our society, rather than repressing growth and rights.

What is the major difference between Earth and the dead planets in our solar system? It has a molten core, generating magma movement, plate tectonics, magnetic fields - movement, change, chaos. It keeps us all alive. Without a bit of upheaval, the planet would become a cold, solid rock.

Without a bit of upheaval, humanity ceases to grow and learn. It may not always be tidy, but it's life!

--Saerlaith



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 07:15 PM
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Originally posted by Kidfinger
America. Land of the free and home of the brave. This is how I was taught to believe this when I was still a child. I believed it. I believed while I watched president Regan get shot. I believed when G.Bush senior went to war in Iraq the first time. I believed it while Clinton was showing us all how a good president should rule, I even believed it when Clinton was impeached. My resolve was shaken in 2000, when Bush stole the presidency. This is when my belief started to waver and has been in a decline every since this time. My beliefes were shattered in 2004 when Bush recieved 51% of the popular vote. I believe this no more.

America is turning into Pre WWII Germany. Our reporters are being arrested and put in prison for not revealing thier sources. Tax breaks are being given to those who dont deserve them. Our environment is being raped for profits of the big conglomorate companies. Our freedoms are being stripped due to the patriot act (Versions 1 and 2). I said this in another thread, and Im saying it here as well. Soon, our soldiers will be goosestepping to a new beat, and any one who addresses the president will have to do so with a hearty SIG HIEL! SIG HIEL! SIG HIEL! SIG HIEL!

The United States is going to hell in a hand basket. Is there nothing, as citizens of this once great and proud country, can do to return to our past glory? I hope for my childs sake, and the sake of my future grand children that something is done about this oppressive situation we are in today.


Hey EastCoastKid, President Bush never stole an election...

1. He was never behind in any recount. Yes there were several.
2. Florida did not matter. ALGORE could not even win his homestate of Tennessee, that is pretty weak.

Bush won in 2004 convincingly, not even Bill Clinton recieved over 50% of the voters.

Reporters being imprisoned? What about reporters "making up" stories to make one party look bad? or reporting from a location they have never been to?

Everyone deserves tax breaks...Have you ever got a job from a poor person? I haven't.

The enviroment is just fine, and getting better every year.

What freedoms does the Patriot Act infringe upon? Must be the library thing, I personnally don't care who knows what I am reading.

You liberal types love to govern by hate. Democrats have ran on hate for years, and it got them nowhere.

If the Democrats ever actually came up with some good ideas they may actually get some voters back. Bashing Republicans is not a good idea.

On second thought, EastCoastKid keep on believing that President Bush stole the election, and please nominate Hillary Clinton in 2008, please tell the Democrats to keep on hating. I'll sit back for the next 4 years and keep on laughing at the crybaby liberals!

Oh and EastCoastKid you have a nice day, I know I will since I am celebrating the 2 week anniversary of Bush's re election!



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 07:28 PM
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In all that bull headed post, not once did you get my name right
Oh well, I guess Im glad Eastcoast kid caught hell for it instead
This is great, you come in and try and rip me a new one and end up ripping someone else
Your dedication to detail is much like Bushes dedication to being a good president. Half hearted.



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 07:53 PM
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Originally posted by Kidfinger
In all that bull headed post, not once did you get my name right
Oh well, I guess Im glad Eastcoast kid caught hell for it instead
This is great, you come in and try and rip me a new one and end up ripping someone else
Your dedication to detail is much like Bushes dedication to being a good president. Half hearted.


It doesn't take a genius to figure this fraud out. Simply go to Member Center and search for EastCoastKid and you will see thatEastCoastKid stopped posting on 10/30 and KidFinger started posting on 11/16. So unless you stole EastCoastKid's computer you are EastCoastKid

Your style is so unmistakeable I knew this had to be you (EastCoastKid) So I just did a little research and WALA.

Congratulations! You just earned the John Kerry "Flip Flop" award!

Go ahead and change your name again, try to confuse us a little this time though and get the Kid out of your name. That might work a little better.



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 07:59 PM
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BWAAAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHA
Oh my GOD ARE YOU KIDDING ME
Eastcoastkid and I are 2 different people I assure you. We have replied back and fourth between various threads for a few months now. I respect him, and I believe the respect is returned. What you read as our similar style is just that, a similar style. Probably why we can reply to eachothers post and not get al pissy if we dont agree. Every one else on this thread has been trying to have a somewhat civil discussion for the most part. If you want to do the same, thats great. I nvite you to join us. If you just want to throw insults and bull # at me or anyone else on this thread, then I must politely ask you to refrain from replying anymore.



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 08:07 PM
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Originally posted by Kidfinger
BWAAAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHA
Oh my GOD ARE YOU KIDDING ME
Eastcoastkid and I are 2 different people I assure you. We have replied back and fourth between various threads for a few months now. I respect him, and I believe the respect is returned. What you read as our similar style is just that, a similar style. Probably why we can reply to eachothers post and not get al pissy if we dont agree. Every one else on this thread has been trying to have a somewhat civil discussion for the most part. If you want to do the same, thats great. I nvite you to join us. If you just want to throw insults and bull # at me or anyone else on this thread, then I must politely ask you to refrain from replying anymore.



Can I get some moderator help here, to explain why EastCoastKid and KidFinger's posts are merged together in Member Search?

As I believe EastCoastKid and KidFinger are the same person, and are holding conversations with eachother



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by Carseller4
[As I believe EastCoastKid and KidFinger are the same person, and are holding conversations with eachother




HEHEHE, I forgot to take my lithium



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 08:29 PM
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Maybe I am crazy, but when you enter EastCoastKid under a member search and list all posts by EastCoastKid, Kidfinger's posts are listed.

Moderator, can you fix this or prove me right? Need an explanation to this conspiracy theory.



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