If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by Jim Scott
God created man in His own image, after His likeness, in Gen 1:26. Man fell due to a lie told to Eve by Adam, which opened a door for evil. Children would then no longer be in the image and likeness of God, but in the image and likeness of Man (Gen 5:1).

Likeness as in perfect?

What lie did Adam tell Eve?

Regards
DL

Good question.

reply to post by Greatest I am

Your book say he has infinite patience.

No it doesn't. It says His patience is very long, but it also says there is an appointed time for judgment. Even the demons Christ cast out were asking Him if He was going to send them to the Abyss before the "appointed time".

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Why did God give us natures that he knew would go against him and sin and since we cannot help but sin from what you say, why would he punish us for just following the natures he gave us that force us to sin?

Because love isn't love unless it's freely given. If I were God I would not create robots either, but creatures who were capable of choosing to love me back. The secondary consequence of that is the knowledge that some of those creatures would choose not to love back.

edit on 5-8-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Yes. Scriptures show that the vast majority of us are predestined to go to hell.

Have you and your love ever been rejected?

Did you wish the one who rejected you be uselessly tortured just because he or she rejected you?

Do you not think that God is a prick for letting hate consume him just for being rejected?

Did he follow his own teachings and ---- Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. --- and did he let himself be overcome and give evil for evil instead of good?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Your book say he has infinite patience.

No it doesn't. It says His patience is very long, but it also says there is an appointed time for judgment. Even the demons Christ cast out were asking Him if He was going to send them to the Abyss before the "appointed time".

Who recorded this?

Let me remind you that this is all in the O T and even the Jews know that Moses did not right it as it is impossible for him to write of his own death. Jews know that the O T is all myth.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


I don't think God desires for anyone to reject Him. It's the secondary consequence of free will to choose. He won't force people to love Him.

reply to post by Greatest I am


I think Aaron finished the last book of Moses.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by Jim Scott
God created man in His own image, after His likeness, in Gen 1:26. Man fell due to a lie told to Eve by Adam, which opened a door for evil. Children would then no longer be in the image and likeness of God, but in the image and likeness of Man (Gen 5:1).

Likeness as in perfect?

What lie did Adam tell Eve?

Regards
DL

Good question.

Adam told Eve that if she touched the fruit, she would die.

reply to post by Jim Scott

Adam told Eve that if she touched the fruit, she would die.

The word here translated as "touch" can mean to gather, as in reaping, so it is directly connected to the eating, where first you have to draw the fruit from the tree.
So there was no lie being told in connection with the use of that word.
The lie was from the serpent, when he said "No".

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Jim Scott

 

Adam told Eve that if she touched the fruit, she would die.

The word here translated as "touch" can mean to gather, as in reaping, so it is directly connected to the eating, where first you have to draw the fruit from the tree.
So there was no lie being told in connection with the use of that word.
The lie was from the serpent, when he said "No".

What? I thought Lucifer encouraged the eating of the tree of knowledge , NEVER said NO. How do you not know that the fruit was actually PICKED from the tree and not from the ground (windstorm catastrophy). Wizard of OZ, the animated apple tree slapped Dorothy's hand (metaphor) dont pick an apple from a tree that wishes its fruit to fall on the ground to ROT, or have NO fruition (fell on sterile ground).

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I don't think God desires for anyone to reject Him. It's the secondary consequence of free will to choose. He won't force people to love Him.

God doesnt care, its an experiment. There are no other consequences other than humans succeed in not oblitererating themselves or succeed in obliterating themselves (no fault other than perhaps a inaction to keep it from happening). When do we take control of ourselves? Is that the point---as in GROW UP?.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

Did the Christian God create us sick and order us to be well?

www.youtube.com...

Salvation can only be had by believers if they embrace barbaric human sacrifice and a God who will immorally have his own son murdered as a sacrifice to forgive sin when other more moral ways are preached in scriptures.

Matthew 7:17,18
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Christians would have us think that God, the good tree, --- produced corrupt fruit. Scriptures say that that is not possible. If you believe scriptures that say God is perfect that is.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

If God creates perfect works and souls, how can man not be perfect?

If perfect, why would we need salvation?

Regards
DL

First of all, I would like to re-emphasize that the Bible scriptures are not infallible (not the Word of God, it is man's understanding of God during its time period), yet you must read it with not just literal meanings but also with intuition in order to decipher its symbolism. I would like to use the scriptures with the following quote to begin:

From Hebrews 5:8-9,

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

As you can see here, even Jesus was not perfect until he became perfect. Even with this bit of scripture, the Bible was not talking about perfection in the flesh or physical body. This means that when Jesus ascended into Heaven, then he was perfect. What does all this mean? I will get to it in a moment. Let's read some more scripture.

John 3:13,

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The above line said literally that no one can go up to Heaven unless he or she came from Heaven in the first place. As I said at the beginning, you must use both literal interpretation and intuition to fully grasp what is saying here. I pointed this out because when Jesus went back to Heaven, he was perfect (not perfection using man's mind, but God's mind. There is a difference. I will get to this point later.). Therefore, he was not perfect when he was on Earth, just like you and I.

Now with that in mind, I want you to read a previous post I wrote about where we came from: www.abovetopsecret.com...

It's important that you read the above post. If not, you are not going to understand what I'm about to say. We were created by God's consciousness, which means He split his mind into many pieces. Each piece became one person embodied here on the Physical Plane (Earth is a small fragment of it). This little mind piece was created perfect. This mind piece...let's call it the Conscious Self from now on. When the Conscious Self lowered itself into the 7th Sphere (Material Universe in which we live now), it had to create a vehicle in order for it to exist in the Physical Plane. Without this vehicle, there was no way for it to interact, express, and manipulate the new reality. This vehicle we call the Soul, which has four parts: Physical Body, Emotional Body, Mental Body, and Identity Body. All these bodies correspond to the Four Planes of Existence in the above mentioned post. Here is the key to understand: The Soul was created by the Conscious Self or by you, not by God. In this low vibration of the Physical Plane, The Soul that you created is Not Perfect. The Soul even created its own self-existence called the Ego, which most of us here know what it is. It is far from perfect.

Let's go back to the scriptures about how you must come from Heaven before you can ascend back to Heaven. What this means is that the Conscious Self was created from Heaven. Therefore, only the Conscious Self can come back into Heaven, NOT THE SOUL (which did not come from Heaven). So before you go back to Heaven, the Soul and its Ego must die. Then, you can go back to Heaven and become the Perfect Being you have always been.

Now, the truth to Salvation is to raise your consciousness to a high level. You must seek the Kingdom of Heaven within you, NOT an outside savior like Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad, or Krishna. No one can save you but yourself. Kill the ego by putting on the Mind of God and let the Mind of Man die as well. To begin, get out of the Mental Box of an outside savior, look within, not without. The Mind of God sees perfection not based on human values but with divine vision or with no ego.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I don't think God desires for anyone to reject Him. It's the secondary consequence of free will to choose. He won't force people to love Him.

God doesnt care, its an experiment. There are no other consequences other than humans succeed in not oblitererating themselves or succeed in obliterating themselves (no fault other than perhaps a inaction to keep it from happening). When do we take control of ourselves? Is that the point---as in GROW UP?.

If God doesn't care He wouldn't have went through the trouble in creating man in His image and likeness to begin with. Or sent His own Son to die for our redemption.

reply to post by ctophil

You must seek the Kingdom of Heaven within you, NOT an outside savior like Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad, or Krishna. No one can save you but yourself.

Do you realize you just contradicted the entire bible, and God himself? If you are your own Savior, then that defeats the entire purpose of Christ's work at Cavalry. The process for salvation is to repent and then atone, by repent you change your mind from doing wrong and by atonement you place yourself under Christ.

God specifically warned not to make for yourself fake spirituality:

Isaiah 50:10-11

10 “Who among you fears the Lord?
Who obeys the voice of His Servant?
Who walks in darkness
And has no light?
Let him trust in the name of the Lord
And rely upon his God.
11 Look, all you who kindle a fire,
Who encircle yourselves with sparks:
Walk in the light of your fire and in the sparks you have kindled—
This you shall have from My hand:
You shall lie down in torment.

Verse 11 is not talking about building campfires and holding hands to sing songs, this is talking about fake spirituality, what does not come from him comes from you and what comes from you is death.

God is perfect, thus his creations must be perfect, then why do humans need salvation?
If God is all good, then his creations must be good, correct? But because he gave us 'free will' we had a choice and chose wrong, we admitted evil, which god claims to have no doing with, making a break in Christian logic
If God is perfect(so as the bible claims), then god would be able to see what mankind would do, so why did he allow it to happen? He allowed evil to happen yet did not stop it.
All good questions and thoughts to ponder

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

I don't think God desires for anyone to reject Him. It's the secondary consequence of free will to choose. He won't force people to love Him.

veteranhumanbeing
God doesnt care, its an experiment. There are no other consequences other than humans succeed in not oblitererating themselves or succeed in obliterating themselves (no fault other than perhaps an inaction to keep it from happening). When do we take control of ourselves? Is that the point---as in GROW UP/BECOME ONE WITH?.

NOTurTypical
If God doesn't care He wouldn't have went through the trouble in creating man in His image and likeness to begin with. Or sent His own Son to die for our redemption.

God shouldnt have bothered in the first place. His human is flawed and allowed corruption to take place within its creation. The human created God, God exists only because the HUMAN says so. Without the human God ceases to exist; the only reason we exist is to explain the God Partical to the God human.We are Gods sons and daughters IN THE FLESH AND BONE. Living now as human prototypes for all of Gods WISDOM. WE ARE the JESUS ARCHITYPE the human. Jesus was just a signafore, a standard, a flag to recognise ourselves as HIM) or PON,PON,PON, Securitee Securitee,Securitee, MAYDAY,MAYDAY,MAYDAY. How severe is/ was your spiritual SHIPWRECK? and why do you have to have one? Can you not recognise you are in charge of your spirit and let no one touch that sanctity that is YOURS ALONE.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I don't think God desires for anyone to reject Him. It's the secondary consequence of free will to choose. He won't force people to love Him.

He/God has never invited me to a dinner party and in so NOT getting the invitation does not recognise me; It is his will to reject me and the secondary consequence is not so bad, I dont have to bring a case of wine; put up with his loudmouth wife, his sons (still jobless), homeless daughters and Gypsy Carnival INLAWS.

This is because 'perfection' refers to 'balance'

One who is in balance of light and dark.

This is the essence of the difference between meditation and 'praying'.

Praying is detachment, begging for someone else to help you cause you are flawed and too lazy to work it out for yourself.

Meditation is the path to the true Divinity that lies inside of us all that begins with enlightenment to the 'I AM' of our existence. Where one learns to balance themselves.

The answers are not in the Bible unless you decode the teachings properly. You need to decipher the hidden meanings, to understand it.

It DOES NOT contradict the teachings.

It only contradicts the incorrect interpretation of the teachings that was given to us by greedy Romans and masked purposely to prevent us from knowing the truth of our own Divine nature.

What you said is an example of the sad state of affairs in this world where people so easily believe what 'they are told' instead of seeking the TRUTH themselves.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by ctophil

 

You must seek the Kingdom of Heaven within you, NOT an outside savior like Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad, or Krishna. No one can save you but yourself.

Do you realize you just contradicted the entire bible, and God himself? If you are your own Savior, then that defeats the entire purpose of Christ's work at Cavalry. The process for salvation is to repent and then atone, by repent you change your mind from doing wrong and by atonement you place yourself under Christ.

God specifically warned not to make for yourself fake spirituality:

Isaiah 50:10-11

10 “Who among you fears the Lord?
Who obeys the voice of His Servant?
Who walks in darkness
And has no light?
Let him trust in the name of the Lord
And rely upon his God.
11 Look, all you who kindle a fire,
Who encircle yourselves with sparks:
Walk in the light of your fire and in the sparks you have kindled—
This you shall have from My hand:
You shall lie down in torment.

Verse 11 is not talking about building campfires and holding hands to sing songs, this is talking about fake spirituality, what does not come from him comes from you and what comes from you is death.

The thing that gets to me is why some atheists laugh or call a willing sacrifice archaic when simple logic states you sacrifice time for money, You sacrifice enjoyment for knowledge, You sacrifice something everyday for something else but the idea of someone sacrificing their life out of love for humanity is well fairy tales even when after 2000 years his ideas are still being taught. Question is why has it this survived for sooo long if not by some divine intervention. It could have died long ago but amazingly has gotten stronger over the years why?

reply to post by vethumanbeing

I thought Lucifer encouraged the eating of the tree of knowledge , NEVER said NO.

"No" as in, "No, you will not die".

How do you not know that the fruit was actually PICKED from the tree and not from the ground (windstorm catastrophe)?

It says she "took" the fruit.
If she picked it up off the ground, it might have said, "picked it up".