If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

This is how I understand it, and it works for me. If you dont agree, that is your choice.

You can pick at my beliefs all you want, why not just accept we all believe what works for us individually, and not try to constantly disprove our beliefs.


We were given free will. We were then exposed to temptation. In order to know the consequences of evil deeds we need to experience them. What is good without evil. We then use our free will to decide which path we want to take. Seems pretty perfect to me.

This works for me. I know it doesnt work for you. Which is cool. Follow and believe what you want. Dont let anyone criticise you for it. We are who we are. We should all respect each other for it.

The Bible is a very complex piece of work, asking us to explain the work of God is like asking a single cell organism to explain quantum physics. I like what it says and it works for me. There are parts I dont understand fully but that is down to my ignorance.

Peace to you all and please just respect others beliefs. Is that too much to ask?

Im bored now of trying to defend my beliefs. Each day on ATS I find myself having to explain why I believe the way I do just for the sole purpose of non believers to pick at them and criticise them. Then after trying to answer questions, being told Im forcing my opinion down others throats. Im just answering questions.
Sometimes I say things and with hindsight realise I have missed the point, then get put down and criticised for it. I am still on my path and have lots to learn. Im enjoying the path I am on and hope you all are too.
The Bible works really well for me and the path Im currently taking.....Just accept that. Im taking a break from this now.
I will never change the way I am just because others dont like it. No-one ever should. (unless you are harming others of course).

Peace.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by veteranhumanbeing

 

I thought Lucifer encouraged the eating of the tree of knowledge , NEVER said NO.

"No" as in, "No, you will not die".

How do you not know that the fruit was actually PICKED from the tree and not from the ground (windstorm catastrophe)?

It says she "took" the fruit.
If she picked it up off the ground, it might have said, "picked it up".

edit on 6-8-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Seriously you need to lighten up, I cant believe you take me even half seriously. You are a bible thumper that takes verbage as exactiude/truth? Took the fruit then; did she eat and expell the fruit and what time time period did that happen, did she then dig up the seeds after being masticated try to plant another tree of knowledge, to make up for eating an apple. Was she (EVE initially confused and thought she was eating from the PEAR OF LIFE) or the Plum of knowledge? YOU must realize Adama and EVA were illiterates, never went to school at all no Latin, no HOME ECONOMICS, they did not know how to cut fleshy furry skins and make garments to cover themselves (were they vegans?) In fact, they could only eat from the trees Labled in SIGN LANGUAGE "Ignorance" "Slightly Sour" "Dummy" "YOU WISH THIS WAS LASAGNA". SHE TOOK THE FRUIT, NO SHE STOLE THE FRUIT, from a tree that was prominent in the garden and told specifically not to eat of it. IF NOT HER who; the worms? Why have the temptation in the first place. Adam was a WUSS, I watched him run away with the serpent cradled in his arms (as if to protect it while Eve got all the blame). You should have been there.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


I wouldn't bother.

They obviously do not want to learn about what the Bible states. They just want pick holes and criticise. He wont accept we are all different with different experiences and therefore different beliefs.

The fact we are members on ATS means we have so much in common with each other. Instead some like to highlight our differences and create divide. If the NSA are monitoring this site (which Im damn sure they are) they must love this. How will we ever stop tyranny if we waste so much time criticising each other for our differences.
We cannot even accept each other, we are just like our governments.........'agree with me or I will ridicule you.'

I am to blame also. We have no hope.!!!

Im new to ATS, I thought it was the ideal place to share thoughts and ideas, instead I have spent most of my time explaining why I believe what I do. I guess Im still learning which threads to avoid.

reply to post by vethumanbeing

You are a bible thumper that takes verbage as exactiude/truth?

I think that the words are important and has to do with why the story was being told.
It has nothing to do with some actual historical events, that of course would be impossible to know.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Here is the true interpretation of the Isaiah quote you gave, I took the time to jump ahead in my project re-translating the Bible, to do this especially for you.

It's quite different to what you thought, and rather comical when you consider you used it for a meaning that opposes its true interpretation.

ISAIAH 50

10) Who of you respecting Yahweh, (I am, we are) hear the spoken words of the servant who walked through the darkness? There is no splendour to those who depend on the name of Yahweh (I am, we are), for salvation through their oaths.

11) They are all consumed by the flame of the 'holy fire' and attached to their beliefs through ties and affiliations of austerity, that are the hands burning society. By this hereby; they must convert and reattach.

I don't think God desires for anyone to reject Him. It's the secondary consequence of free will to choose. He won't force people to love Him.

He surely (according to scripture) forced (through alleged direct action or condoning) many deaths of disbelievers and those that 'rejected'. Plagues and floods and the other violence and such. Seems like a clear force of will on our free choice. Or is there some reason this is irrelevant to your statement.

Created very good ... doesn't mean we stayed very good.
We were given 'free will' ... that can improve upon the state of very good or can destroy it.
Very good can be made better. And we can have a hand in it.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect:
Can an omni-max God do less than perfect?

God, being perfect, made humans less than perfect but with the ability to correct themselves.
This 'glitch' is actually perfection on God's part.
It is better to make humans with this 'glitch' so they can work to improve,
rather than make them perfect and leave them no room for growth and learning.

reply to post by BornOfSin

Here is the true interpretation of the Isaiah quote you gave, I took the time to jump ahead in my project re-translating the Bible, to do this especially for you.

It's quite different to what you thought, and rather comical when you consider you used it for a meaning that opposes its true interpretation.

No, this only proves that scripture is quite different from what YOU think and it's rather comical that you believe for one second that anyone else believes your rewritten interpretation of the Bible is the true one that no one else but you has understood for thousands of years.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

I don't think God desires for anyone to reject Him. It's the secondary consequence of free will to choose. He won't force people to love Him.

He surely (according to scripture) forced (through alleged direct action or condoning) many deaths of disbelievers and those that 'rejected'. Plagues and floods and the other violence and such. Seems like a clear force of will on our free choice. Or is there some reason this is irrelevant to your statement.

edit on 6-8-2013 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)

Actually, it is irrelevant to the statement. Humans aren't given the free will option to decide when/how/if they live or die at the hands of their Creator.

reply to post by FlyersFan

It is better to make humans with this 'glitch' so they can work to improve,
rather than make them perfect and leave them no room for growth and learning.

Better? Why?

If they were made without that 'glitch' they would have no need for the growth and learning to begin with. Not sure how I see that as an ideal.

That's nonsensical and contradictory to perfection. That's what it would mean for us to be made perfect. Perfect! No need for any of that. So why not. Calls into question the omnipotence and omniscience.

Not saying this can't be reconciled, but I think it will take a more elaborate (and wholly different) metaphysical explanation then a simple "God gave us a glitch so we can learn and that's why we weren't made perfect by a perfect being fully capable of making us so'.

Can that explanation be fully satisfied with scripture alone?

Actually it says 'seized/received or to take'.

The interpretation of Genesis is horribly wrong and paints women as evil when in fact it tells of them finding the truth and being empowerment through 'knowledge' of understanding the true interpretations of the Bible.

"Fruit tree" actually refers to the Bible.

When the women saw the goodness of the fruit tree of suffering, they became wise to the loveliness of the tree. And they seized the fruit and consumed it, and gave also to other women to eat from it.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

I thought Lucifer encouraged the eating of the tree of knowledge , NEVER said NO.

"No" as in, "No, you will not die".

How do you not know that the fruit was actually PICKED from the tree and not from the ground (windstorm catastrophe)?

It says she "took" the fruit.
If she picked it up off the ground, it might have said, "picked it up".

edit on 6-8-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

[SNIP]

Leonardo Da Vinci deciphered the same truth as I did. It is in all his paintings.

He was one of the smartest men to have ever lived, I am a certified genius in the top percentile.

Notice the common trait here? It is that we are much smarter than yourself, and therefore should be appreciated as such, as we are able to work things out that you can not. Obviously.

When I release Genesis soon, it will be taken VERY seriously .. Cause the translations are correct. And you will remember every post you made .. and exactly how much egg is on your face.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by BornOfSin

 

Here is the true interpretation of the Isaiah quote you gave, I took the time to jump ahead in my project re-translating the Bible, to do this especially for you.

It's quite different to what you thought, and rather comical when you consider you used it for a meaning that opposes its true interpretation.

No, this only proves that scripture is quite different from what YOU think and it's rather comical that you believe for one second that anyone else believes your rewritten interpretation of the Bible is the true one that no one else but you has understood for thousands of years.

Click here for more information.

reply to post by ctophil

From Hebrews 5:8-9,

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

As you can see here, even Jesus was not perfect until he became perfect. Even with this bit of scripture, the Bible was not talking about perfection in the flesh or physical body. This means that when Jesus ascended into Heaven, then he was perfect.

We need to read some other scriptures to help decipher the true meaning of these verses.

As you can see, "being made perfect" only meant preparing Jesus to be the perfect sacrifice for mankind. It had nothing to do with him having sinned, yet he suffered and was obedient to God until his death, obedient by fulfilling God's will to be a sacrifice for mankind.

Hebrews 2:9-10

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Philippians 2:5-8

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

2 Corinthians 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Peter 2:21-23

21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

Unfortunately this thread is full of myth and untruths.Man was nor created perfect.The nature of perfection is incapable of becoming imperfect.Man does not have free will.That should be a huge sign that something is askew when atheist and the religious believe the same thing as a paramount doctrine...that man does have free will.

Logic goes against this fallacy of a free will.Will is not choosing. The will is the mechanism of thought which a being chooses by.Man makes a multitude of choices in a life however none of them are free of causation.None of them can be traced back to the chooser as the original cause.

If there is a "God "they are sovereign and the cause of all things.That God is responsible for everything.Unlike the many religious who believe they are responsible by their false free will to choose God.No one seeks after God.. no one...God is the seeker and the finder ..anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded as believing they have a will free of causation.

Man was created immature .... imperfect. Babies aren't born mature.They have to grow to live.God is delivering(called salvation in the scriptures) all of mankind to cause them to grow.Of course no one likes God's methods so they have been given a strong delusion to believe a lie..religion...Everything is religion.It is the matrix of the valley of the shadow of death mankind lives in that they perceive as the physical world.Yes it is "real" it is mankind's perception that is skewered.

If man had free will they would never grow and that would be the ultimate death though that is also impossible. God is the creator.God IS spirit not "a" spirit.Spirit is life.God is in everything and everything is in God.(not meaning to get metaphysical it is just a basic fact of reality).It is impossible for God to NOT cause all life.That is Gods nature.

Lack of free will does not make mankind robots or unable to love.Those are false concepts with skewered perception also.Robots are programmed to do a function they don't have a will at all. Their experience does not cause growth at all because that is not it's function.

Love is not an emotion at all.It is a state of being.Loving has nothing to do with the will.To be in a state of love there are no choices only doing.

Man did not sin and become a sinner..Man sins (falls short of the mark of perfection) BECAUSE they are imperfect.They were created imperfect to mature.Salvation is the maturing process.ALL of mankind is being saved.Salvation is not an event.It can't be chosen freely it can only "happen" and none of it is caused by mans false free will.

reply to post by ctophil

John 3:13,

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The above line said literally that no one can go up to Heaven unless he or she came from Heaven in the first place. As I said at the beginning, you must use both literal interpretation and intuition to fully grasp what is saying here. I pointed this out because when Jesus went back to Heaven, he was perfect (not perfection using man's mind, but God's mind. There is a difference. I will get to this point later.). Therefore, he was not perfect when he was on Earth, just like you and I.

First of all, there was only three-in-one who bear record in heaven.

1 John 5:7

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Once again, it might be helpful to read all of the translations of this verse...

John 3:13

John 3:13 (ASV)
13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.

John 3:13 (AMP)
13 And yet no one has ever gone up to heaven, but there is One Who has come down from heaven—the Son of Man [Himself], Who is (dwells, has His home) in heaven.

John 3:13 (CEB)
13 No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Human One.

John 3:13 (CJB)
13 No one has gone up into heaven; there is only the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.

John 3:13 (CEV)
13 No one has gone up to heaven except the Son of Man, who came down from there.

John 3:13 (DARBY)
13 And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

John 3:13 (DRA)
13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.
John 3:13 (ERV)
13 The only one who has ever gone up to heaven is the one who came down from heaven—the Son of Man.

John 3:13 (ESV)
13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

John 3:13 (ESVUK)
13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

John 3:13 (EXB)
13 ·The only one who has ever gone up to heaven is [L No one has gone up into heaven except] the One who came down from heaven—the Son of Man [C a title for the Messiah; Dan. 7:13–14].

John 3:13 (GNV)
13 For no man ascendeth up to heaven, but he that had descended from heaven, that Son of man which is in heaven.

John 3:13 (GW)
13 No one has gone to heaven except the Son of Man, who came from heaven.

John 3:13 (GNT)
13 And no one has ever gone up to heaven except the Son of Man, who came down from heaven.”

John 3:13 (HCSB)
13 No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.

Originally posted by Greatest I am

If we are part of God and are imperfect and in need of salvation then God cannot be perfect as we, being a part of him are not.

Why do we need salvation if created imperfect in the first place?
We cannot help being as created.


Let's cut to the chase now as this is getting stupid.

No, it's getting paradoxical. And that's ok.

Remember this?

"Most true things are stated in paradoxes." -Lao Tzu

If you're going to probe the mysteries of God, then you had better have a high tolerance for paradox and ambiguity. If not then pack up your bags and go back home.

That's the chase I cut to.

"Live at the empty heart of paradox. I'll dance with you there, cheek to cheek." -Rumi

You speak of what God does above with boundaries etc.

How do you know this to be true?

I know from a combination of scholarship and personal (mystical) experience.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I don't think God desires for anyone to reject Him. It's the secondary consequence of free will to choose. He won't force people to love Him.

This is as far as I got and I have to ask:
God is not forcing us to love him, as apparently he gave us free will. But if we don't love him [reject] then we WILL end up in hell and are tortured for eternity.
So in effect we are not free at all as we have to choose between believing or eternal pain?

How is that in any way loving, caring or acceptable.
It was exactly this 'crazy mindset' of god that turned me one day from a sort of fletchling believer [I was 16] to a hardcore atheist and to rub it in even more, a theoretical Satanist [as described in Revelations].

In all earnest, if you can't find a decent answer as to why god is so contradictory, then the most simple answer is:

There is no god.

Nature is our mother, everything works on equilibrium and there is no good or bad because everything HAS to obey the natural laws of this universe. If you are a bastard and get away with it and have lots of offspring then nothing at all will happen to you when you die because you did what you were supposed to do, procreate. You only have yourself to answer to [and of course being a bastard may make your life a misery [or not], doesn't really matter in nature].

The rest is all made up by humans, based on humans and our [chemical] feelings and fear.
To be truly free you have to let go of the notion of a god. I remember when I did, it was as if a large boulder was taken off my chest.

You know what, still I am one of the most just people you could meet. I know right from wrong and will not do any harm to any creatures if I can help it [I even save flies..]. I love and respect nature, it works, it works so well without humans and of course it works so well because there is NO god.

Ads soon as humans get their sticky hands into something they muck it up, that includes the beautiful equilibrium of all living beings. For millions of years all is fine but then the stinky little human comes along and thinks it knows better than nature and hey presto [Fukushima, global warming, extinction of many species and all the other things we have completely ruined].

Sometimes I am ashamed to be human. If god [existed] was anything like us, he can go where the sun don't shine.

Originally posted by guitarplayer
You need to start at the beginning not in the middle or the end of the bible. God created man and woman perfectly yet they were seduced by the serpent (satan) and fell from grace. Christ was not murdered as you say He laid His life down as a perfect sacrifice. He laid it down and took it back up again. Those who are carnally minded cannot perceive spiritual things.

I thought Lucifer was satan? And he was an angel first then rebelled and all that jazz. So Satan existed as a snake before Lucifer? Chalk up another unexplainable contradiction for Christianity haha. No but seriously all that stuff was made up for white people to believe.

Originally posted by BornOfSin
This is the essence of the difference between meditation and 'praying'.

Praying is detachment, begging for someone else to help you cause you are flawed and too lazy to work it out for yourself.

I solicit (pray) to my spirit guide, to my friends in spirit, to assist me every day. It's not laziness, it certainly is due to imperfection and most positively it is due to that fact that they are a lot smarter than I am.

Meditation is the path to the true Divinity that lies inside of us all that begins with enlightenment to the 'I AM' of our existence. Where one learns to balance themselves.

The answers are not in the Bible unless you decode the teachings properly. You need to decipher the hidden meanings, to understand it.

There are a significant number of enlightened, spiritually advanced earth people who have never read nor ever will read the Bible or any other of the holy works. That says something important to me.